The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Jibba Jabba > War, Religion and Politics Thread
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-04-2013, 05:44 PM   #451
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
I've got a shotgun and a pistol. Ergo, I do not need some bloated military to protect me or my home. I can do that myself. I was in the Army Infantry. I know what to do. Ergo, I refuse to pay any portion of taxes that go to support a military. I no longer have children in school, so I refuse to pay for education too. I'm opting out.
Why do you remain a US citizen if you don't believe in the US Constitution?
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 05:46 PM   #452
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda View Post

There's obviously better ways to affordable healthcare, but we're apparently not ready for some form of a single payer system yet in this country. The powers that be are still able to block this.
Single-payer is a failing system who's costs rise faster than inflation. Single-payer costs almost as the US deadly mix of public and private spending, while offering inferior care.
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 06:09 PM   #453
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda View Post
The ACA will help many people who need it. It will save countless lives.
You are incorrect. Hospitals are not allowed to turn away patrons. Medicare, Medicaid, CICP (in Colorado), all exist for people who cannot afford medical care.

The US system does not have a problem with access to care, it has a problem with cost. Obamacare increases costs.
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 06:49 PM   #454
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
You are incorrect. Hospitals are not allowed to turn away patrons. Medicare, Medicaid, CICP (in Colorado), all exist for people who cannot afford medical care.

The US system does not have a problem with access to care, it has a problem with cost. Obamacare increases costs.
Who pays for those who cannot pay or be turned away?
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 07:02 PM   #455
DenverBrit
Just hanging out.
 
DenverBrit's Avatar
 
Got a breath mint??

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 12,263

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Team
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
You obviously don't know how to read.

Singapore's healthcare system consists of a PRIVATE practice component (free market), where they carefully disallow government spending (which keeps prices low).

The other component of Singapore's healthcare system is PUBLIC hospital/end of life where there are heavy government regulations to keep taxpayer liability at a minimum.

That's exactly what I propose for the U.S. A separation of the two systems, where the quality would remain the best in the world, but the cost would drop down to less than 5% of GDP.

Do you get that? Two components, PUBLIC (government regulated) and PRIVATE (free market).
No one is arguing there isn't a private component in Singapore.....most every industrialized country has both.

However, as I keep telling you....it is HEAVILY REGULATED. Are you unable to understand that basic truth??

Quote:
Government oversight

THE real secret, in my view, to Singapore’s successful cost containment is not “markets” per se but “strong government”.

There is no “invisible hand” in Singapore’s health-care market; the controlling hand is that of the government.

The health-care market works not through consumer influence but through adroit exploitation of the Government’s simultaneous roles as regulator, largest provider and largest single buyer of health- care services.

Unlike, say, in eateries or retail where the Government sets and enforces the rules and then sits back to let “creative destruction” work its effects, in health care the Government is more interventionist.

For example, the Government influences prices through subsidies, Medisave and MediShield, influences practices through the government-owned hospitals and regulates tightly the number of hospitals and health-care professionals nationally.

The Government to a large extent controls the public narrative: By deciding what to subsidize, what not to subsidize and how much to subsidize, the Ministry of Health keeps a firm grip on what treatments become mainstream, and shapes the price points.

It is not the market but the multiple roles the Government plays in health care that has enabled success. Former head of the Civil Service Lim Siong Guan once said: “What is absolutely key to understanding Singapore’s success in applying market systems to public problems is the centrality of the state in assessing, controlling and regulating the market. The hallmark of Singapore’s use of the market has been strong government control and oversight.”

This interventionist stance is not surreptitious; the Government unashamedly acknowledges this, declaring in the 1993 White Paper on Affordable Health Care that it must “intervene to prevent health-care costs from consuming a disproportionate share of the nation’s or a family’s resources”.
http://insightshealthassociates.word...in-healthcare/

If you still don't 'understand,' go find a grownup!
DenverBrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 07:08 PM   #456
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Who pays for those who cannot pay or be turned away?
Taxpayers, or the hospital writes it down. So in effect, Obamacare does nothing except increase costs for everybody.

No one is turned away, ever.

All that was really necessary was a small bill, possibly placing extra costs of pre-existing conditions into state coffers, although I believe that is already an option too.
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #457
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,574

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
Taxpayers, or the hospital writes it down. So in effect, Obamacare does nothing except increase costs for everybody.

No one is turned away, ever.

All that was really necessary was a small bill, possibly placing extra costs of pre-existing conditions into state coffers, although I believe that is already an option too.
CBO estimated there'd still be tens of millions of uninsured. Even as they probably overestimated how many uninsured would pick up insurance.

So the fundamental question still remains. What are we going to do with millions of people who refuse to purchase coverage. Can they be refused treatment now? If not, what did O-Care really accomplish?
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 08:46 PM   #458
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBrit View Post

If you still don't 'understand,' go find a grownup!
Your article refers to the PUBLIC part of Singapore's system. Not the PRIVATE part.

PUBLIC is highly regulated (as it should be to keep taxpayer liability low), the PRIVATE (free market) is not.

Last edited by pricejj; 10-04-2013 at 08:51 PM..
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 09:26 PM   #459
Bronco Yoda
.
 
Bronco Yoda's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,606
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
Haven't seen Baja around here for quite a while. Hope they didn't decapitate him down there.
Hopefully it's not a jesse in breaking sort of situation. He's chained up with a dog collar forced to pick budds in a marijuana Forrest somewhere.
Bronco Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 09:28 PM   #460
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBII View Post
CBO estimated there'd still be tens of millions of uninsured. Even as they probably overestimated how many uninsured would pick up insurance.

So the fundamental question still remains. What are we going to do with millions of people who refuse to purchase coverage. Can they be refused treatment now? If not, what did O-Care really accomplish?
People who don't want insurance have never been a major issue. Socialists are eager to overestimate the free-rider problem.

The real issue is of course overall cost, which Obamacare only makes worse.

Fortunately, there are dozens of simple cost-cutting measures that can be easily implemented once Obama is out of power. Once he's gone, no one will care to be tied to his legacy, in fact they will want to distance themselves from it.

This firestorm is not going away. Hillary will claim she can 'fix it', but will have zero credibility. The Socialists have no ideas.

Yet the solution remains clear.
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 09:50 PM   #461
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
People who don't want insurance have never been a major issue. Socialists are eager to overestimate the free-rider problem.

The real issue is of course overall cost, which Obamacare only makes worse.

Fortunately, there are dozens of simple cost-cutting measures that can be easily implemented once Obama is out of power. Once he's gone, no one will care to be tied to his legacy, in fact they will want to distance themselves from it.

This firestorm is not going away. Hillary will claim she can 'fix it', but will have zero credibility. The Socialists have no ideas.

Yet the solution remains clear.
I love how you keep calling Democrats socialists...other than the fact that it shows you have no ****ing clue what socialism is, it makes me laugh...

And I think I'm going to start referring to you as "Jesusers". It's about as accurate...probably moreso.

houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 10:45 PM   #462
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
I love how you keep calling Democrats socialists...other than the fact that it shows you have no ****ing clue what socialism is, it makes me laugh...

And I think I'm going to start referring to you as "Jesusers". It's about as accurate...probably moreso.


Yes, your party has been hi-jacked by people like Obama, Reid, and Pelosi who want a Western European style Socialist Democracy here in the U.S.

I voted for Bill Clinton, who is nothing like what your party has become. I will never vote for another Democrat again. Why? Because the policies they have come to promote are highly destructive to society.

Here is the definition of a Socialist Democracy since YOU obviously don't know:

Wiki -
Social democracy is a political ideology that officially has as its goal the establishment of democratic socialism through reformist and gradualist methods. Alternatively, social democracy is defined as a policy regime involving a universal welfare state and collective bargaining schemes within the framework of a capitalist economy. It is often used in this manner to refer to the social models and economic policies prominent in Western and Northern Europe during the later half of the 20th century.
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 10:56 PM   #463
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

In fact, Western European Social Democracies are far to the right of the Obama administration.

At least Europeans require EVERYONE with a job to pay for their healthcare. Here, you don't have to pay for ANYTHING (Foodstamps, Section 8, Medicaid) if you make under a certain threshold.

If American taxpayers weren't such a dynamo, this country would be screwed worse than Western Europe. Indeed the seeds of destruction have already been planted.
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 11:10 PM   #464
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Oh, I almost forgot the Earned Income Tax Credit.


A single mother of 2 can make more than $5k a year off of taxpayers without having to pay a dime in federal tax.

All you need to do is have a couple kids, leave the father, work a crappy intermittent job for a few hours a week, and you can make just as much disposable income as somebody making $50k per year. Yes, you too can be rich without barely having to lift a finger (if you play the system right). Don't think it's isolated. Millions more people figure out how to game the system every single year, all they have to do is look around.

Not only will Obamacare continue to raise health care costs, but it will further contribute to the destruction of the American family (and thus America), with it's highly redistributive mechanisms.

Last edited by pricejj; 10-04-2013 at 11:13 PM..
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 11:11 PM   #465
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Whatever you say, Jesuser.

Tell us more about Singapore.

houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 11:18 PM   #466
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Whatever you say, Jesuser.

What? That doesn't even make sense. Lulz. You know what they say about assumptions.

How's it going in the crappy state of Michigan? I heard credit is getting a little tight up there. Detroit is a veritable Socialist utopia.
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 11:30 PM   #467
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
What? That doesn't even make sense. Lulz. You know what they say about assumptions.

How's it going in the crappy state of Michigan? I heard credit is getting a little tight up there. Detroit is a veritable Socialist utopia.


Might want to ask the Republican governor, Senate and House, who have only made things worse. Can't wait until the election.

Anyhoo... Detroit isn't representative of the state, and they clearly didn't know when the American auto industry had passed its prime.

Also, you apparently never read my posts, because I haven't lived there in close to 10 years. I've lived in red states for the past 6, and I can tell you...Michigan is doing far better.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 06:49 AM   #468
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,574

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post


Might want to ask the Republican governor, Senate and House, who have only made things worse. Can't wait until the election.

Anyhoo... Detroit isn't representative of the state, and they clearly didn't know when the American auto industry had passed its prime.

Also, you apparently never read my posts, because I haven't lived there in close to 10 years. I've lived in red states for the past 6, and I can tell you...Michigan is doing far better.
http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm



Well at least they've moved up the list a couple notches since old Let Them Eat Taxes Granholm left office.

Last edited by BroncoBeavis; 10-05-2013 at 06:59 AM..
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 07:01 AM   #469
barryr
Ring of Famer
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 9,594

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Wow, another government program that is poorly planned and a mess. A real shocker, but the Obama supporters no matter what happens and his media are too busy sucking his nuts to see what is really happening in the real world.
barryr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 07:16 AM   #470
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBII View Post
http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm



Well at least they've moved up the list a couple notches since old Let Them Eat Taxes Granholm left office.
That's what tying your entire economy to a dying industry will do for you.

Really funny to laugh at other people's misfortune, though.

Stay classy.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 07:31 AM   #471
DenverBrit
Just hanging out.
 
DenverBrit's Avatar
 
Got a breath mint??

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 12,263

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Team
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
Your article refers to the PUBLIC part of Singapore's system. Not the PRIVATE part.

PUBLIC is highly regulated (as it should be to keep taxpayer liability low), the PRIVATE (free market) is not.
It's ALL regulated. We had this same debate a while ago,guess what? It's still regulated.

Quote:
What is absolutely key to understanding Singapore’s success in applying market systems to public problems is the centrality of the state in assessing, controlling and regulating the market. The hallmark of Singapore’s use of the market has been strong government control and oversight.”
Quote:
Another key focus of the Government has been to ensure that overall health expenditure does not fall victim to the significant inflationary pressures that have been evident throughout the world. This has been achieved by actively regulating the supply and prices of healthcare services in the country.

Although the Singapore health system has been very successful, it is a very difficult system to replicate in many other countries for several reasons:

Singapore has developed its system concurrently with the development of the country over a number of years under the backdrop of political stability enabling successive governments to introduce consistent measures relating to individual responsibility, compulsory savings and regulatory control of healthcare services and costs
DenverBrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #472
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,574

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
That's what tying your entire economy to a dying industry will do for you.

Really funny to laugh at other people's misfortune, though.

Stay classy.
I'm laughing at you tellin' everyone it ain't so bad.
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #473
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,574

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBrit View Post
It's ALL regulated. We had this same debate a while ago,guess what? It's still regulated.
You really think 'private' health care in the US isn't heavily regulated?
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 01:23 PM   #474
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBrit View Post
It's ALL regulated. We had this same debate a while ago,guess what? It's still regulated.
No it's not. Get your facts straight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Singapore

"The government regularly adjusts policies to actively regulate "the supply and prices of healthcare services in the country" in an attempt to keep costs in check. However, for the most part the government does not directly regulate the costs of private medical care. These costs are largely subject to market forces, and vary enormously within the private sector, depending on the medical specialty and service provided."
pricejj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 01:50 PM   #475
W*GS
Ring of Famer
 
W*GS's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 20,662
Default

I love how the righties adore Singapore. It's an authoritarian system with no pretenses about liberty, freedom, rights... Just like the Right's wet dreams.
W*GS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:45 PM.


Denver Broncos