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Old 10-03-2013, 09:38 PM   #401
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The House IS trying to change it, by giving an opt-out, and by eliminating subsidies to Congress staffers. That's a 1st step.

Obama and Reid REFUSE to change any piece of the bill, except what they illegally ignore.
Trying to alter the PPACA by force is the wrong way. I welcome serious proposals for reform from repubs once the system is in place and we can see it's actual shortcomings.

Right now it's safe to say that any "reforms" the repubs are proposing under the threat of continued partial government shutdown are only thinly disguised efforts to defund and repeal -- their publicly stated goal.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:39 PM   #402
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Wow. witty comeback. You don't have anything to say, because Socialism doesn't work. It's been proven through the history of time. Look at Europe now. Even with ZIRP, and printing Euro's as fast as they can, their economy is still stagnant. Unemployment is still sky high.

ALL of the signs of Socialism's failure are there before your face, but you refuse to see them. Like a blind dog, you amble this way and that.

Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare have spiraled healthcare costs out of control. Obamacare only makes it worse.
I'm a Socialist?

You really are the most clueless of posters. You spent hours arguing that the Singapore health system was 'free market' and a perfect model for the US.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:58 PM   #403
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I'm a Socialist?

You really are the most clueless of posters. You spent hours arguing that the Singapore health system was 'free market' and a perfect model for the US.
The US and Singapore are much closer to each other than you may think.

Yes, direct payment from patients to doctors in a free market private healthcare system is the only sustainable method.

For hospital, or end of life care, a separate system should exist in which there are well-established pricing mechanisms, in order to keep healthcare spending below 5% of GDP.


All the US has to do to cut costs drastically (like Singapore) is separate the private and public healthcare systems. There should be no subsidies in the private system. The public system should be well regulated. It's really very easy.

Obamacare does NOTHING to make the US system better or cheaper.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:20 PM   #404
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The US and Singapore are much closer to each other than you may think.

Yes, direct payment from patients to doctors in a free market private healthcare system is the only sustainable method.

For hospital, or end of life care, a separate system should exist in which there are well-established pricing mechanisms, in order to keep healthcare spending below 5% of GDP.


All the US has to do to cut costs drastically (like Singapore) is separate the private and public healthcare systems. There should be no subsidies in the private system. The public system should be well regulated. It's really very easy.

Obamacare does NOTHING to make the US system better or cheaper.
Again, you fail to understand how the system works. Contributions are MANDATED and Government puts a cap on the cost of healthcare and provides subsidies. It's socialism at its best.

You're a socialist, come out of the closet.

Health Care in Singapore: What’s the Secret?


Quote:

Even Medisave isn’t entirely consistent with the vision of American
consumer-driven reformers: savings are compulsory. Every citizen gets
40 percent of his or her income deducted by Singapore’s Central
Provident fund, which distributes the money for programs like
retirement funds and Medisave. When all is said and done, the
government deducts between 6.5 and 8.5 percent of workers’ pre-tax
income to be re-directed to their Medisave account, with the percentage
varying according to age.

In other words, the Singaporean government mandates savings and funds
those savings by re-distributing compulsory contributions. This helps
to maintain a relatively stable level of savings that you wouldn’t get
in a save-only-what-you-want HSA system like the one advocates push for
in the U.S.

The government also put price caps on all services and procedures
delivered in public hospitals, which provide 80 percent of hospital
care in Singapore. These caps apply not only to procedures like
surgery, but also to ward stays. So while patients are in fact able to
choose between types of accommodations for a price, those prices are
fixed by the government (except in the case of private hospitals, which
can charge whatever they want). Further, beginning in 2009,
subsidization for hospital stays will no longer be a universal
privilege. The government will introduce a means-testing program to make sure that only poorer citizens who need subsidization actually receive it.

Singapore’s government also put hospitals on a budget, setting a
predetermined amount to be given to hospitals each year, so that they
would not have a blank check to provide an open-ended number of
treatments and hospital stays. Similarly, the government set a limit on
the number of beds a hospital could have, to make sure that patient
volume was managed efficiently.
Quote:
One of the most noteworthy changes that the government instituted was a
set of reforms aimed at streamlining Singapore’s mostly-private
physician workforce. In the late 1990s, the Ministry of Health noticed
that “countries with more doctors tend to spend more on health care”
and took steps to make sure that Singapore was not supporting more
physicians than it needed.

According to Michael Barr, an Australian historian who specializes in Singapore, the government instituted controls
on the number of medical graduates produced by local universities and
reduced the number of overseas medical schools whose degrees were
recognized in Singapore from 176 to 28. . It also set a limit on the
proportion of the physician workforce that could be specialists at any
given time (40 percent).
Much more here....http://www.healthbeatblog.com/2008/07/health-care-in-2/
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:33 PM   #405
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Again, you fail to understand how the system works. Contributions are MANDATED and Government puts a cap on the cost of healthcare and provides subsidies. It's socialism at its best.

You're a socialist, come out of the closet.

Health Care in Singapore: What’s the Secret?






Much more here....http://www.healthbeatblog.com/2008/07/health-care-in-2/
Hey. Lookit all dem gubment regulations! Death to Signaporecare!

Last edited by The Lone Bolt; 10-03-2013 at 10:39 PM..
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:38 PM   #406
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Again, you fail to understand how the system works. Contributions are MANDATED and Government puts a cap on the cost of healthcare and provides subsidies. It's socialism at its best.
Contributions to YOUR OWN HSA. You and your employer's contributions total 6% of salary and can be used for education, real estate, retirement, or health care.

Government puts a cap on the cost of care in the PUBLIC hospital/end of life system. Exactly like I stated.

The private family practice system is UNTOUCHED by government spending in any way, shape, or form. The private system is FREE MARKET.


There is a fee for ALL services in order to eliminate over-utilization of healthcare.



Like Singapore, the US is a 4-payer system. Unfortunately, the presence of government spending in the private market (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare) have skyrocketed healthcare costs.

Once the Democrats (like you) get your head out of your ass, and stop promoting unsustainable, complete government controlled, non-innovative, inhumane systems like single-payer...we can all go towards a very inexpensive, sustainable, best-of-all-worlds system.

It requires a complete separation from public and private spending.


Unfortunately, you guys are getting played like a cheap fiddle and swallow Socialism hook, line, and sinker.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:42 PM   #407
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You refuse to give us an opt-out, because you claim you want to eliminate the "free-rider" problem.

Allow us to opt-out with mandatory contributions to HSA's (let us keep our money), which would completely eliminate the problem.


Obama and Reid don't want that. They want complete control for the ruling class.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:43 PM   #408
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Contributions to YOUR OWN HSA. You and your employer's contributions total 6% of salary and can be used for education, real estate, retirement, or health care.

Government puts a cap on the cost of care in the PUBLIC hospital/end of life system. Exactly like I stated.

The private family practice system is UNTOUCHED by government spending in any way, shape, or form. The private system is FREE MARKET.


There is a fee for ALL services in order to eliminate over-utilization of healthcare.

Like Singapore, the US is a 4-payer system. Unfortunately, the presence of government spending in the private market (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare) have skyrocketed healthcare costs.

Once the Democrats (like you) get your head out of your ass, and stop promoting unsustainable, complete government controlled, non-innovative, inhumane systems like single-payer...we can all go towards a very inexpensive, sustainable, best-of-all-worlds system.

It requires a complete separation from public and private spending.


Unfortunately, you guys are getting played like a cheap fiddle and swallow Socialism hook, line, and sinker.
Well looks like you got all the answers. Are you writing the GOP leadership to endorse your brilliant plan?
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:44 PM   #409
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Well looks like you got all the answers. Are you writing the GOP leadership to endorse your brilliant plan?
No, I waste my time on this board.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:46 PM   #410
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No, I waste my time on this board.
Yes, I can see that.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:08 PM   #411
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Contributions to YOUR OWN HSA. You and your employer's contributions total 6% of salary and can be used for education, real estate, retirement, or health care.

Government puts a cap on the cost of care in the PUBLIC hospital/end of life system. Exactly like I stated.

The private family practice system is UNTOUCHED by government spending in any way, shape, or form. The private system is FREE MARKET.


There is a fee for ALL services in order to eliminate over-utilization of healthcare.



Like Singapore, the US is a 4-payer system. Unfortunately, the presence of government spending in the private market (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare) have skyrocketed healthcare costs.

Once the Democrats (like you) get your head out of your ass, and stop promoting unsustainable, complete government controlled, non-innovative, inhumane systems like single-payer...we can all go towards a very inexpensive, sustainable, best-of-all-worlds system.

It requires a complete separation from public and private spending.


Unfortunately, you guys are getting played like a cheap fiddle and swallow Socialism hook, line, and sinker.
Ok, I can see all those facts were too complicated for you, so here it is in one sentence.

Quote:
Singapore has a non-modified universal healthcare system where the government ensures affordability of healthcare within the public health system, largely through a system of compulsory savings, subsidies and price controls.
It is an excellent system and heavily regulated by government.

However, 80% of hospitals are government hospitals and all SDL drugs are heavily subsidized by the state. 80% of primary care is private, but again, the government mandates the cost of treatment. Individuals may choose any provider.....who's costs are subsidized or mandated. it is NOT a free market system.

One more for you.
Quote:
While the United States and Singapore differ in size and demographics, Hasseltine suggested that several elements of cost management in Singapore could also work in the United States. Singapore is currently in the process of transitioning from a fee-for-service (FFS) to a payment system based on DRGs; Haseltine noted that the United States is moving in the right direction toward a bundled payment system, as outlined in the Affordable Care Act (ACA).
http://wingofzock.org/2013/06/17/how...rom-singapore/
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:41 AM   #412
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I don't have a party.
Now that's not entirely true.


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Old 10-04-2013, 09:07 AM   #413
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This is what is largely left out of this whole "conversation" but should be the main thrust of it. I'd have some respect for the GOP if they were pushing for changes to ACA instead of trying to kill it.
I'd be for changing it if you took the government gun away from my head and eliminated the mandate. Better yet, YOU could change it how you want it changed and leave me out of it entirely. I don't want to participate in it at all.
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:13 AM   #414
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Now that's not entirely true.



I like how the left puts a government gun to my head to get me to participate in their forced insurance scheme, but I'm the terrorist.
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:15 AM   #415
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Trying to alter the PPACA by force is the wrong way. I welcome serious proposals for reform from repubs once the system is in place and we can see it's actual shortcomings.

Right now it's safe to say that any "reforms" the repubs are proposing under the threat of continued partial government shutdown are only thinly disguised efforts to defund and repeal -- their publicly stated goal.
I would say it's safe to say that too. I don't want to be any part of this scheme. It's economically inviable, and I don't want to be tied to it an any way. I would like an opt out clause. Are you willing to negotiate to allow people to opt out - or is this system your way or the highway? If so, I'll take the highway.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:33 AM   #416
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I like how the left puts a government gun to my head to get me to participate in their forced insurance scheme, but I'm the terrorist.
you didnt have insurance before obamacare? you don't think that you pay in higher premiums for all the uninsured in this country already?
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:47 AM   #417
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you didnt have insurance before obamacare? you don't think that you pay in higher premiums for all the uninsured in this country already?
Yeah but it's his choice to get bent over by his private insurance company. He doesn't want the government to do it.

Apparently one is better than the other.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:53 AM   #418
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I would say it's safe to say that too. I don't want to be any part of this scheme. It's economically inviable, and I don't want to be tied to it an any way. I would like an opt out clause. Are you willing to negotiate to allow people to opt out - or is this system your way or the highway? If so, I'll take the highway.
Yes we should have such a clause to opt out. As long as those opting out pledge to pay for all of their medical expenses on their own, and agree that the hospital can kick them out on the street to die when the money runs out. Or if they have no money they agree that the ER can turn them away when they are ill or injured to die in the streets. No problem.

You're against being forced to pay for health insurance. but are OK with others being forced to pay for the treatment of those who don't have insurance. Strange.

And "economically inviable?" Ask the Swiss. Seems to be plenty viable over there.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:00 AM   #419
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Yes we should have such a clause to opt out. As long as those opting out pledge to pay for all of their medical expenses on their own, and agree that the hospital can kick them out on the street to die when the money runs out. Or if they have no money they agree that the ER can turn them away when they are ill or injured to die in the streets. No problem.

You're against being forced to pay for health insurance. but are OK with others being forced to pay for the treatment of those who don't have insurance. Strange.

And "economically inviable?" Ask the Swiss. Seems to be plenty viable over there.
Can? No, I'd say must. Because you know these types of people will rely on the good nature of those in the healthcare industry to take care of them anyway, just as they rely on the good nature of police, fire and other public services to show up next day after they've tried to screw them out of their pensions.

I say do exactly as you said, but make the law state they must be kicked to the curb.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:56 AM   #420
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I'd be for changing it if you took the government gun away from my head and eliminated the mandate. Better yet, YOU could change it how you want it changed and leave me out of it entirely. I don't want to participate in it at all.
Join the Amish or an Indian tribe, or just don't pay the fine. The only way the IRS can take it from you is if they're already withholding taxes from your paycheck. In other cases, they can't come after you if you don't pay the fine.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:16 PM   #421
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Join the Amish or an Indian tribe, or just don't pay the fine. The only way the IRS can take it from you is if they're already withholding taxes from your paycheck. In other cases, they can't come after you if you don't pay the fine.
We're all going to be on these exchanges in three years, whether we want to be on them or not. Personally, I'd rather have a healthcare savings account that I can use to build an egg for a high deductable insurance plan. Unfortunately, Obamacare puts caps on deductibles so that the insurance companies can milk as much money from me as possible.

Without a doubt, I will be among the millions of losers in Obamacare. My company is going to hang in there, but within 3 years our HR department gal tells me that she sees us being dumped onto the exchanges based on the rising costs of plans, and the economic reality of it for the company.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:19 PM   #422
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Man! I would hate to live in Libertarian World. No hospitals. No museums. No libraries. No highways. No public parks. I guess no national parks either. No thanks.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:27 PM   #423
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We're all going to be on these exchanges in three years, whether we want to be on them or not. Personally, I'd rather have a healthcare savings account that I can use to build an egg for a high deductable insurance plan. Unfortunately, Obamacare puts caps on deductibles so that the insurance companies can milk as much money from me as possible.
Um... no they can't. The PPACA requires insurance companies to spend 80% of their revenues on patient care. That prevents any such "milking."
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:33 PM   #424
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Paul caught on hot mic: 'We're gonna win this, I think'


"To hear Paul tell it, this fight ultimately boils down to talking points. If Republicans stick to the phrases Paul likes, maybe they'll "win this." Whether those talking points are coherent or accurate apparently doesn't much matter."

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/20...n-this-i-think

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Old 10-04-2013, 12:39 PM   #425
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Man! I would hate to live in Libertarian World. No hospitals. No museums. No libraries. No highways. No public parks. I guess no national parks either. No thanks.
That's a bit extreme. "Less" does not mean the same as "none", and less federal does not mean less service. In many cases, it's an improvement to transfer the responsibility over to the states or private sector.
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