Boehner's Deal to Avoid a Shut Down

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by DenverBrit

The purpose of this cluster**** isn't to delay, it's to kill the bill. In a year, we'll be going through the same nonsense again. The Tea Party are scared to death that ACA will actually work and give Obama a landmark bill.

Obama, not running again, has Obamacare as his legacy, he's not going to let it go.

Anyway, to answer is it worth shutting the government down?? Of course not, but the House is doing this, not Obama. The GOP opposed Medicare and SS, this is more ideology at work, not government.

The Tea Party are on a suicide mission and I wish them the best of luck and hope they succeed in their 'mission.'

I also hope ACA succeeds, though it will need some serious tweaking.

A year?

Try like, 45ish days.

The "deal" was to get an extension until the next crisis, at which point they will smell blood in the water and expect more concessions, regardless of whether the LAW was legally passed in both houses, signed into LAW (there's that pesky word again), challenged and upheld in the Supreme Court and litigated in a national election which was won (again).

And as far as Obama not letting his legacy go? Even though he's said he won't use it, he could easily use Section 4 of the 14th Amendment to keep the government from going into default. He won't have to though, because the Democrats will always have enough votes in the Senate, and any bill that comes through from the House that Reid doesn't like, he can just table.

There's literally no footing the Republicans have to stand on.

So yeah.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by DenverBrit

The purpose of this cluster**** isn't to delay, it's to kill the bill. In a year, we'll be going through the same nonsense again. The Tea Party are scared to death that ACA will actually work and give Obama a landmark bill.

Obama, not running again, has Obamacare as his legacy, he's not going to let it go.

Anyway, to answer is it worth shutting the government down?? Of course not, but the House is doing this, not Obama. The GOP opposed Medicare and SS, this is more ideology at work, not government.

The Tea Party are on a suicide mission and I wish them the best of luck and hope they succeed in their 'mission.'

I also hope ACA succeeds, though it will need some serious tweaking.

What? Condition one simply gives families the same amount of big business time to comply. 1 year.

Now please address the second condition. Why don't the democrats want to be held accountable to the same insurance exchanges as their constituents?

[DenverBrit]

Originally Posted by houghtam

A year?

Try like, 45ish days.

The "deal" was to get an extension until the next crisis, at which point they will smell blood in the water and expect more concessions, regardless of whether the LAW was legally passed in both houses, signed into LAW (there's that pesky word again), challenged and upheld in the Supreme Court and litigated in a national election which was won (again).

And as far as Obama not letting his legacy go? Even though he's said he won't use it, he could easily use Section 4 of the 14th Amendment to keep the government from going into default. He won't have to though, because the Democrats will always have enough votes in the Senate, and any bill that comes through from the House that Reid doesn't like, he can just table.

There's literally no footing the Republicans have to stand on.

So yeah.

You are correct, I changed the time line in my post.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by DenverBrit

The market was inflated to a fat bubble, but otherwise, it was a boom time for business and a budget surplus. Clinton could negotiate and compromise with Newt......that's what's changed. We now have self serving, ideologues who think nothing of shutting government down to get their way. They care about their reelection, then party, then country.

The GOP leadership need to get control of their party again and restore some sanity into the opposition.

You're telling me that Clinton and Newt weren't self serving ideologues?

I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Every politician is doing what they think it right for the country. This issue isn't about the politicians. It's about the voters. This got voted in the last time around when the people said "we had 4 years of this - let's elect 4 more years of this while we figure out what to do next."

That next comes in 2014. In the meantime, these guys are all going to stand by their ground and rightfully say that they're serving the people who elected them. Meanwhile, Obamacare is rolling out. Right now the question that is going to start being asked more and more is "is it ready for primetime," and "is it worth keeping the government shut down over a year delay of it."

I personally think that the Republicans will easily be able to defend the ground they've staked out given that context. Maybe not. Again, it really is going to depend on the people.

[Meck77]

Taco I think as more and more people really start to understand why it shut down the democrats will have to concede.

Why should congress be held to a different standard then the American people with these forced insurance exchanges?

Why would Obama give Corporations 1 year to sign people up yet not allow middle class families the same amount of time?

[DenverBrit]

Originally Posted by Meck77

What? Condition one simply gives families the same amount of big business time to comply. 1 year.

It's a transparent attempt to kill the bill. They offered to fund government for only 11 weeks in exchange, knowing full well it wouldn't fly.

Now please address the second condition. Why don't the democrats want to be held accountable to the same insurance exchanges as their constituents?

As to your second point, you'll have to ask Democrats, but as it is thrown in with an unacceptable condition, they knew it wouldn't pass.

I personally have no idea why these asshats were allowed an exclusion in the first place. They shouldn't have.

[DenverBrit]

Originally Posted by Taco John

You're telling me that Clinton and Newt weren't self serving ideologues?

I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Every politician is doing what they think it right for the country. This issue isn't about the politicians. It's about the voters. This got voted in the last time around when the people said "we had 4 years of this - let's elect 4 more years of this while we figure out what to do next."

That next comes in 2014. In the meantime, these guys are all going to stand by their ground and rightfully say that they're serving the people who elected them. Meanwhile, Obamacare is rolling out. Right now the question that is going to start being asked more and more is "is it ready for primetime," and "is it worth keeping the government shut down over a year delay of it."

I personally think that the Republicans will easily be able to defend the ground they've staked out given that context. Maybe not. Again, it really is going to depend on the people.

They were able to negotiate and compromise, even though they didn't like each other. That's how it's supposed to work, not the way it's playing out now.

Your 2nd comment, well I don't know how to respond to that, other than.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by DenverBrit

As to your second point, you'll have to ask Democrats, but as it is thrown in with an unacceptable condition, they knew it wouldn't pass.

I personally have no idea why these asshats were allowed an exclusion in the first place. They shouldn't have.

I have no idea either but like I keep repeating and repeating!

CONGRESS HAD A CLAUSE IN OBAMACARE THAT EXEMPTED THEM FROM THE SAME SYSTEM AS YOU OR I!!!!!

Surely most Americans would want congress held to the same standard. So they can debate point 1 and get the government open again.

I'm starting to see why this "small minority" is fighting so hard now. As more facts are coming out Congress might actually have to agree to obamacare standards for themselves! Imagine that!

[DenverBrit]

Originally Posted by Meck77

I have no idea either but like I keep repeating and repeating!

CONGRESS HAD A CLAUSE IN OBAMACARE THAT EXEMPTED THEM FROM THE SAME SYSTEM AS YOU OR I!!!!!

Surely most Americans would want congress held to the same standard. So they can debate point 1 and get the government open again.

I'm starting to see why this "small minority" is fighting so hard now. As more facts are coming out Congress might actually have to agree to obamacare standards for themselves! Imagine that!

If they were serious, that would have been the only condition, and I believe it would have been acceptable. The rest is bull****. They need to see how the ACA plays out, but as I have mentioned, they are scared it will actually work.

[DenverBrit]

Too harsh?

[Miss I.]

Originally Posted by Meck77

I have no idea either but like I keep repeating and repeating!

CONGRESS HAD A CLAUSE IN OBAMACARE THAT EXEMPTED THEM FROM THE SAME SYSTEM AS YOU OR I!!!!!

Surely most Americans would want congress held to the same standard. So they can debate point 1 and get the government open again.

I'm starting to see why this "small minority" is fighting so hard now. As more facts are coming out Congress might actually have to agree to obamacare standards for themselves! Imagine that!

They've always been exempt. It's not new. I am a federal employee and I guarantee you the insurance plans, benefits etc that I get as a civil servant are completely different than what they have. The Obamacare thing is not new, it just highlight the disparity that's always existed and will always exist until they are brought to task. Until they have term limits and oh say not 2 year terms so they are always running, it really doesn't matter what people do voting wise. I don't like the shut down, but if we as a people actually capitalize and force those douchebags to make a real change, beginning with legislating actual limits on their power maybe my time without a paycheck will be worth it. But to be honest I am selfish enough to want it to end soon, because I already have a house in Colorado I've been losing money on for 4 years and will continue to do so this year. If this continues long enough I may not be able to pay my house and apartment and will have short sale my house or worse. TrulyI hope it will end in a week, but who knows. These guys are idiots. Anyway, I am done with the whole thing. When I've finished my required time in VA, I am quitting my job and living off taxpayer's money doing nothing. In other words I plan to run for Congress.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Meck77

I have no idea either but like I keep repeating and repeating!

CONGRESS HAD A CLAUSE IN OBAMACARE THAT EXEMPTED THEM FROM THE SAME SYSTEM AS YOU OR I!!!!!

Surely most Americans would want congress held to the same standard. So they can debate point 1 and get the government open again.

I'm starting to see why this "small minority" is fighting so hard now. As more facts are coming out Congress might actually have to agree to obamacare standards for themselves! Imagine that!

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...all-congress-/

[DenverBrit]

Originally Posted by houghtam

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...all-congress-/

Well like many, I accepted the exception claim made by Cruz as factual.

It appears it's another of the 'death panel' myths.

Nice find.

[elsid13]

Originally Posted by Miss I.

They've always been exempt. It's not new. I am a federal employee and I guarantee you the insurance plans, benefits etc that I get as a civil servant are completely different than what they have. The Obamacare thing is not new, it just highlight the disparity that's always existed and will always exist until they are brought to task. Until they have term limits and oh say not 2 year terms so they are always running, it really doesn't matter what people do voting wise. I don't like the shut down, but if we as a people actually capitalize and force those douchebags to make a real change, beginning with legislating actual limits on their power maybe my time without a paycheck will be worth it. But to be honest I am selfish enough to want it to end soon, because I already have a house in Colorado I've been losing money on for 4 years and will continue to do so this year. If this continues long enough I may not be able to pay my house and apartment and will have short sale my house or worse. TrulyI hope it will end in a week, but who knows. These guys are idiots. Anyway, I am done with the whole thing. When I've finished my required time in VA, I am quitting my job and living off taxpayer's money doing nothing. In other words I plan to run for Congress.

That whole dating with Oleg is going to work for you, when you run for Congress.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by Miss I.

They've always been exempt. It's not new. I am a federal employee and I guarantee you the insurance plans, benefits etc that I get as a civil servant are completely different than what they have. The Obamacare thing is not new, it just highlight the disparity that's always existed and will always exist until they are brought to task. Until they have term limits and oh say not 2 year terms so they are always running, it really doesn't matter what people do voting wise. I don't like the shut down, but if we as a people actually capitalize and force those douchebags to make a real change, beginning with legislating actual limits on their power maybe my time without a paycheck will be worth it. :

To impose a mandate on the people and exempt themselves is crap.

Sorry to hear about your property situation. Would be happy to offer any advice I could to help out.

From all the interviews I heard to day on both sides of the isle it sure seems like Reid has dug his heals in and said a big FU to the other side. Like them or not those Rs represent tens of millions of people also. To not even be willing to sit at a table with them won't play out very well.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Meck77

To impose a mandate on the people and exempt themselves is crap.

Sorry to hear about your property situation. Would be happy to offer any advice I could to help out.

From all the interviews I heard to day on both sides of the isle it sure seems like Reid has dug his heals in and said a big FU to the other side. Like them or not those Rs represent tens of millions of people also. To not even be willing to sit at a table with them won't play out very well.

Claiming they exempted themselves is also crap.

[rolandftw]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I'm actually stunned. I thought this was a great compromise. I can't believe Reid and Obama aren't willing to budge an inch and instead choose to preside over a shut down over such a small concession. I guess I have to credit them for having principles too.

For it to be a compromise, there must be something given up by both sides. All the Republican Party is giving up is only taking out the parts they REALLY don't like about the Affordable Healthcare Act. And that is only, for now. They're not conceding anything on any other issue that the Democrats have.

There are no reassurances that a couple weeks from now, when the budget has to be passed, that there won't be other aspects of the Bill that they want taken out in order to get a Budget passed.

I'm sorry, but the Republican Party will have to do better if they expect anyone to take them seriously that this was a real compromise.

[Rohirrim]

Once again, only one guy in the media has it right:

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by rolandftw

For it to be a compromise, there must be something given up by both sides. All the Republican Party is giving up is only taking out the parts they REALLY don't like about the Affordable Healthcare Act. And that is only, for now. They're not conceding anything on any other issue that the Democrats have.

There are no reassurances that a couple weeks from now, when the budget has to be passed, that there won't be other aspects of the Bill that they want taken out in order to get a Budget passed.

I'm sorry, but the Republican Party will have to do better if they expect anyone to take them seriously that this was a real compromise.

It's not a bill. It's a law. If they want to change it, they have to amend the law or go back and rewrite it. The president can't just change laws by fiat. No matter how many times the Rethuglican asswipes and their toadies at Fox call it a bill, it's not a bill. It's a law. Whole different animal.

[ant1999e]

How many times has obama changed"the law" so far?

[rolandftw]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

It's not a bill. It's a law. If they want to change it, they have to amend the law or go back and rewrite it. The president can't just change laws by fiat. No matter how many times the Rethuglican asswipes and their toadies at Fox call it a bill, it's not a bill. It's a law. Whole different animal.

You're right, it's a law. But my point still stands, and that is that the Republicans aren't really giving up anything. It's not a compromise at all, because they aren't giving up anything.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by ant1999e

How many times has obama changed"the law" so far?

As far as I can tell, he hasn't changed any of it.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

As far as I can tell, he hasn't changed any of it.

Try 19 times.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-aca-19-times/

[DenverBrit]

Originally Posted by Meck77

Try 19 times.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-aca-19-times/

Kind of.

Our ruling

Graves said Obama "himself has amended, delayed, or repealed 19 components of his very own law." Based on the analysis by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, Graves has the right number. However, he simplifies the way that many of those 19 changes came about, and by doing that, makes it seem as though the president were more directly involved.

Graves cited these changes as evidence that the law is fatally flawed but he glossed over the differences among them. Some of the changes were significant and some were technical or tangential to the health care law itself.

The basic number is right but there are lot of details of details missing from Graves' assertion.

We rate the claim Half True.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by DenverBrit

Kind of.

Our ruling

Graves said Obama "himself has amended, delayed, or repealed 19 components of his very own law." Based on the analysis by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, Graves has the right number. However, he simplifies the way that many of those 19 changes came about, and by doing that, makes it seem as though the president were more directly involved.

Graves cited these changes as evidence that the law is fatally flawed but he glossed over the differences among them. Some of the changes were significant and some were technical or tangential to the health care law itself.

The basic number is right but there are lot of details of details missing from Graves' assertion.

We rate the claim Half True.

Ok call it 9.5 times the law was changed then. geez....