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Old 09-29-2013, 12:16 PM   #326
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Oh I agree but my point earlier was is our health tied to the government or perhaps to our own actions? The government is getting involved to regulate insurance but why not a multi prong approach?

We are printing $85 billion a month. Hell why not just cut a deal with all the YMCA's in the country and make it free to the public? Or at least make it almost free. Why not really make a dent in school nutrition? Offer programs or incentives for back yard gardens? Most people have no clue on how to garden. I know because I've been researching it. The government will hand you a block of cheese or food stamps but why not give people the ability to raise a little bit of organic fresh food? Even poor people are within walking distances of urban gardens popping up everywhere.

Let's face it obesity is a huge problem in the country. Health insurance will certainly help but does it really nip the real problem. People just don't eat healthy foods and or work out enough.

The current admin has nearly doubled the national debt and what has been the result? A sluggish economy and their plan to help people become healthy is cheaper drugs?
Well, the YMCA is a Christian organization, for one. But I see your point. And it's a valid one. But do you honestly think the reaction from the right would be any different for incentivizing growing food or healthier school lunches than it has been for any of the other "green" ideas they've been promoting?

Hell, look at Michelle Obama's school lunch programs. Nothing but complaints. "My son is an athlete and he's just not getting enough food." Nevermind that the school lunch programmed isn't designed for your son's 3500 calorie diet. "Look at that Michelle Obama, she has such a big ass, what does she know about health?"

Face it. It wouldn't matter if Obama came out with a plan to stop global warming, feed the poor and cure cancer, people would b**** about it because it came from him. They've been chanting obstruction since before he took the oath of office. They've been promoting the idea that he's a Muslim, not a citizen, a celebrity and not a President...all this before he even stepped into office. So no, it's not the policies that he's enacted that have caused people to do this...they're just looking for a reason to hate.

So while I think your ideas about promoting health would do better to make our country healthier in the long run than just throwing money at the problem, it's pie-in-the-sky thinking. Obama can't bend down to tie his shoes without being criticized for doing it the "wrong way".
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Old 09-29-2013, 12:26 PM   #327
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Well, the YMCA is a Christian organization, for one. But I see your point. And it's a valid one. But do you honestly think the reaction from the right would be any different for incentivizing growing food or healthier school lunches than it has been for any of the other "green" ideas they've been promoting?

Hell, look at Michelle Obama's school lunch programs. Nothing but complaints. "My son is an athlete and he's just not getting enough food." Nevermind that the school lunch programmed isn't designed for your son's 3500 calorie diet. "Look at that Michelle Obama, she has such a big ass, what does she know about health?"

Face it. It wouldn't matter if Obama came out with a plan to stop global warming, feed the poor and cure cancer, people would b**** about it because it came from him. They've been chanting obstruction since before he took the oath of office. They've been promoting the idea that he's a Muslim, not a citizen, a celebrity and not a President...all this before he even stepped into office. So no, it's not the policies that he's enacted that have caused people to do this...they're just looking for a reason to hate.

So while I think your ideas about promoting health would do better to make our country healthier in the long run than just throwing money at the problem, it's pie-in-the-sky thinking. Obama can't bend down to tie his shoes without being criticized for doing it the "wrong way".
Well the YMCA was just an example. They could offer subsidies to thousands of private companies to offer low cost access to poor.

Well if you are correct then our government is set up to keep people on the government tit by design. We like to blame the left or the right but the reality is regardless of which group controls the Executive branch, house, or senate the system IS designed to keep Americans reliant on the government which benefits the politicians, justifies their existence, salaries, life long pensions and bloated budgets.


This is why I'm of the free market mindset and just don't believe the government really wants to or can fix our health problems. In fact I believe they will just make it more expensive and probably worse for more people.

The good thing is there are plenty of entrepreneurs banding together across the United States to tackle the issues the government just won't/can't fix. There is a HUGE movement happening even though you don't know it. There are poor people, young people, experienced Silicon Valley people meeting in the same rooms across the country constantly. We are going to see an explosion in amazing start ups in the next 1-5 years. Mark my words.

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:31 PM   #328
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more subsidies? that hasn't worked the last 30 yrs will not today or in the future. giving out more tax breaks isn't the answer.
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Old 09-29-2013, 12:35 PM   #329
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This is just ONE example that I'm talking houtham. http://theleanstartup.com/

The Kauffman foundation has an entire different program. Start Up weekend. Google it.

Thousands of meetings across the globe are happening right now to help launch the next great start up biz. This is the type of activity that is going to fix our nations problems. The problem is the government is actually getting in the way with more regulations, taxes, fees, imposing health care plans on small business to hinder expansion etc etc.

These guys are making HUGE waves in the start up community.
http://www.kauffman.org/

No offense Hougtam but you admitted you are of the retirement mindset. That's ok. Hey power to you. I could be "retired" but honestly it would bore the hell of me. At 38 I still have plenty of gas in the tank to fix some problems out there. When you love what you do it isn't work IMO.

This isn't about how you or I spend our time. However my point is related in that as much as you thing I'm disconnected from REALITY your retirement status you probably aren't in tune with all the amazing Start up meetings/investment incubators/opportunities that are out there that people like myself ARE tuned into and supporting.

We are either part of the SOLUTION or PART of the problem. Sure discussing ideas in here has some synergy and could result in some great ideas but at the end of the day all the ideas in here don't mean jack **** and are a complete WASTE of time if nobody actually runs it, steps out into the real world to help implement it, or at a minimum march into their state capital to let that idea be heard in a public forum. Right now ANY of us could march into our State Capitals to rant just like we do in here. How many of you have actually done it? Would do it? Want to do it?

I really believe the solutions to many of the problems we are discussing in this forum will be solved via the entrepreneurs meeting in the rooms I'm talking about now. Ideas are being attacked with 50 great minds at once in the spirit of efficiency, innovation, AND REALLY HELPING PEOPLE. Meanwhile our government is doing the very opposite. They are looking out for their own political interests/pocket books and some of you want to trust them with revolutionizing health care in our country?

That's ****ing insane.

Lastly the bickering and shut down talk IMO is to instill fear in the American people to strengthen our reliance on them.

Shut the damn thing down. Let's start with paychecks and pensions of ALL those who work or have worked at the capital. Oh wait. They exempted their pay from every being stopped and in fact given themselves raises. *spit*

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Old 09-29-2013, 01:46 PM   #330
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The Obama Adm. really screwed the pooch on Asthma. One of the mostly costly lingering diseases. And what do they go and do but let the FDA pull one of the most effective, cheapest, longest tested over the counter drugs we've ever made in this country.... Primetine Mist. They used the Montreal Accord to screw Asthma patients.

The Repubs aren't the only ones screwing us on health care. The Dem's can be just as heartless.

I will start a thread later. I have a bunch of info on it. I think people will be shocked at what really went down and how much it's now costing us all.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:10 PM   #331
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This is just ONE example that I'm talking houtham. http://theleanstartup.com/

The Kauffman foundation has an entire different program. Start Up weekend. Google it.

Thousands of meetings across the globe are happening right now to help launch the next great start up biz. This is the type of activity that is going to fix our nations problems. The problem is the government is actually getting in the way with more regulations, taxes, fees, imposing health care plans on small business to hinder expansion etc etc.

These guys are making HUGE waves in the start up community.
http://www.kauffman.org/

No offense Hougtam but you admitted you are of the retirement mindset. That's ok. Hey power to you. I could be "retired" but honestly it would bore the hell of me. At 38 I still have plenty of gas in the tank to fix some problems out there. When you love what you do it isn't work IMO.

This isn't about how you or I spend our time. However my point is related in that as much as you thing I'm disconnected from REALITY your retirement status you probably aren't in tune with all the amazing Start up meetings/investment incubators/opportunities that are out there that people like myself ARE tuned into and supporting.

We are either part of the SOLUTION or PART of the problem. Sure discussing ideas in here has some synergy and could result in some great ideas but at the end of the day all the ideas in here don't mean jack **** and are a complete WASTE of time if nobody actually runs it, steps out into the real world to help implement it, or at a minimum march into their state capital to let that idea be heard in a public forum. Right now ANY of us could march into our State Capitals to rant just like we do in here. How many of you have actually done it? Would do it? Want to do it?

I really believe the solutions to many of the problems we are discussing in this forum will be solved via the entrepreneurs meeting in the rooms I'm talking about now. Ideas are being attacked with 50 great minds at once in the spirit of efficiency, innovation, AND REALLY HELPING PEOPLE. Meanwhile our government is doing the very opposite. They are looking out for their own political interests/pocket books and some of you want to trust them with revolutionizing health care in our country?

That's ****ing insane.

Lastly the bickering and shut down talk IMO is to instill fear in the American people to strengthen our reliance on them.

Shut the damn thing down. Let's start with paychecks and pensions of ALL those who work or have worked at the capital. Oh wait. They exempted their pay from every being stopped and in fact given themselves raises. *spit*
As far as me personally, you're not going to get to me. No one is. I earned my reprieve. I no longer have to listen to idiot customers who have no idea how the movie theater business works complain about how much they are paying for popcorn. Instead, I get to play trains with my two kids. I no longer roll in from work at 2am on the weekend after an exhausting 12+ hour day. Now, my kids are in bed between 9 and 10 (depending on when mom gets home), and the rest of my evening is ours. I no longer eat **** because it's the most convenient and the company wants me to spend time out on the floor so I have to shovel it in. Instead, I'm cooking healthy breakfasts, lunches and dinners for my family and we *gasp* eat at a dinner table.

I may enter the workforce again, but it will be on my terms. I may work long days or weeks again, but it will be doing something I love. I've gotten several job offers recently in a related industry from people I've worked for before...I may take one, I may not...it needs to make sense for us. But as far as not understanding you or me being out of touch...I've lived all over this country. I've lived or spent an extended amount of time in 4 states down south, 3 states in the midwest, and 1 state up east. I've come from humble beginnings, and I've known need both as a student and as an independent person. Real need, as in, not knowing where my next meal is coming from. This is why I laugh when you mention startups in the context of people who are truly poor. Setting aside that they generally don't have the education to know where to look for a startup or the know how to actually dream something up worthwhile to market, most of them couldn't care less about these investment opportunities, because they can't make ends meet as it is! It really is the equivalent of Romney telling someone to borrow $20k from their parents to go to college...you're assuming things that, in my experience, just aren't true.

Now as far as "the government", as you refer to it...They may not necessarily always have everyone's best interests in mind, but I can say that, in my experience, liberal ideals (not Democratic ideals) are much more relevant to me than conservative ones.

True liberals do not believe in handouts, but they believe everyone needs a hand up from time to time. This "everyone look out for themselves" stuff is pure garbage, because in the end, in my experience, the people who shout that the loudest are the people who are most likely to hoard their money. They're the most likely to tell a homeless person, "get a job, you bum!" They're the most likely to cry about the lack of morals in the world and trumpet their going to church every Sunday, all while whispering about the sinners in the back row, coming to church hungover from the night before, or cheating on their spouse during the week. Again, this is my experience we're talking about. And we're all shaped by our experiences.

Ultimately, however, I've voted for a Democrat the last two elections for one main reason above all of these others, and I've said this several times. The one right we have remaining is the right that we should refuse to have taken away, and that is the right to democratically elect our leaders. The right to vote. Our leaders from BOTH parties should be trying to GROW the electorate, not shrink it. What I have seen over the past 10 years is an attempt by the right to trump up election fraud, pass 11th hour laws, use fear tactics and remove people from voter rolls...all with an underlying tinge of racism. The facts don't lie. For every anecdote someone can give about people being bussed from out of state to vote, I can point to study after study that points out that, in any statistically meaningful way, voter fraud of that sort just. doesn't. happen. Especially not with enough regularity to warrant disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of people.

So you can diss the government all you want...although from your posts I have a sneaking suspicion that you are one of those who b****es now that a conservative is not in the WH. I still have hope that, by using our right to remove those in power, we the people can affect change in government to help the most people, and I will continue to vote in that way. We weren't founded to be every man for himself, and when the wealth gap is what it is, it is my belief that it is our responsibility as people (not just citizens, but as human beings) to see that something isn't working right, and that the government (of the people, for the people, by the people) needs to step in. It's not about jealousy any more than it was during the depression or any number of other eras in US and human history.

Finally...am I happy with our government the way it is? I'm not going to re-hash all that. Short answer is no. Long answer is go back and read my posts.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:01 AM   #332
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Five reasons Americans already love ObamaCare — plus one reason why they’re gonna love it even more, soon
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...-theyre-gonna/

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Old 10-01-2013, 10:11 AM   #333
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Five reasons Americans already love ObamaCare — plus one reason why they’re gonna love it even more, soon
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...-theyre-gonna/
That article should be called:

"Six things liberals have been telling you for years but you'll believe now because it's finally on Fox News"
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:10 PM   #334
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Check the Colorado Health Exchange and the same health insurance I have to today will cost me twice as much a month in premium (out of pocket, my company subsidizes a piece of this) and twice the amount in deductable. Wow.

Now for 300 bucks a month I don't even get insurancecoverage until I spend the 6000.00 deductable per year.

Great idea thus far everyone. Good job. I am really feeling the savings right now.

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Old 10-01-2013, 12:46 PM   #335
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Check the Colorado Health Exchange and the same health insurance I have to today will cost me twice as much a month in premium (out of pocket, my company subsidizes a piece of this) and twice the amount in deductable. Wow.

Now for 300 bucks a month I don't even get insurancecoverage until I spend the 6000.00 deductable per year.

Great idea thus far everyone. Good job. I am really feeling the savings right now.
6k must mean you have the one of the cheapest plans....and it's still double what you've been paying?? The rates I'm seeing are lower than anything I paid out as an individual or employer.

Here's some of the rate examples for Colorado released by DORA.

http://cohealthinitiative.org/sites/...3081211081.pdf
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:47 PM   #336
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Five reasons Americans already love ObamaCare — plus one reason why they’re gonna love it even more, soon
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...-theyre-gonna/
This reinforces the belief that the Tea Party idiots are afraid ACA will work and be popular, instead of the disaster they are predicting.
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:18 PM   #337
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All I can say is F those republicans in the house. They sit on their fat asses and do nothing and get paid big bucks for it. And they've tried to repeal this like over 100 times or something. It's not gonna happen. So they shut down the government instead?

To all the republicans in the house - Fuc U
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:20 PM   #338
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All I can say is F those republicans in the house. They sit on their fat asses and do nothing and get paid big bucks for it. And they've tried to repeal this like over 100 times or something. It's not gonna happen. So they shut down the government instead?

To all the republicans in the house - Fuc U
Woah hold on. The facts are out now.

There were just two conditions before the shut down.

1) Families have 1 year to sign up just like the big businesses
2) The congress themselves have to use the same insurance exchanges as we the people.

Why is that so extreme?

Are families less important than big business? Are the politicians better than you Zona?
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:27 PM   #339
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Woah hold on. The facts are out now.

There were just two conditions before the shut down.

1) Families have 1 year to sign up just like the big businesses
2) The congress themselves have to use the same insurance exchanges as we the people.

Why is that so extreme?

Are families less important than big business? Are the politicians better than you Zona?
Kinda funny how during this shutdown they will still get their paychecks even while they are not working. Unlike so many hard working federal employees who now are being sent home without pay. And while many services are down, we still get to pay every last red cent on our taxes, even while our government is only providing some of the services. I want a discount on my taxes if my government is not giving me full services. And for godsake, should these members of congress get paid while they don't work? Screw that. You vote to shut it all down and send millions of workers home without pay, you get to go home without pay also.
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:32 PM   #340
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Actually Zona you really need to get a better understanding of what is going on.

I understand your anger but actually many Democrats and Republicans alike are agreeing to not get paid during the shut down.

Ahem so please answer my question why families cannot get the same break Obama is giving big business (giving them 1 year) to sign up and why Congress themselves cannot be help to the same system as they are forcing on us.

Two very reasonable requests. No?
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:41 PM   #341
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This reinforces the belief that the Tea Party idiots are afraid ACA will work and be popular, instead of the disaster they are predicting.
BINGO!

First day of ACA and the computer system is strained to the limit. 1.5 million hits just from California in the first few hours. Talked with a gentleman who campaigned heavily for the idiot, Mike Lee. He said he was disappointed in Lee and it's the one right thing Obama has done.

It's not a luxury, it's a necessity. The public is watching and once again it's the right who obviously STILL can't figure out the last major election. But because they are afraid of the success of a program brought to fruitation by the rival party, they mess with people's jobs. Important agencies like the CDC are shutdown, the military is affected. ACA is a law and these people throw a temper tantrm. Un****ingbelievable.
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:41 PM   #342
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cause the the business delay is not central/crucial to obamacare, the individual mandate is.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:19 PM   #343
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Unlike so many hard working federal employees who now are being sent home without pay.
Yup. And some are being asked to work without pay. I know someone who works for the U.S. Attorney's office here in my state and that's the situation she's in. Working without knowing when she'll get her next paycheck.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:27 PM   #344
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Tony take a stab at the two points the Republicans asked the Dems to concede on.

Harry Reid was sweating bullets on the floor today as these two points are being drilled home on CSPAN and beyond. He's in trouble IMO.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:49 PM   #345
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Tony take a stab at the two points the Republicans asked the Dems to concede on.

Harry Reid was sweating bullets on the floor today as these two points are being drilled home on CSPAN and beyond. He's in trouble IMO.


How much do you pay for your stuff?

Reid is in probably the safest position there is. Besides Obama and the ACA, of course.
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:51 PM   #346
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Check the Colorado Health Exchange and the same health insurance I have to today will cost me twice as much a month in premium (out of pocket, my company subsidizes a piece of this) and twice the amount in deductable. Wow.

Now for 300 bucks a month I don't even get insurancecoverage until I spend the 6000.00 deductable per year.

Great idea thus far everyone. Good job. I am really feeling the savings right now.
Deductibles are high because under ACA most preventative and routine care (everything from checkups to a colonoscopy, etc.) is not subject to deductibles. Thus, the only reason you would need to spend $6,000 to "get coverage" is if you actually got sick or injured.

And, if you don't like the plans in the exchange, just keep your existing plan from your employer.
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:46 PM   #347
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This thread played out on video.

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Old 10-02-2013, 08:14 AM   #348
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Actually Zona you really need to get a better understanding of what is going on.

I understand your anger but actually many Democrats and Republicans alike are agreeing to not get paid during the shut down.

Ahem so please answer my question why families cannot get the same break Obama is giving big business (giving them 1 year) to sign up and why Congress themselves cannot be help to the same system as they are forcing on us.

Two very reasonable requests. No?
I believe people have until March 31 to enroll, no? 6 months is plenty of time.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:52 PM   #349
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Why the Health Care Law Scares the G.O.P.

Today, the same forces that blocked the expansion of Medicaid in Missouri are going all out in Washington in a bid to undo all of the Affordable Care Act. Bowing to the vehemence of its Tea Party faction, the House G.O.P. forced a government shutdown when Senate Democrats refused to delay or defund the president’s health overhaul.

House Republicans are threatening even further damage if they don’t get their way, possibly unleashing financial chaos if they manage to force the United States into its first default ever on the government’s debt.

Republicans’ efforts raise the same perplexing question posed by The Missourian: What drives Tea Party Republicans and their financial backers? What calculation persuades them that repealing the health care law is worth the risk? Indeed, whose interests do they represent?

Nearly 6 in 10 Americans disapprove of trying to stop the law by cutting its financing. Even among those who don’t like the law, less than half want their representatives in Congress to try to make it fail.

It is tempting to discard the Tea Party activists driving the Republican Party as crazy — as some commentators have — motivated by fear and willing to believe that default won’t cause much harm and might even act as a purgative to free the economy of a bloated government.

“They listen to nobody but themselves,” the Harvard political scientist Theda Skocpol told me. “They are convinced of their rectitude and convinced that they alone are qualified to save America from the dire threat of Obama and his polices. They have worked themselves into a dangerous place.”

Their relationship with reality can take peculiar turns. Reflexive opponents of “government,” they can exhibit little sense of what the government actually does.

And yet the argument that half the Republican Party has simply lost its mind has to be an unsatisfactory answer, especially considering the sophistication of some of the deep-pocketed backers of the Tea Party insurgency.

There is a plausible alternative to irrationality. Flawed though it may turn out to be, Obamacare, as the Affordable Care Act is popularly known, could fundamentally change the relationship between working Americans and their government. This could pose an existential threat to the small-government credo that has defined the G.O.P. for four decades.
The law is imperfect. It has dozens of complicated, interlocking parts. Half of Americans say they don’t understand how it will affect them and their family. Still, the law has many provisions that are likely to improve life for millions of Americans, including a big portion of what we know as the working middle class.

Almost two-thirds of uninsured Americans have a full-time job, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. A further 16 percent are employed part time.
The Department of Health and Human Services recently estimated that nearly six in 10 uninsured Americans could qualify for health coverage in the insurance market for less than $100 per person per month.

According to an analysis by the Urban Institute, 28 million Americans would gain health insurance under Obamacare. Of these, eight million earn more than twice the poverty level of $47,100 for a family of four. A majority of those would get a subsidy to buy a plan.

As it turns out, the core Tea Party demographic — working white men between the ages of 45 and 64 — would do fairly well under the law.

Take Missouri. It has about 800,000 uninsured. Almost half of them would have been eligible for expanded Medicaid benefits, had the Legislature not rejected them. Many of the rest — including families of four making up to $94,000 — will be eligible to get subsidized health insurance.

In St. Louis, for instance, a family of four making $50,000 a year will be able to buy a middle-of-the-road “silver” health plan for $282 a month and a bottom-end “bronze” plan for $32. Even Medicare recipients will get a benefit worth a few hundred dollars a year.

This could justify conservative Republicans’ greatest fears.

In 1994, when President Bill Clinton took an earlier stab at a health care overhaul, the conservative thinker William Kristol published a manifesto about why Republicans had to stop it.

“Passage of the Clinton health plan in any form would be disastrous,” Mr. Kristol wrote, italicizing for emphasis. “It would guarantee an unprecedented federal intrusion into the American economy. Its success would signal the rebirth of centralized welfare-state policy at the moment that such policy is being perceived as a failure in other areas.”

Two decades after Mr. Clinton’s ultimately failed attempt, Obamacare poses the same sort of threat.

Even Americans who say they dislike the law actually like many of its components. Nearly three-quarters approve of giving financial help to poor and moderate-income Americans to buy health insurance. Two-thirds approve of barring insurance companies from denying coverage because of somebody’s medical history. Three-quarters favor letting children stay on their parents’ insurance until they are 26.
Until now, social welfare programs in the United States have exhibited a “big hole,” Professor Skocpol said, consisting of nonpoor working-age Americans and their children. Obamacare closes a big chunk of it.

“The main beneficiaries tend to have lower wages, employed in smaller businesses that are not providing health insurance,” she said. “They are not elderly. They are also not the poorest.”

And they might be grateful to Democrats for the benefit.

To conservative Republicans, losing a large slice of the middle class to the ranks of the Democratic Party could justify extreme measures.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/bu...-gop.html?_r=0
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:03 PM   #350
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