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Old 09-25-2013, 10:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Blart View Post
Yeah, boy that inflation is out of control You austrians never give up.


Aside from all the economic anti-math voodoo, I'm glad that everyone in this thread acknowledges there's a wealth gap and it's increasing. That's the important point.
How is the wealth gap 'the important point'

Does it matter to you how much more stuff people you don't know have.? Is life not fair?

The real problem is lack of industry and middle class opportunity. And that doesn't come via federal regulation. Although it can be ended by it.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:05 AM   #27
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It goes without saying that the bailouts help the wealthy, but a lot of people still don't realize that QE is helping the wealthy more than it helps the poor. This increases the wealth gap. It would be better to have the $85 billion per month go directly to the people. At least our children's future debt could be used to benefit everybody today and not just the wealthy.


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Monetary easing has benefited asset prices. And the top 1 percent owns an outsized share of assets especially stocks.

So in re-inflating stocks, the Fed has contributed to the uneven recovery. The wealth of the wealthy is largely back to precrisis levels, while the rest of America is still climbing back. The Bank of England released a report this summer stating that 40 percent of the stock-market gains from the BOE's quantitative easing program had gone to the wealthiest 5 percent of households.

Economist Anthony Randazzo of the Reason Foundation wrote that QE "is fundamentally a regressive redistribution program that has been boosting wealth for those already engaged in the financial sector or those who already own homes, but passing little along to the rest of the economy. It is a primary driver of income inequality."
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articl...lth-Inequality
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:49 PM   #28
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Do you even realize that this is largely attributable to the policies adopted by the administration you campaigned and voted for?
I know the gifs I posted can be confusing, but Obama wasn't our president in the late 70's, when our country began cutting benefits to the lower classes, which has been ongoing.

Welfare benefits in the USA, per recipient, adjusted for inflation

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators08/apa.shtml#ftanf2



Secondly, you don't know who I voted for, and you have no clue who I campaigned for, because just like your football & political opinions, you rush to judgements without adequate evidence.

For the record, since I live in a non-swing state, I voted for Jill Stein. I campaigned for Elizabeth Warren (she's now doing a ****ing awesome job taking on the banks) and Alan Grayson (who did a wonderful job stopping a war on Syria) and they both won. If I lived in a swing state, I'd have held my nose and voted for Obama. Capitalism, imperialism, and environmental destruction with an embarrassed smile was much preferable to the bold-faced, unabashed capitalism & imperialism of Romney/Ryan.

Last edited by Blart; 09-25-2013 at 02:01 PM..
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Old 09-25-2013, 01:11 PM   #29
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How is the wealth gap 'the important point'

Does it matter to you how much more stuff people you don't know have.? Is life not fair?

The real problem is lack of industry and middle class opportunity. And that doesn't come via federal regulation. Although it can be ended by it.
The wealth gap matters because economic power fuels political power. As wealth continues to accumulate in the hands of a tiny minority, our democracy is more and more undermined.

Perhaps more importantly wealth inequality leads, in the long term, to economic instability (i.e. what we're seeing now) -- especially in a consumption driven economy. As I oft repeat: doesn't matter now much money the "job creators" have if there is no one that can afford to give patronage to the businesses those "job creators" might create. So no businesses are created or expanded, and no new jobs are created.

Captial doesn't create jobs. Demand creates jobs. Neither is sufficient on its own.
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Old 09-25-2013, 01:59 PM   #30
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I know the gifs I posted can be confusing, but Obama wasn't our president in the late 70's, when our country began cutting benefits to the lower classes, which has been ongoing.

Welfare benefits in the USA, per recipient, adjusted for inflation

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators08/apa.shtml#ftanf2

Secondly, you don't know who I voted for, and you have no clue who I campaigned for, because just like your football & political opinions, you rush to judgements without adequate evidence.

For the record, I voted for Jill Stein and campaigned for Elizabeth Warren (she's now doing a ****ing awesome job taking on the banks) and Alan Grayson (who did a wonderful job stopping a war on Syria). If I lived in a swing state, I'd have held my nose and voted for Obama. Capitalism, imperialism, and environmental destruction with an embarrassed smile was much preferable to the bold-faced, unabashed capitalism & imperialism of Romney/Ryan.
It's funny that in your view widespread wealth disparity growth is driven by marginal cuts in welfare benefits (which don't really exist. We spend more on social welfare than ever before) But the insinuation doesn't pass even a basic economic sniff test. What is your graph saying? If we paid welfare recipients $240/month instead of $150, the wealth gap would meaningfully shrink? That wouldn't touch it.

The growth in wealth disparity is mostly a product of deindustrialization, and its impact on low and middle-class jobs. If you want the lower classes to catch up, they need decent work. Not a slightly larger federal check in the mail.
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:01 PM   #31
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The wealth gap matters because economic power fuels political power. As wealth continues to accumulate in the hands of a tiny minority, our democracy is more and more undermined.

Perhaps more importantly wealth inequality leads, in the long term, to economic instability (i.e. what we're seeing now) -- especially in a consumption driven economy. As I oft repeat: doesn't matter now much money the "job creators" have if there is no one that can afford to give patronage to the businesses those "job creators" might create. So no businesses are created or expanded, and no new jobs are created.

Captial doesn't create jobs. Demand creates jobs. Neither is sufficient on its own.
Wealth disparity is a symptom. Not the disease.
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:06 PM   #32
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Wealth disparity is a symptom. Not the disease.
I agree. The disease is supply side foolishness.
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:15 PM   #33
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The growth in wealth disparity is mostly a product of deindustrialization, and its impact on low and middle-class jobs. If you want the lower classes to catch up, they need decent work. Not a slightly larger federal check in the mail.
Ah yes, and all we have to do to bring those factories back home is to change our minimum wage to a bowl of rice per day, padlock the fire exits, and expect to lose a hand or two while we work unpaid overtime. Free market at work.

Or we could have copied Nordic/Western European countries and made it difficult for our companies offshore in the first place.
http://www.economist.com/news/specia...ce-staying-put

Last edited by Blart; 09-25-2013 at 02:18 PM..
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:16 PM   #34
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I agree. The disease is supply side foolishness.
Do you realize that blaming Reagan at this point would've been akin to Reagan blaming Truman? At some point the excuses have to expire.
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #35
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Do you realize that blaming Reagan at this point would've been akin to Reagan blaming Truman? At some point the excuses have to expire.
Had we stopped playing the trickle down game, you'd have a point.
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:35 PM   #36
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Had we stopped playing the trickle down game, you'd have a point.
Yeah, good old supply-side Clinton just kept it rollin'

I'd say we were closer to never really trying it than we are to keeping it alive today.

But that's a whole other No True Scotsman rabbit trail.
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:55 PM   #37
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Yeah, good old supply-side Clinton just kept it rollin'

I'd say we were closer to never really trying it than we are to keeping it alive today.

But that's a whole other No True Scotsman rabbit trail.
No president since Reagan has actually attempted to stop the supply side crap.
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Old 09-25-2013, 03:01 PM   #38
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No president since Reagan has actually attempted to stop the supply side crap.
Truth.

It wasn't until 2008 that the Chicago School's influence finally broke, only to come back in full force in 2010 with the austerity wave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...onomic_thought
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:01 PM   #39
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No president since Reagan has actually attempted to stop the supply side crap.
You do realize that "supply side" economics is about far more than just tax rates.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:55 PM   #40
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I know the gifs I posted can be confusing, but Obama wasn't our president in the late 70's, when our country began cutting benefits to the lower classes, which has been ongoing.
I'm sorry that you are confused by your own graphs. Also not sure what TANF benefits in 2007 have anything to do with the current administration's assault on the middle class.

Take a look at this graph. Looks like welfare benefits have been exploding to me. What do you think?


Last edited by pricejj; 09-25-2013 at 05:57 PM..
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:35 AM   #41
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The Obama supporters complained the republicans were getting rid of the middle class, if even one exists anyway, but fail to show how Obama has done a thing to help. Sorry, but raising everyone's taxes multiple ways doesn't do that. Record numbers of people on government assistance of some sort doesn't either. But glad we have the time and money to mess with Syria with the shape our economy is in, when liberals and democrats used to believe such things were a waste even when the economy was in good shape, but as we know, it's different when democrats do it.
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:41 AM   #42
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...raising everyone's taxes multiple ways doesn't do that.
Can you give us some examples of these "multiple" tax raises you've experienced since Obama took office?
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:19 AM   #43
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Can you give us some examples of these "multiple" tax raises you've experienced since Obama took office?
Obamacare has 18 of them.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/20/...new-tax-hikes/
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:29 AM   #44
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Massive asset inflation, ZIRP, deliberate devaluation of the US dollar are other method's of monetary manipulation that act as a tax for poor, and those who hold dollars (and not real assets).
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:35 AM   #45
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Not only does the principal on Obama's debt have to paid for at some point, but the interest on his debt also has to be paid monthly.
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:57 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Blart View Post
Yeah, boy that inflation is out of control You austrians never give up.


Aside from all the economic anti-math voodoo, I'm glad that everyone in this thread acknowledges there's a wealth gap and it's increasing. That's the important point.
Inflation is awful right now. Have you bought deli meat lately?

These threads are always a waste of time because progressives absolutely refuse to examine the federal reserves role in this stuff, which is what I've come to expect. Even if I ever wanted to become a quote unquote "progressive" I'd have to put on so many blinders and then defend so many corrupt people that I'd never feel clean.

The nice thing about being a libertarian is that I was able to evicerate GWB without feeling like I was losing anything. Meanwhile, progressives defend Obama like he's actually done anything worthwhile for the progressive cause.

Guess what - libertarians don't care that your gay. We don't care if people smoke pot. We are anti war. And best of all - we actually make sure the people we vote for actually conduct themselves that way as well.

I'll never understand why so-called "progressives" think they're getting anything by voting for Democrats except the ability to say they didn't vote for a Republican. I haven't voted for a Republican president since I was able to vote. I only vote for people who I believe will honestly represent me.
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:59 AM   #47
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Obamacare has 18 of them.
Have you been impacted by any of them yet? (I know the answer, just wondering if you do...)
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:08 AM   #48
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Have you been impacted by any of them yet? (I know the answer, just wondering if you do...)
Yes of course, effects have been accumulating since the law was passed. If you did your research, you would find that many of the direct tax implications for the middle-class begin in 2014 (hence the dispute in congress).

Anyway, you asked if someone could name a single tax that that has been raised during the Obama administration. Now I've named dozens. Every time I answer a question, you ignore my answer and ask a new question? Sounds like a great game that I want no part of.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #49
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Yes of course, effects have been accumulating since the law was passed. If you did your research, you would find that many of the direct tax implications for the middle-class begin in 2014 (hence the dispute in congress).

Anyway, you asked if someone could name a single tax that that has been raised during the Obama administration. Now I've named dozens. Every time I answer a question, you ignore my answer and ask a new question? Sounds like a great game that I want no part of.
Good, then STFU.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:20 AM   #50
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Yes of course, effects have been accumulating since the law was passed. If you did your research, you would find that many of the direct tax implications for the middle-class begin in 2014 (hence the dispute in congress).

Anyway, you asked if someone could name a single tax that that has been raised during the Obama administration. Now I've named dozens. Every time I answer a question, you ignore my answer and ask a new question? Sounds like a great game that I want no part of.
So you're saying that tax increases that start in 2014 have already impacted you? Suggesting you've dabbled in time travel?
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