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Old 09-17-2013, 07:38 AM   #26
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We're talking about Champ vs Tony Carter here. There is NO CONTEST. If you think Carter is better than Champ, even at this age, you're crazy. I like Carter. He's arguably the best back up CB in the league, but his skills (other than a slight speed advantage ) are no match for the Champ.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:53 AM   #27
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Sad to say, but Champ isn't the player he once was.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:59 AM   #28
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Champ isn't as good as he was 5 years ago, but based on his play last year, apart from one bad game, he is still a shutdown corner. When Champ gets back on the field we will have 3 of the top 20 CBs in the game playing on our defense. Once Von gets back the combined effect of pass rush with superior coverage will make it very difficult on QBs trying to mount a comeback. Hopefully when Von gets back Wolfe will be completely over his preseason injury and will be a factor in the pass rush again. Add in Phillips, Jackson, and some creative blitzing by Woodyard and Trevathon, and we should have a lot of fun watching our defense. Our season will truly start when we play the Colts. Providing there are no more injuries we should finally be back at full strength. (I am assuming that Clady will be back by then as well.)
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:02 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmsanger View Post
This is why...
Meh. Harris got beat by Cruz for 51 yards on the Giants' first play from scrimmage on Sunday and nobody's writing him off. It happens. Yes, Champ had a tough day against the Ravens. But he was very good the whole season.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:03 AM   #30
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champ will be asked to take a significant pay cut next year
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:09 AM   #31
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In terms of skill and veteran savvyness, Champ is still the best. In terms of raw speed and ability to cover big, fast WR's w/o safety help, that goes to DRC.

I think Champs days as a shutdown corner are over - no more closing down 1/2 of the field single-handed. Thats ok though, because he still has some damn fine skills and is clearly an asset.
What exactly is "skill" if it's not "raw speed and ability to cover big, fast WR's w/o safety help"?
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:10 AM   #32
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Champ is the best corner in a generation to play anywhere.
Fixed
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:11 AM   #33
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champ will be asked to take a significant pay cut next year
He's lucky he wasn't asked to take a cut this year. Just like Dumerville not being worth $12 million, Champ is not worth $10 mill.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:32 AM   #34
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He's lucky he wasn't asked to take a cut this year. Just like Dumerville not being worth $12 million, Champ is not worth $10 mill.
Prepare your anus. The Champbowners will not be happy with this comment.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:40 AM   #35
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Lot's of very reactionary responses to the demise of Champ Bailey! What else would you expect from the OM gallery!

The truth is Champ has been very hard to throw the ball at for a very long time. We have a very solid group of younger CB's who are not very easy to throw the ball at them either. The real issue here is are we better when Champ comes back?

I think that is a no brainer. Champ is not the Elite Athlete he once was, but he is a hell of a lot smarter on the route recognition and combinations than the young guys. He can intercept the ball, something the young guys have not proved they can do yet. He also provides leadership on the field to a young group of guys who get overanxious sometimes. See all the stupid yellow flags the secondary left on the field last week for that. Champ rarely gets flagged for anything. Finally, and this part is always lost when discussing CB's he can make plays in the run game and does not get edge sealed very often. Which will make it even tougher for teams to run the ball than it already is.

I also thought it was mentioned that Harris did get schooled by Cruz pretty much this weekend, including several non-calls on PI and holding that I saw. Tony Carter has improved every year, but is a solid cover guy. DRC has been very good so far, but struggles in zone a lot more than man. We have 4 very good CB's, but no question in my mind Champ is still a starting CB on this team. I just want to see how teams try and attack the CB's once he is back. My guess is they find ways to attack Moore again.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:00 AM   #36
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I think Champ can still help this team starting at CB. He may not be the Champ he was 5 years ago, but he's still a very good CB. He's still an upgrade over Tony Carter (not taking away from him).
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:16 AM   #37
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Quote:
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What exactly is "skill" if it's not "raw speed and ability to cover big, fast WR's w/o safety help"?
route recognition, setting up receivers and bait QB's, body control, ball skills, ability to quickly change direction (as opposed to straight line speed), hand-fighting, tackling, leadership, etc.

you know, the little stuff. The kind of stuff you learn after lining up against the NFL's best for the past decade.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:30 AM   #38
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Meh. Harris got beat by Cruz for 51 yards on the Giants' first play from scrimmage on Sunday and nobody's writing him off. It happens. Yes, Champ had a tough day against the Ravens. But he was very good the whole season.

Freaking A right.............lets get rid of Harris too.

The people that don't deserve any respect are are those calling for us to cut Champ.......everybody has a bad day once in a while.

Grant you his came at a bad time but it happens.

He isn't done and is still better than all but 4-5 corners in this league.

Years ago a-holes proclaimed him done after a bad game against Bowe............next time out he shut BOWE out.


Some of you need to check yourselves before typing........
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:37 AM   #39
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The people that don't deserve any respect are are those calling for us to cut Champ.....
Who's done that?
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:17 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwill07 View Post
route recognition, setting up receivers and bait QB's, body control, ball skills, ability to quickly change direction (as opposed to straight line speed), hand-fighting, tackling, leadership, etc.

you know, the little stuff. The kind of stuff you learn after lining up against the NFL's best for the past decade.
Almost all of which falls under the umbrella of "covering"
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:34 AM   #41
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All legitimate arguments although I do not believe Champ is done just yet. Even if Champ is now just a #2 CB as some say, the media talking heads act like the addition of Champ back into the lineup isn't going to make a difference at all.

And IMO pure speed isn't the end all measurement of a shut down CB. #1 WR's aren't always the fastest on a team. Rarely do pure speed, hands & route running meld together in one athlete.

The arguments put forth here are the type you'd expect from the NFL analysts. But instead NOTHING. Not good. Not bad. I mean NOTING. As if he retired or something. Just very odd IMO.

IMO, I think Champ has entered that point in his career where he's lost his stamina and 1/2 a step. Age will do that. But given rest through out the game his experience will make up for the 1/2 step.

Any way you slice it, A player like Champ in our rotation changes the dynamic by a huge factor.

Last edited by Bronco Yoda; 09-17-2013 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:39 AM   #42
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I've watched two different groups of talking heads today on NFL network & also ESPN talking about some of the things that Denver has overcome so far.

Obviously Miller is the key talking point. Much is made how Denvers D will only get better when he returns & how they've managed to go on without him so far.

Interestingly enough Champ being out wasn't mentioned ONCE in all three segments. Not one talking head even acknowledged that our future HOF CB has been out.

Just struck me as odd how invisible Champ seems to have become as of late.
Thee secondary has 6 INTs over 2 games and is doing a really good job. there is no need to mention Champ as there has been no drop-off in production. In fact the secondary is better this year than it was last. It has nothing to do with disrespecting or not knowing Champ is not present, it has to do with the rest of the secondary has stepped up and more than made up for his absence. In the case of Von, the pass rush has not made up for his absence, so it becomes a big deal
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:42 AM   #43
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One way the team could use Champ would be like he did years ago against the Chefs. Put him one the TE when Denver faces a team with a TE that is a weapon.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:44 AM   #44
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while Champ isn't what he use to be, he can still help this team win a title as he's a smart, heady player whose mentoring the younger guys on the team has obviously paid big dividends for the Broncos.

I just hope Broncos win it all this year so he can retire a champion because Father Time is very unforgiving when he decides to mandate the erosion of skills.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:46 AM   #45
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In fact the secondary is better this year than it was last. It has nothing to do with disrespecting or not knowing Champ is not present...
Oh yes it does!! You disrespectful son of a b1tch! How dare you suggest we cut Champ!!
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:48 AM   #46
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Thee secondary has 6 INTs over 2 games and is doing a really good job. there is no need to mention Champ as there has been no drop-off in production. In fact the secondary is better this year than it was last. It has nothing to do with disrespecting or not knowing Champ is not present, it has to do with the rest of the secondary has stepped up and more than made up for his absence. In the case of Von, the pass rush has not made up for his absence, so it becomes a big deal
And this is what makes it good to be a Broncos fan this season...

Our secondary is creating turnovers despite not having a very good pass rush. Our offense putting opponents behind the 8 ball helps as our D is now pinning their ears back as teams are forced to pass playing catch up.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:55 AM   #47
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And this is what makes it good to be a Broncos fan this season...

Our secondary is creating turnovers despite not having a very good pass rush. Our offense putting opponents behind the 8 ball helps as our D is now pinning their ears back as teams are forced to pass playing catch up.
It is mostly the QB throwing the ball right to our guys though, even though that counts

Not many of those INT's were because of good coverage, most have been awful QB decisions. Eli threw 2 of them into Triple coverage and Flacco was not much better. Playing from the lead helps in all kinds of ways and the threat of being blown out if you do not score has led 2 QB's to make some real bad throws.

That being said, the DB's have more than done their job getting thrown at a lot as teams try and play catch up. And, they have played well as a group and made only a few errors that have cost them.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:57 AM   #48
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hey look, no flag

Agreed...Not to make excuses because it was clearly a rough game for him overall but that sure looked like offensive PI to me. Look how Champ has position until Smith's push makes him irrelevant as the ball comes in. A clear pushoff. Decker gets flagged for that all the time.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:09 PM   #49
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Thee secondary has 6 INTs over 2 games and is doing a really good job. there is no need to mention Champ as there has been no drop-off in production. In fact the secondary is better this year than it was last. It has nothing to do with disrespecting or not knowing Champ is not present, it has to do with the rest of the secondary has stepped up and more than made up for his absence. In the case of Von, the pass rush has not made up for his absence, so it becomes a big deal
I get what you're saying. I can't dispute any of this. I first thought the same thing. But then (think it was Sapp) who brought up that both opponents WR's were out. That we hadn't we hadn't really been tested yet. Where then Billick listed all the starting players on both O & D that are still out. Even mentioning how the Broncos dropped all those balls and still managed to dominate. And then imagine how we'll be when we work all the kinks out AND get all these players back. Still no mention of Champ by name. Maybe just a coincidence in oversight. I don't really know.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:15 PM   #50
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Secondary is playing well and you can always use an elite pass rusher to return.
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