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Old 08-17-2013, 01:21 PM   #26
nyuk nyuk
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Zeus help your reading skills and comprehension. I didn't say what you claim. I said

Was absolutely everything we did in "stopping Soviet expansionism" completely moral and right? Please make your case.

And Israel's defense is Israel's problem, not ours. They're more than capable of defense.
I've already discussed US foreign policy in the Cold War with you. How can you have a discussion on this topic when your opponent's research into US interventionism is reduced to copy and pasting from anti-American lefty websites that condemn any and all US interventionism as it got in the way of the leftist agenda? I've not seen in one instance in which you were remotely willing to reserve judgment against your country on the grounds that it was legitimately stopping Soviet expansionism.

Part of international alliances is the defense of our neighbors and allies. Get used to the idea. Israel was being invaded by all of its neighbors and you howled at the US for having the audacity to intervene and putting a stop to a small part of that? Huh?!!
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:25 PM   #27
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I've already discussed US foreign policy in the Cold War with you.
No, you just spewed the usual beat-the-Commies-at-any-cost crap so typical of neoBircher dorks.

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Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk
How can you have a discussion on this topic when your opponent's research into US interventionism is reduced to copy and pasting from anti-American lefty websites that condemn any and all US interventionism as it got in the way of the leftist agenda? I've not seen in one instance in which you were remotely willing to reserve judgment against your country on the grounds that it was legitimately stopping Soviet expansionism.
I've not seen one instance of you even allowing that the US committed immoral acts during the Cold War. Speaking of blind nationalist hacks...

BTW, since when is judging one's country as falling short of its ideals a bad thing? Oh yeah - to conservatives, America is always right. Always. Anyone who dares question anything we do is automatically anti-America, a traitor, a scumbag, and ought to be deported or executed so they can burn in hell forever.

Damn, but you're one protofascist puke.

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Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk
Part of international alliances is the defense of our neighbors and allies. Get used to the idea. Israel was being invaded by all of its neighbors and you howled at the US for having the audacity to intervene and putting a stop to a small part of that? Huh?!!
Our alliance with Israel is far more trouble than it's worth. Time for us to cut them off. They have no enemies that they can't handle. Yes, even Iran.

Last edited by W*GS; 08-17-2013 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:25 PM   #28
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Places where I usually speak with liberals, they are 100% blind partisan hacks and admit no wrongdoing, especially when that wrongdoing is discussed by conservatives. What dissent there is from Obama here is not the norm in my experience over a number of years. Most of these are chat rooms and there is no saved conversations or links to them. Unfortunately where liberals here digress from Obama is usually that he isn't liberal enough, that he's not enough of a partisan hack.
How convenient. I didn't even know chat rooms existed anymore.

And gee. Do you really think its possible to think Obama isn't liberal enough WHILE disagreeing with things like his policy on drones?

You don't say.
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:43 PM   #29
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How convenient. I didn't even know chat rooms existed anymore.

And gee. Do you really think its possible to think Obama isn't liberal enough WHILE disagreeing with things like his policy on drones?

You don't say.
Convenient? What is this, a conspiracy theory? You can look up plenty of chat rooms on a search engine. As far as I know the large AOL network is still up. Some partisan liberals there, too.

Meh, I'll be more impressed with the little disagreement on drone policy when they shout WAR CRIMINAL!! the way they did over Bush.

So let's hear it!
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:49 PM   #30
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No, you just spewed the usual beat-the-Commies-at-any-cost crap so typical of neoBircher dorks.



I've not seen one instance of you even allowing that the US committed immoral acts during the Cold War. Speaking of blind nationalist hacks...

BTW, since when is judging one's country as falling short of its ideals a bad thing? Oh yeah - to conservatives, America is always right. Always. Anyone who dares question anything we do is automatically anti-America, a traitor, a scumbag, and ought to be deported or executed so they can burn in hell forever.

Damn, but you're one protofascist puke.



Our alliance with Israel is far more trouble than it's worth. Time for us to cut them off. They have no enemies that they can't handle. Yes, even Iran.
"Beating the Commies" is not crap, it was the bread and butter of US foreign policy for decades. Immoral acts in the Cold War? Yeah - narcotics trafficking.

Your problem is that you continue to blanket indict the US government for interventions and actions it took to justifiably stop the USSR from gaining a foothold outside its sphere of power without bothering to look at the context and background of them. As far as morals go, I don't see how anyone can make a moral argument against the US stepping in in Syria to stop that government from invading Israel, knowing what would happen to the population of Israel had the invasion been successful. Hitler treated them better than what they would have suffered at the hands of those people. Every single Jew in that country would have been butchered within a week. Period.

I didn't realize that resisting Marxist revolutionary movements backed by the USSR and Jew-hating nut jobs was a violation of American ideals. I stand corrected.

How on earth am I remotely fascist? I think I'd at least to have to admire people like Hitler and Mussolini first. If letting Jews be butchered is moral, why am I the one being called a fascist here?
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:12 PM   #31
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"Beating the Commies" is not crap, it was the bread and butter of US foreign policy for decades. Immoral acts in the Cold War? Yeah - narcotics trafficking.
You're a dishonest turd, because you know you can't be honest and make your arguments work. You have to tell (at best) half-truths. You know it, I know it, and everyone else here knows it.

Drop the juvenile bull - GTFU and quit being so blatantly unprincipled.

The sole thing the US did during the Cold War that you find wrong is drug trafficking? Everything else was A-OK and right and moral and good? That's utter rubbish.

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Your problem is that you continue to blanket indict the US government for interventions and actions it took to justifiably stop the USSR from gaining a foothold outside its sphere of power without bothering to look at the context and background of them.
Realpolitik strikes again. So long as the USSR was in **** 10 feet deep, we could sink to 9 feet 11 and 63/64ths inches and be the Good Guys.

We shoulda nuked Moscow sometime between '46 and '48, eh?

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As far as morals go, I don't see how anyone can make a moral argument against the US stepping in in Syria to stop that government from invading Israel, knowing what would happen to the population of Israel had the invasion been successful. Hitler treated them better than what they would have suffered at the hands of those people. Every single Jew in that country would have been butchered within a week. Period.
Thanks for the hyperbole.

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I didn't realize that resisting Marxist revolutionary movements backed by the USSR and Jew-hating nut jobs was a violation of American ideals. I stand corrected.
It was some of the things we did we in pursuit of those goals that were far below our ideals as nation. Do you honestly believe that absolutely every action undertaken by the US during the Cold War was moral and good? Every single one?

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How on earth am I remotely fascist? I think I'd at least to have to admire people like Hitler and Mussolini first. If letting Jews be butchered is moral, why am I the one being called a fascist here?
Should the US have allied itself with Hitler before Nazi Germany invaded the USSR, because the USSR was the greater evil? Why not?

The defense of Israel is Israel's job, not ours. That doesn't mean I want Jews slaughtered. What an incredibly simplistic and dumbass belief. Typical of you, though.
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #32
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Wog, you wanted an example of what the US did that was immoral in the Cold War, and you got an example. I could also add firebombings but that was pre-Cold War. As I said you can find no good in US foreign policy and take the leftist stance of hating all of it without distinction, co-opting their blanket indictments which originate with America's stance against the spread of radical leftism and nothing more. As I've said here many times, the moral arguments of the radical left come from politics, not morals. They morally condemn anyone in their way. Unfortunately you seem to have joined the many millions of those who have not known this and have taken their moralistic whining seriously. I was like that once, then I began to make some realizations. Copy and pasting their crap only makes you a dupe. It also makes you look like you have no argument of your own, which I've already gleaned from our discussions that that is the case.

I'd absolutely love to know how standing against Soviet aggression was "realpolitik" and not a valid ethical position. Your argument here reeks of something I would see from the radical left. If you're so concerned about a moral and ethical motivation, why do you keep throwing Israel under the bus per the invasions? Let the Syrians and their allies butcher the Jews because it's the moral thing to do? Whut?

My Israel statement was not hyperbole. Do you really think they'd have all come in and held a big party with the Jews? Perhaps played Twister? The Game of Life? Really?

Hitler was as aggressively expansionist as Stalin was, so why would the US have allied with Hitler?
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:21 PM   #33
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Wog, you wanted an example of what the US did that was immoral in the Cold War, and you got an example. I could also add firebombings but that was pre-Cold War. As I said you can find no good in US foreign policy and take the leftist stance of hating all of it without distinction, co-opting their blanket indictments which originate with America's stance against the spread of radical leftism and nothing more. As I've said here many times, the moral arguments of the radical left come from politics, not morals. They morally condemn anyone in their way. Unfortunately you seem to have joined the many millions of those who have not known this and have taken their moralistic whining seriously. I was like that once, then I began to make some realizations. Copy and pasting their crap only makes you a dupe. It also makes you look like you have no argument of your own, which I've already gleaned from our discussions that that is the case.

I'd absolutely love to know how standing against Soviet aggression was "realpolitik" and not a valid ethical position. Your argument here reeks of something I would see from the radical left. If you're so concerned about a moral and ethical motivation, why do you keep throwing Israel under the bus per the invasions? Let the Syrians and their allies butcher the Jews because it's the moral thing to do? Whut?

My Israel statement was not hyperbole. Do you really think they'd have all come in and held a big party with the Jews? Perhaps played Twister? The Game of Life? Really?

Hitler was as aggressively expansionist as Stalin was, so why would the US have allied with Hitler?
Could you please expound on how Syria was planning on massacring every Jew in Israel? I'm curious what you're even talking about.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:28 PM   #34
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Wog, you wanted an example of what the US did that was immoral in the Cold War, and you got an example.
You used the phrase "narcotics trafficking" without specifics. How was it immoral? Are narcotics immoral?

But everything else - the undeclared wars, the wars-by-proxy, the support of dictators, the coups, the assassinations - were all A-OK by you.

Why?

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As I said you can find no good in US foreign policy and take the leftist stance of hating all of it without distinction, co-opting their blanket indictments which originate with America's stance against the spread of radical leftism and nothing more.
You can find no wrong in US foreign policy and take the rightist stance of supporting all of it without distinction. You think America was so weak it couldn't sink to the level of the USSR and prevail. You support abandoning every single principle that America stands for. How does that your blind support of the US any different than the most committed Communist's blind support of the USSR? Anything to "win"? Why?

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As I've said here many times, the moral arguments of the radical left come from politics, not morals.
Explain:



A pure example of politics, not morals. Was Rummy part of the "radical left"?

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I'd absolutely love to know how standing against Soviet aggression was "realpolitik" and not a valid ethical position.
Some of what we did to fight the USSR was pure realpolitik. Immoral but served our political ends at the moment. Obliterations of everything that America stands for - or at least is supposed to, in clear difference to every other nation on the planet. You and your ilk are the ones who made a mockery of American exceptionalism, with your penchant for bottom-feeding and crude political games at the expense of our principles and the lives of endless numbers of innocents.

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If you're so concerned about a moral and ethical motivation, why do you keep throwing Israel under the bus per the invasions? Let the Syrians and their allies butcher the Jews because it's the moral thing to do? Whut?
I've already explained. Israel's defense is Israel's problem. If you believe them incapable of protecting themselves, then move there and help 'em out.

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Hitler was as aggressively expansionist as Stalin was, so why would the US have allied with Hitler?
We allied ourselves with Stalin to defeat Hitler. Was that wise?
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:29 PM   #35
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Could you please expound on how Syria was planning on massacring every Jew in Israel? I'm curious what you're even talking about.
Me too. nyuk is obviously of the Israel-can-do-no-wrong school of hardcore conservatism.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:36 PM   #36
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Could you please expound on how Syria was planning on massacring every Jew in Israel? I'm curious what you're even talking about.
I am not going to review a debate on middle east history here. Use your search function.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:41 PM   #37
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I am not going to review a debate on middle east history here. Use your search function.
Are you referring to the Yom Kippur War? If so, your understanding of it is...cursory, at best.

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Old 08-17-2013, 03:45 PM   #38
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Some of what we did to fight the USSR was pure realpolitik. Immoral but served our political ends at the moment. Obliterations of everything that America stands for - or at least is supposed to...
No, the obliteration of free speech was definitely not a dark day in our history, and DEFINITELY helped 'Murrica win the war against the commies.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:46 PM   #39
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You used the phrase "narcotics trafficking" without specifics. How was it immoral? Are narcotics immoral?
Why should I use specifics? Where have you? You pasted **** from a leftist website with no context of how ANY of those military actions were immoral.

Now in the hell is the immorality of narcotics trafficking not obvious?

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But everything else - the undeclared wars, the wars-by-proxy, the support of dictators, the coups, the assassinations - were all A-OK by you.

Why?
Alzheimers or playing dumb? Even when valid context is applied and explained, you STILL reject every bit of it off-hand.


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You can find no wrong in US foreign policy and take the rightist stance of supporting all of it without distinction. You think America was so weak it couldn't sink to the level of the USSR and prevail. You support abandoning every single principle that America stands for. How does that your blind support of the US any different than the most committed Communist's blind support of the USSR? Anything to "win"? Why?
What is this "rightist stance" nonsense? Do you think the Democrats are against this because they offer lip service to their sucker progressive voters while behind closed doors the torture machines at Gitmo keep whirring?

How is stopping Soviet expansionism "sinking to the level" of them? How did we sink? By backing such as the Contras to counter the Soviet-backed Nicaraguans and establish an even but small military presence in Costa Rica so that country - lacking a standing military - would be safe from being invaded by Nicaragua next door?

What principles am I abandoning? What principles do you think this country stands for? You keep saying that and not specifying while demanding specifics. What in the hell are you talking about?


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A pure example of politics, not morals. Was Rummy part of the "radical left"?
Garbage. Cold War. He was also a buffer against the terrorism-exporting Mullahs. In my opinion he should have been left in power.

Want an even more concerning one?



What in the hell was Obama doing shaking hands with that creep?

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Some of what we did to fight the USSR was pure realpolitik. Immoral but served our political ends at the moment.
Such as? I hope you have more than a vague list from a leftist website this time.


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Obliterations of everything that America stands for - or at least is supposed to, in clear difference to every other nation on the planet. You and your ilk are the ones who made a mockery of American exceptionalism, with your penchant for bottom-feeding and crude political games at the expense of our principles and the lives of endless numbers of innocents.
More vague lectures. What of American exceptionalism have we mocked, other than all I can gather from your posting habits is that you seem to equate American exceptionalism with a liberal welfare state.


We allied with Stalin to defeat a lesser enemy. Sometimes in emergencies, AS I EXPLAINED SEVERAL TIMES, such things are required. Doing so saved lives. Don't tell me - this is "realpolitik" right?
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:52 PM   #40
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Thanks for showing your hand, nyuk. You've played it exactly as I expected.

Here's you...

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Old 08-17-2013, 04:04 PM   #41
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Are you referring to the Yom Kippur War? If so, your understanding of it is...cursory, at best.

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Old 08-17-2013, 04:04 PM   #42
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Thanks for showing your hand, nyuk. You've played it exactly as I expected.

Here's you...

Yes if all else fails you revert to ad hominem, as usual not bothering to explain yourself but argue in these vague concepts you refuse to define.

Help yourself, buddy.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:14 PM   #43
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Yes if all else fails you revert to ad hominem, as usual not bothering to explain yourself but argue in these vague concepts you refuse to define.
I ain't the one making America a bottom-feeder for purely political reasons, damn morality.

That's your schtick.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:26 PM   #44
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Wog, if you aren't going to debate your points faithfully instead of calling names, can you stay off my back?


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Old 08-17-2013, 04:32 PM   #45
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Wog, if you aren't going to debate your points faithfully instead of calling names, can you stay off my back?
I haven't engaged in any name-calling.

You've engaged in name-calling and blatant dishonesty.

Nothing is beneath you so long as you "win". The same "principle" as your view of America's foreign policy. We cannot possibly go too low and too wrong because hey, we're America, and we're always right (because God is on our side)!
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:23 PM   #46
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CIA documents acknowledge its role in Iran's 1953 coup

But according to 'nyuk', America did the Right Thing.

So much for our respect for self-determination.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:23 AM   #47
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:31 AM   #48
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Lol at this thread. Yet the old paranoid guy lives in Mexico among the most corrupt police on the planet. *shrug*

The reality is if a cop so much as farts on someone in America he could end up on youtube within minutes. Beat someone down unjustly. They will be suspended and fired by the end of the week.

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Old 08-23-2013, 11:38 AM   #49
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So how do we do this when they want to ban every other gun out there?

Sounds to me like he's speaking of a well-regulated militia.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:39 AM   #50
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I haven't engaged in any name-calling.

You've engaged in name-calling and blatant dishonesty.

Nothing is beneath you so long as you "win". The same "principle" as your view of America's foreign policy. We cannot possibly go too low and too wrong because hey, we're America, and we're always right (because God is on our side)!
Whatever you say, boss. Namecalling is most of what you do here to everyone, not just me.
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