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Old 07-09-2013, 03:11 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
Again, reading comprehension Cutlet, reading comprehension. All I'm saying (and have been for quote a while) is that the evidence does NOT show that Martin was engaged in any serious punching of Zimmerman (i.e. a "beat down"). Martin does NOT have the type and extent of hand injuries consistent with that claim. And Zimmerman does not have the kind of injuries that would result from such a thing.
you think you are being so clever all the while talking about opinions on how hard the beatdown was when its not even a central point to a conviction on murder 2. The fight didn't need to result in Zimmerman having serious wounds. It only needs to show he was losing a fight and in fear for more serious bodily injury or death. What does that show? It shows the shooting does not rise to the level of murder 2.

I will explain for you again. To prove murder 2 they will have to prove to the jury 3 elements.


1- a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

2- is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

3- is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.


The Prosecution has not come close to showing Zimmerman went out to kill himself a black boy that night. They showed him exactly like it happened. He was a concerned citizen who saw a suscpicious person. Or he was an overzealous wanna be cop trying to play neighborhood hero. Either way neither of those show hatred or ill will, or racism. All they can prove is a reasonable person would expect the act of shooting someone to kill. They get 1 out of 3 but won't be able to eliminate reasonable doubt on the other 2 elements. People like you and Houghtam are focusing closely on things like saying i believe it was Trayvon screaming. Those injuries not life threatening. But the evidence says that even the dad didn't think it was at first. Then you get other witnesses who say its Zimmerman. At the best this issue is 50/50 and enough reasonable doubt for some jurors to believe it was Zimmerman. Thats why when I saw they could not use voice experts to say who they think it was I knew the trial was over with.

Then also a person can be killing you and maybe its not until the 5th punch you go out. Point is you should have defended yourself after the first punch when you still could. So him shooting after only a few punches landed is still self defense.



Comprehend or did my grammar make it too hard for you?
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:07 PM   #352
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Trainer testifies 'physically soft' Zimmerman's athletic skills and fighting prowess quite low
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...wess-quite-low


Zimmerman was a 5'7"" wimpy who couldn't even throw a punch according to his trainer. Was obviously empowered with having a gun.

Trayvon was a 6' tough 17 yr old who bragged about fighting and refereeing other fights.

A young tall bad ass full of piss and vinegar vs. a short wimp who was packing heat.

I read this earlier and wondered why he was taking MMA classes, instead of self defense. This sentence from your link put his trainer's comments into perspective.
Quote:

He said Zimmerman never became skilled enough to fight in the ring.
So he wasn't a ring ready MMA badass, but he apparently had a history of aggression.

Quote:
“Usually he was just a cool guy,” said the former co-worker, who the newspaper didn't name. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When dude snapped, he snapped.” The Daily News said Zimmerman earned $50 to $100 a night for the parties. He was fired for being too aggressive with patrons.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1392591.html

He was also arrested for assaulting a cop and a domestic violence incident when he was slapping his girlfriend around.

He also enjoyed a significant weight advantage....nearly 30lbs

Martin was 5'11" and 158lbs.
Zimmerman 5'8" and 185lbs.

Zimmerman was no cage fighter, but his history of aggression and losing control makes me wonder if he thought Martin was going to be an easy mark.

After all, he outweighed him by nearly 30 lbs and had spent a year taking MMA classes.....and was carrying a gun.

What could go wrong??

Last edited by DenverBrit; 07-09-2013 at 04:10 PM..
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:24 PM   #353
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I read this earlier and wondered why he was taking MMA classes, instead of self defense. This sentence from your link put his trainer's comments into perspective.


So he wasn't a ring ready MMA badass, but he apparently had a history of aggression.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1392591.html

He was also arrested for assaulting a cop and a domestic violence incident when he was slapping his girlfriend around.

He also enjoyed a significant weight advantage....nearly 30lbs

Martin was 5'11" and 158lbs.
Zimmerman 5'8" and 185lbs.

Zimmerman was no cage fighter, but his history of aggression and losing control makes me wonder if he thought Martin was going to be an easy mark.

After all, he outweighed him by nearly 30 lbs and had spent a year taking MMA classes.....and was carrying a gun.

What could go wrong??
Zimmerman never fought. He never was good enough to ever enter the ring. He was in a glorified weight loss regiment. You get good at fighting by doing not watching or we'd all be Heavy weight champs by watching HBO fight night.

Tray was a fighter. He didn't 'watch it'. He did it. liked it. boasted about it... and apparently was good at it. Obviously.... Tray kicked his ass without receiving a single mark until he was shot.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:24 PM   #354
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you think you are being so clever all the while talking about opinions on how hard the beatdown was when its not even a central point to a conviction on murder 2. The fight didn't need to result in Zimmerman having serious wounds. It only needs to show he was losing a fight and in fear for more serious bodily injury or death. What does that show? It shows the shooting does not rise to the level of murder 2.

I will explain for you again. To prove murder 2 they will have to prove to the jury 3 elements.


1- a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

2- is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

3- is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.


The Prosecution has not come close to showing Zimmerman went out to kill himself a black boy that night. They showed him exactly like it happened. He was a concerned citizen who saw a suscpicious person. Or he was an overzealous wanna be cop trying to play neighborhood hero. Either way neither of those show hatred or ill will, or racism. All they can prove is a reasonable person would expect the act of shooting someone to kill. They get 1 out of 3 but won't be able to eliminate reasonable doubt on the other 2 elements. People like you and Houghtam are focusing closely on things like saying i believe it was Trayvon screaming. Those injuries not life threatening. But the evidence says that even the dad didn't think it was at first. Then you get other witnesses who say its Zimmerman. At the best this issue is 50/50 and enough reasonable doubt for some jurors to believe it was Zimmerman. Thats why when I saw they could not use voice experts to say who they think it was I knew the trial was over with.

Then also a person can be killing you and maybe its not until the 5th punch you go out. Point is you should have defended yourself after the first punch when you still could. So him shooting after only a few punches landed is still self defense.



Comprehend or did my grammar make it too hard for you?
LMAO You still are struggling mightily with the reading comprehension, idjit. All I am saying is that the claim made by several witnesses and Zimmerman that Martin was actually in the process of putting a serious beating on Zimmerman does not follow from the physical evidence. Clearly, Zimmerman and the witnesses are lying/mistaken about what was happening. Remember, they claimed the beat down was actually happening, not about to happen. I am NOT making any claim about Zimmerman's state of mind. I'm only talking about the obvious discordance between what Zimmerman and various witnesses are claiming (in an attempt to justify a self defense plea) and what the physical evidence shows.

Even someone with your greatly limited mental capacity should be able to comprehend the difference there. Though perhaps I have overestimated you.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:35 PM   #355
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Zimmerman never fought. He never was good enough to ever enter the ring. He was in a glorified weight loss regiment. You get good at fighting by doing not watching or we'd all be Heavy weight champs by watching HBO fight night.

Tray was a fighter. He didn't 'watch it'. He did it. liked it. boasted about it... and apparently was good at it. Obviously.... Tray kicked his ass without receiving a single mark until he was shot.
It's unlikely for someone to be be punch someone in the face or with an unprotected fist and not have significant injuries to the knuckles. It's exceedingly unlikely to avoid self injury to the knuckles when you're throwing many punches, as is claimed.

There's a reason boxers and martial artists wrap or otherwise protect their knuckles even when they are "just" working a heavy bag or other training exercise. Hint: It ain't to protect the heavy bag.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:38 PM   #356
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Bruising stops when the heart stops pumping.

btw. I did organized boxing in high school.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:46 PM   #357
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Bruising stops when the heart stops pumping.

btw. I did organized boxing in high school.
Cuts, scrapes and even more minor injuries don't heal on corpses.

If you want to compare cocks, then I'll tell you I have 20+ years worth of martial arts, including tournament fighting and all the other silly associated things like board/block breaking, under my belt.

You want to put a beat down on someone bare knuckled? Go ahead, but you'll be coming away with injured knuckles.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:53 PM   #358
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Cuts, scrapes and even more minor injuries don't heal on corpses.

If you want to compare cocks, then I'll tell you I have 20+ years worth of martial arts, including tournament fighting and all the other silly associated things like board/block breaking, under my belt.

You want to put a beat down on someone bare knuckled? Go ahead, but you'll be coming away with injured knuckles.
You're such a bad ass
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:55 PM   #359
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You're such a bad ass
Never claimed I was. Try again.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:57 PM   #360
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You're exactly the type of idiot that get's shot because he thinks he's Chuck Norris.

Guess you learned nothing from this trial.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:04 PM   #361
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You're exactly the type of idiot that get's shot because he thinks he's Chuck Norris.

Guess you learned nothing from this trial.
LMAO Another swing and a miss! You're on a roll!
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:09 PM   #362
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Cuts, scrapes and even more minor injuries don't heal on corpses.

If you want to compare cocks, then I'll tell you I have 20+ years worth of martial arts, including tournament fighting and all the other silly associated things like board/block breaking, under my belt.

You want to put a beat down on someone bare knuckled? Go ahead, but you'll be coming away with injured knuckles.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:10 PM   #363
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I read this earlier and wondered why he was taking MMA classes, instead of self defense. This sentence from your link put his trainer's comments into perspective.


So he wasn't a ring ready MMA badass, but he apparently had a history of aggression.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1392591.html

He was also arrested for assaulting a cop and a domestic violence incident when he was slapping his girlfriend around.

He also enjoyed a significant weight advantage....nearly 30lbs

Martin was 5'11" and 158lbs.
Zimmerman 5'8" and 185lbs.

Zimmerman was no cage fighter, but his history of aggression and losing control makes me wonder if he thought Martin was going to be an easy mark.

After all, he outweighed him by nearly 30 lbs and had spent a year taking MMA classes.....and was carrying a gun.

What could go wrong??
But if that was the case, wouldn't Martin's face be all smashed up?
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:49 PM   #364
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But if that was the case, wouldn't Martin's face be all smashed up?
You raise an interesting point.

Did Zimmerman fight back at all, or did he just shoot Martin?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:35 PM   #365
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You raise an interesting point.

Did Zimmerman fight back at all, or did he just shoot Martin?
I am thinking he didn't.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:43 PM   #366
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What is it you imagine I am saying that you think that video is at all relevant?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:45 PM   #367
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So everyone that carries revolvers, or glocks, or countless other firearms that don't have external safety levers are only out to kill? You're squealing now. Take a minute to learn about handguns.
Take a minute to learn about reading comprehension.

I didn't make the blanket statement you suggest here.

I pointed out that your observation re: the lack of a safety does nothing to bolster your insinuation that the inappropriateness of Zimmerman's actions is being "hyped" or exaggerated here.

You claim to regard Zimmerman as a "buffoon."

I wonder: do you really?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:59 PM   #368
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Take a minute to learn about reading comprehension.

I didn't make the blanket statement you suggest here.

I pointed out that your observation re: the lack of a safety does nothing to bolster your insinuation that the inappropriateness of Zimmerman's actions is being "hyped" or exaggerated here.

You claim to regard Zimmerman as a "buffoon."

I wonder: do you really?
Then why caps the words? You made a correlation between his mindset and the safety features on his weapon. A weapon that you know nothing about. Any safety on any weapon is there to prevent accidental discharge, not to add another step in conflict escalation.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:07 PM   #369
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LMAO You still are struggling mightily with the reading comprehension, idjit. All I am saying is that the claim made by several witnesses and Zimmerman that Martin was actually in the process of putting a serious beating on Zimmerman does not follow from the physical evidence. Clearly, Zimmerman and the witnesses are lying/mistaken about what was happening. Remember, they claimed the beat down was actually happening, not about to happen. I am NOT making any claim about Zimmerman's state of mind. I'm only talking about the obvious discordance between what Zimmerman and various witnesses are claiming (in an attempt to justify a self defense plea) and what the physical evidence shows.

Even someone with your greatly limited mental capacity should be able to comprehend the difference there. Though perhaps I have overestimated you.
I'm just pointing out that what you think is so important means nothing. The only thing that matters is Zimmermans state of mind. Leave it to you to focus on something that isn't a big issue. You can be in fear from your life and have 0 injuries. If someone is chasing you and you are in fear you can defend yourself. If someone is swinging at bat at you it doesn't matter if it hits you are not you can be in fear for you life. If someone mounts you and starts punching you in the face you don't have to wait until your injuries are life threatening to defend yourself. You can use force if you believe your life is in danger. I've seen people knocked out have less damage to face then Zimmerman had.

Whatever though Fed i am just trying to point out the case is over because the main 3 elements of murder 2 are not met.

What is your point again? That Zimmerman will gt convicted because his injuries are not bad enough. ok if that is your opinion its obvious you would be someone on the jury the judge would really have to explain things to before you go in to deliberate the charges. Your opinion that clearly the witnesses are lying because his face not bashed up enough is also a total joke. Do you even believe what you say?

Last edited by cutthemdown; 07-09-2013 at 08:13 PM..
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:13 PM   #370
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You raise an interesting point.

Did Zimmerman fight back at all, or did he just shoot Martin?
He had no chance to fight back. He was jumped and put down, then mounted. Pulling the gun was what he felt was needed to protect himself. The question is not what you would have done, or what he should have done. The question is did Zimmerman act with hatred in his hear, racism, an agenda to hurt and kill someone. Or was he really just seeing a suspicious person and trying to help the neighborhood? Those are the big questions.

Then obviously who was on top in the fight, and who threw the first punch is obviously central to the case. But how does the prosecution remove reasonable doubt on those issues when some eyewitnesses testified is was Martin on top getting the best of Zimmerman. Then also Zimmerman more injuries to face so it certainly is reasonable to assume he was losing the fight.

I've talked to every attorney in the office about it and they all say unless the jury disregards the instructions for murder 2 this case is over. Sometimes they do though OJ simpson got off right?
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:19 PM   #371
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I'm just pointing out that what you think is so important means nothing. The only thing that matters is Zimmermans state of mind. Leave it to you to focus on something that isn't a big issue. You can be in fear from your life and have 0 injuries. If someone is chasing you and you are in fear you can defend yourself. If someone is swinging at bat at you it doesn't matter if it hits you are not you can be in fear for you life. If someone mounts you and starts punching you in the face you don't have to wait until your injuries are life threatening to defend yourself. You can use force if you believe your life is in danger. I've seen people knocked out have less damage to face then Zimmerman had.

Whatever though Fed i am just trying to point out the case is over because the main 3 elements of murder 2 are not met.

What is your point again? That Zimmerman will gt convicted because his injuries are not bad enough. ok if that is your opinion its obvious you would be someone on the jury the judge would really have to explain things to before you go in to deliberate the charges. Your opinion that clearly the witnesses are lying because his face not bashed up enough is also a total joke. Do you even believe what you say?
I know right. Everyone is a liar except people who agree.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:39 PM   #372
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So Witness 9 testifed today that it was Zimmerman that scremed and that she knows his voice. Do you think the prosecution is just trying to throw the case? This along with the expert medical witness and I find it hard to believe Zimmerman gets even Man Slaughter. Murder 2 is out the window. Unless the jury disregards the law.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:52 PM   #373
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So Witness 9 testifed today that it was Zimmerman that scremed and that she knows his voice. Do you think the prosecution is just trying to throw the case? This along with the expert medical witness and I find it hard to believe Zimmerman gets even Man Slaughter. Murder 2 is out the window. Unless the jury disregards the law.
Not sure they can even give jury instructions for manslaughter at this point. I think its all or nothing for the prosecution but I don't know for sure.

I do know they haven't met the 3 elements for murder 2. The jury will be given very specific instructions on what they have to believe beyond a reasonable in order to convict a person of murder 2. Something i believe carries 20 yrs to life in prison in Fla. That is a no joke sentence people and IMO the jury won't see those 3 elements met.

I do think the prosecutor made a political decision to prosecute because of pressure. They always knew a conviction was unlikely considering the evidence in the case was weak. People with malice in heart, evil intent, ill will towards fellow man, do not generally call 911 before they do the murder. Just saying.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:00 PM   #374
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I know right. Everyone is a liar except people who agree.
Believe it or not the vast majority of attorneys will not put someone on the stand if they think or no they will lie. I know people think attorneys have no morals but you can be disbarred for that. You get caught prepping a witness to lie you won't practice law very long. Especially CA they can be pretty tough.

We scour witnesses because you want to know what the truth is. If you find out that the truth is damaging then you don't put that witness on the stand, try to hide them from the other side. All that is fair game. But you can't knowingly have a client or witness lie.

its the main reason defense attorneys often dont put client on the stand. Especially if they are guilty lol.

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Old 07-09-2013, 09:04 PM   #375
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I know right. Everyone is a liar except people who agree.
Also in my experience Americans take testifying pretty seriously. Even people who have trouble with the truth find themselves telling it in court. Its intimidating and the punishment for perjury is no joke. It gets spelled out for people and they ask why would i lie? better to just tell the truth.

No witnesses in this case are lying. Its just an example of how people can see the same fight but at different times, from different angles, and come up with stories that don't mesh 100% Why would any of the residents want to lie for no reason other then to help people, or hurt people they don't know? Witnesses will lie but its usually close friends, someone also maybe guilty of a crime, or family members and lovers. Bystanders and witnesses to crimes or events rarely lie in my experience.

Guess who lies the most of all? Cops hands down. Not even close.
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