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Old 07-05-2013, 06:29 PM   #251
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I think both moms are lying. Neither one of them knows for sure whose voice is screaming for help.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:37 PM   #252
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It sure looks busted in that photo.

Well since a nose is mostly made up of cartilage, it's not like it's an actual bone....he was smacked hard in the face to cause those wounds.


My personal bias would be to convict Zimmerman just because he's a neighborhood watch guy who was told by police not to intervene, but he intervened anyway and ended up shooting an unarmed teenager.

Again the 911 operator isn't a cop....you really don't have to do what they say. George Zimmerman was within his legal rights to follow and observe Trayvon.

Then, you hear there was some kind of fight, but don't know who was the aggressor. Then, you find out that Trayvon didn't have any injuries (other than the bullet hole) and Zimmerman did.

the forensic evidence supports Zimmerman's version of the events....

I'm not saying that's any kind of justification or absolution of guilt, but it does raise reasonable doubt. I don't know what they do in Florida as far as juries finding guilt on lesser charges, and I don't know what charge Zimmerman is being tried on (I don't usually pay much attention to these nationally sensationalized cases), but I wouldn't be surprised if he either gets off completely, or is found guilty of some lesser charge.

He's being charged with 2nd degree murder.....at best you can claim he is guilty of manslaughter (even that though is debatable)
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:40 PM   #253
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I think both moms are lying. Neither one of them knows for sure whose voice is screaming for help.
This is probably closer to the truth than anything else.....
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:58 PM   #254
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The uncle for Zimmerman was the most ridiculous.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:32 PM   #255
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They'll never be able to prove it, but those are Zimmerman's screams.

You can't be punching someone and yell for help with an unaltered voice. If you're throwing punches and screaming at the same time, the voice would be staccato -- wavy, stilted. Also, the voice was a bit blood curdling at one point -- the kind of pitch you get when someone thinks their life is in danger. Considering Trayvon didn't have a single injury on him beside the one that caused his death, I seriously doubt he thought he was in mortal danger as he sat atop Zimmerman and rained down blows. It also seems unlikely that the guy who sought the thug-life -- the guy who was there because he was suspended from school -- would be the one to get into a fight with a "creepy ass cracka" and be making shrill cries for help.

Also, while Zimmerman should not have went looking for Trayvon, that does not mean he can be charged for manslaughter or murder. The act of following someone is not illegal. Considering the time between Zimmerman losing track of Martin, and the time he actually went looking for him, Martin could have gone home. But he either hung around or went home and came back, because even though Zimmerman last saw him about two minutes prior to heading down the street, the two ended up tangoing near the front of the intersection. The idea that Zimmerman "caught up" to Martin after standing around for awhile is ludicrous.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:46 AM   #256
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[QUOTE=NUB;3874276]They'll never be able to prove it, but those are Zimmerman's screams.

You can't be punching someone and yell for help with an unaltered voice. If you're throwing punches and screaming at the same time, the voice would be staccato -- wavy, stilted. Also, the voice was a bit blood curdling at one point -- the kind of pitch you get when someone thinks their life is in danger. Considering Trayvon didn't have a single injury on him beside the one that caused his death, I seriously doubt he thought he was in mortal danger as he sat atop Zimmerman and rained down blows. It also seems unlikely that the guy who sought the thug-life -- the guy who was there because he was suspended from school -- would be the one to get into a fight with a "creepy ass cracka" and be making shrill cries for help.

Also, while Zimmerman should not have went looking for Trayvon, that does not mean he can be charged for manslaughter or murder. The act of following someone is not illegal. Considering the time between Zimmerman losing track of Martin, and the time he actually went looking for him, Martin could have gone home. But he either hung around or went home and came back, because even though Zimmerman last saw him about two minutes prior to heading down the street, the two ended up tangoing near the front of the intersection. The idea that Zimmerman "caught up" to Martin after standing around for awhile is ludicrous.[/QUOTE

The evidence doesn't support martin "raining down" blows. It wad martin
screamong for help
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:19 AM   #257
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So to summarize.

Zimmerman was losing a fight with a skinny 17 yo, so he shot him dead.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:35 AM   #258
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So to summarize.

Zimmerman was losing a fight with a skinny 17 yo, so he shot him dead.
Or the 17 year old was going for his gun. Who knows? Zimmerman's face was beat up and Martin's knuckles were scratched up. Somebody was screaming for help. Both mothers say it was their son doing the screaming. Reason would lead me to conclude that it's doubtful that the guy throwing the punches was also screaming for help.

The truth is, I don't know what happened. But I wouldn't convict anybody for murder based on what I've heard so far. More likely, aggravated assault.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:35 AM   #259
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So to summarize.

An armed Zimmerman was losing a fight he instigated with a skinny unarmed 17 yo, so he shot him dead.
Basically, but with a few key changes in bold.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:36 AM   #260
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Or the 17 year old was going for his gun. Who knows? Zimmerman's face was beat up and Martin's knuckles were scratched up. Somebody was screaming for help. Both mothers say it was their son doing the screaming. Reason would lead me to conclude that it's doubtful that the guy throwing the punches was also screaming for help.

The truth is, I don't know what happened. But I wouldn't convict anybody for murder based on what I've heard so far. More likely, aggravated assault.
To my knowledge, Zimmerman has not made it part of his claim that Martin went for the gun. Also, Zimmerman got his butt kicked because he was following Martin. It may not be illegal to follow someone, but put yourself in Martin's shoes: you've done nothing wrong, and some perfect stranger is following you around and harassing you about what you're doing. Would you not kick a little ass if need be? You can't instigate an altercation like Zimmerman did and then claim self-defense when the tables get turned on you. Sorry.

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Old 07-08-2013, 07:39 AM   #261
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To my knowledge, Zimmerman's has not made it part of his claim that Martin went for the gun.
I wonder why he didn't say that? You'd think, if was the aggressor and knew he was at fault, he would raise that defense to protect himself?
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:44 AM   #262
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I wonder why he didn't say that? You'd think, if was the aggressor and knew he was at fault, he would raise that defense to protect himself?
His argument is that his life was in danger from the ass-kicking. It's not clear even from Zimmerman's account that Martin even knew Zimmerman was armed. In my mind, it's probably better for Zimmerman for the jury to believe Martin did NOT know. Otherwise, it becomes slam-dunk that Martin was in self-defense mode (protecting himself from an armed man), not Zimmerman.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:14 AM   #263
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His argument is that his life was in danger from the ass-kicking. It's not clear even from Zimmerman's account that Martin even knew Zimmerman was armed. In my mind, it's probably better for Zimmerman for the jury to believe Martin did NOT know. Otherwise, it becomes slam-dunk that Martin was in self-defense mode (protecting himself from an armed man), not Zimmerman.
Unfortunately, this is one of those things where we'll probably never know the truth. Do we know that Zimmerman approached Martin? And was he confrontational and instigated a conflict, or did he identify himself as a member of the neighborhood watch and asked what Martin was doing in the area? Keep in mind, Martin didn't live there. He was visiting his father's gf. Or was Zimmerman just watching, did not approach Martin at all, and Martin instigated the conflict? Both guys have histories, so either angle is plausible. I think it's very instructive to go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
and read the sections Background of the shooting and Shooting and investigation.

Frankly, I think this prosecution is purely based on a combination of media hysteria and politics. The initial decision by police that the case was unprosecutable under Florida's self defense laws was the right one. The media drove this prosecution (probably abetted by some lawyers who smell a payday). The local DA, who is an elected official, was given no alternative. His prosecutorial discretion was coopted by the media, and now the media is driving the case. As the city manager said when he refused to accept the chief of police's resignation over the handling of this case, "I continue to stand by the work performed by the Sanford Police Department in this tragic shooting, which has been plagued by misrepresentations and false statements for interests other than justice."
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:15 AM   #264
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Or the 17 year old was going for his gun. Who knows? Zimmerman's face was beat up and Martin's knuckles were scratched up. Somebody was screaming for help. Both mothers say it was their son doing the screaming. Reason would lead me to conclude that it's doubtful that the guy throwing the punches was also screaming for help.

The truth is, I don't know what happened. But I wouldn't convict anybody for murder based on what I've heard so far. More likely, aggravated assault.
From what I saw of his injuries, one good headbutt could have caused that broken nose and the small contusions of the back of his head looked like he 'banged' his head on the pavement.

If his injuries were from a home invasion or similar, then I can understand shooting him in self defense.

But this appears to be nothing more than two kids fighting in the street, one decided he was losing so he shot the other.

Didn't I read that Zimmerman had Marshall arts training? Did Martin have any history of violence/fighting?
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:26 AM   #265
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Unfortunately, this is one of those things where we'll probably never know the truth. Do we know that Zimmerman approached Martin? And was he confrontational and instigated a conflict, or did he identify himself as a member of the neighborhood watch and asked what Martin was doing in the area? Keep in mind, Martin didn't live there. He was visiting his father's gf. Or was Zimmerman just watching, did not approach Martin at all, and Martin instigated the conflict? Both guys have histories, so either angle is plausible. I think it's very instructive to go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
and read the sections Background of the shooting and Shooting and investigation.

Frankly, I think this prosecution is purely based on a combination of media hysteria and politics. The initial decision by police that the case was unprosecutable under Florida's self defense laws was the right one. The media drove this prosecution (probably abetted by some lawyers who smell a payday). The local DA, who is an elected official, was given no alternative. His prosecutorial discretion was coopted by the media, and now the media is driving the case. As the city manager said when he refused to accept the chief of police's resignation over the handling of this case, "I continue to stand by the work performed by the Sanford Police Department in this tragic shooting, which has been plagued by misrepresentations and false statements for interests other than justice."
The 9/11 call establishes that Zimmerman approached Martin. Yes, it's not illegal to follow someone, but you don't have to do something illegal to instigate an altercation. If Martin felt threatened (a reasonable inference given that he was being followed by an armed stranger who was not a police officer or other figure of authority), then he had a right to defend himself.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:28 AM   #266
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The 9/11 call establishes that Zimmerman approached Martin. Yes, it's not illegal to follow someone, but you don't have to do something illegal to instigate an altercation. If Martin felt threatened (a reasonable inference given that he was being followed by an armed stranger who was not a police officer or other figure of authority), then he had a right to defend himself.
If that's what happened. It sounds like Zimmerman was trying to follow Martin, but lost him. Then, he terminated the call to police. After that, the altercation and shooting happened. As the properly elected coordinator of the neighborhood watch program, Zimmerman does have some kind of legitimacy here, although it's murky. Can he legally be considered a deputy? I don't know. The courts would have to decide. He does seem to have some legitimate cause to question Martin, or at least follow him until police arrive. He had previously done the same thing on other cases.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:46 AM   #267
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If that's what happened. It sounds like Zimmerman was trying to follow Martin, but lost him. Then, he terminated the call to police. After that, the altercation and shooting happened. As the properly elected coordinator of the neighborhood watch program, Zimmerman does have some kind of legitimacy here, although it's murky. Can he legally be considered a deputy? I don't know. The courts would have to decide. He does seem to have some legitimate cause to question Martin, or at least follow him until police arrive. He had previously done the same thing on other cases.
This isn't a typical "burden of proof" sort of situation. Since Zimmerman doesn't dispute that he shot and killed Martin (normally an illegal offense except in very special cases of self-defense), his version of events must be corroborated by the evidence to support his self-defense claim. That's why it's generally very hard to win a self-defense case. If you acknowledge you shot and killed someone, the evidence better back that up. The "murkiness" you alluded to therefore hurts Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, not help. I don't think a busted nose and a cut on the head meets that burden given what else we know about the altercation (victim was unarmed, 9/11 call where Zimmerman confirms his pursuit of victim, no evidence of wrong-doing by Martin beyond Zimmerman's claim).

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Old 07-08-2013, 10:03 AM   #268
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This isn't a typical "burden of proof" sort of situation. Since Zimmerman doesn't dispute that he shot and killed Martin (normally an illegal offense except in very special cases of self-defense), his version of events must be corroborated by the evidence to support his self-defense claim. That's why it's generally very hard to win a self-defense case. If you acknowledge you shot and killed someone, the evidence better back that up. The "murkiness" you alluded to therefore hurts Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, not help. I don't think a busted nose and a cut on the head meets that burden given what else we know about the altercation (victim was unarmed, 9/11 call where Zimmerman confirms his pursuit of victim, no evidence of wrong-doing by Martin beyond Zimmerman's claim).
You're probably right, but I doubt the jury will go with murder two. Maybe manslaughter or aggravated assault? If Zimmerman can raise the idea in the jury's minds that he was acting in his role of neighborhood watchdog, rather than just as an individual, I doubt they'll convict him of the greater charge.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:11 AM   #269
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I wonder why he didn't say that? You'd think, if was the aggressor and knew he was at fault, he would raise that defense to protect himself?
Maybe he tells the truth.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:12 AM   #270
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For murder 2 the prosecution has to prove evil intent, hatred and i don't think prosecution anywhere close to that.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:13 AM   #271
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This isn't a typical "burden of proof" sort of situation. Since Zimmerman doesn't dispute that he shot and killed Martin (normally an illegal offense except in very special cases of self-defense), his version of events must be corroborated by the evidence to support his self-defense claim. That's why it's generally very hard to win a self-defense case. If you acknowledge you shot and killed someone, the evidence better back that up. The "murkiness" you alluded to therefore hurts Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, not help. I don't think a busted nose and a cut on the head meets that burden given what else we know about the altercation (victim was unarmed, 9/11 call where Zimmerman confirms his pursuit of victim, no evidence of wrong-doing by Martin beyond Zimmerman's claim).
Obviously you have no idea what the jury instructions will be.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:16 AM   #272
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For murder 2 the prosecution has to prove evil intent, hatred and i don't think prosecution anywhere close to that.
Technically, they only need to have the jury believe those things, and I believe they're a lot closer to doing that than you think. Will they get a conviction? Who knows?

However, you're right. Peacepipe, BroncoInferno, errand, Garcia Bronco, NUB...none of the things you're talking about matter...or at least they are only very minor factors in the trial.

We know Martin is dead. We know Zimmerman killed him. It doesn't matter who started the fight. It doesn't matter who was a thug and who was a racist. This trial, the evidence, and the jury decision are all based on what Zimmerman's intent was. If the prosecution can convince the jury that Martin had ill intent to stop whatever crime he thought Martin was committing using whatever force necessary, he's going away for a long time.

For the millionth time, guys...it's not that hard to understand.

On a side note, I wonder if someone like errand were walking home after dark when he was a teenager, and someone started following him...if you thought in your own mind that you were being threatened by this person, clearly older and larger than you...would you feel justified confronting them and making a "preemptive strike"? Something tells me you would, but that you won't admit it now because it hurts your version of what you think happened.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:44 AM   #273
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On a side note, I wonder if someone like errand were walking home after dark when he was a teenager, and someone started following him...if you thought in your own mind that you were being threatened by this person, clearly older and larger than you...would you feel justified confronting them and making a "preemptive strike"? Something tells me you would, but that you won't admit it now because it hurts your version of what you think happened.
Exactly. I brought up this very thing in another thread. Errand, Garcia, et al probably won't admit it, but they know damn well that if some stranger were following them at night (legal or not) for no apparent reason, they would have felt entirely justified in going into self-defense mode. Good points on the earlier part of your post.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:01 PM   #274
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/08...tation-monday/

Detectives testify Trayvon Martins dad listened to 911 tape and said those screams are not my son. This case is most likely lost for the prosecution and they always knew they would lose it. They prosecuted it because of media and public pressure.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:07 PM   #275
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when i was a teenager if some adult was following me I would have ran. Sorry but i wasn't that thuggy and tough at 16-17 to go out at night and jump adults because the crazy ass cracker was following me.

Martin should have went and rushed straight home and called police. Tell the stupid girl i am calling police instead of deciding to fight. Tell your kids in similar situation to just run.
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