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Old 06-28-2013, 11:01 AM   #176
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Interesting stuff. I still haven't made a judgment call whether this guy should be considered a hero, or a traitor. I'm sure the conspiracy lovers among us will call this the first salvo in the smear campaign against Snowden. Then again, maybe he's just a shallow, little, self-centered dweeb? Always the danger with these cases. Keep holding up the lamp, looking for the truth.

I'm just glad the government has been made highly uncomfortable by these revelations. What they've been doing is a clear violation of the 4th amendment, IMHO.
Technically he cannot be a traitor. Treason can only be charged if the US is in a state of declared war against a declared enemy. I think you mean espionage. Small but important difference.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:08 AM   #177
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Technically he cannot be a traitor. Treason can only be charged if the US is in a state of declared war against a declared enemy. I think you mean espionage. Small but important difference.
I was talking about all the rhetoric being thrown around in the media and on Capitol Hill. It's the binary world. You're supposed to join one camp or the other. Or, if you don't join one, you're assigned to the other.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:11 AM   #178
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I was talking about all the rhetoric being thrown around in the media and on Capitol Hill. It's the binary world. You're supposed to join one cam or the other.
Which side has better hats?

(RIP George Carlin)
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:36 PM   #179
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The Gray Lady comes down hard against Obama and the NSA:

This view is wrong — and not only, or even mainly, because of the privacy issues raised by the American Civil Liberties Union and other critics. The two programs violate both the letter and the spirit of federal law. No statute explicitly authorizes mass surveillance. Through a series of legal contortions, the Obama administration has argued that Congress, since 9/11, intended to implicitly authorize mass surveillance. But this strategy mostly consists of wordplay, fear-mongering and a highly selective reading of the law. Americans deserve better from the White House — and from President Obama, who has seemingly forgotten the constitutional law he once taught.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/28/op...nted=all&_r=1&

(cont.)
We may never know all the details of the mass surveillance programs, but we know this: The administration has justified them through abuse of language, intentional evasion of statutory protections, secret, unreviewable investigative procedures and constitutional arguments that make a mockery of the government’s professed concern with protecting Americans’ privacy. It’s time to call the N.S.A.’s mass surveillance programs what they are: criminal.

Last edited by Rohirrim; 06-28-2013 at 03:58 PM..
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Old 06-29-2013, 04:14 PM   #180
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A grown man calling a name most commonly used by preteen girls.

Now I've seen everything.
so silly, maybe you need to stop acting like a preteen girl.

As far as the neg rep you left that p***Y you smelled must be you.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:55 AM   #181
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These guys are completely out of control:

The European Union has demanded that the United States explain a report in a German magazine that Washington is spying on the group, using unusually strong language to confront its closest trading partner over its alleged surveillance activities.

A spokeswoman for the European Commission said on Sunday the EU contacted U.S. authorities in Washington and Brussels about a report in Der Spiegel magazine that the U.S. secret service had tapped EU offices in Washington and Brussels and at the United Nations.

"We have immediately been in contact with the U.S. authorities in Washington D.C. and in Brussels and have confronted them with the press reports," the spokeswoman said.

"They have told us they are checking on the accuracy of the information released yesterday and will come back to us," she added in a statement.

Der Spiegel reported on its website on Saturday that the National Security Agency had bugged EU offices and gained access to EU internal computer networks in the latest revelation of alleged U.S. spying that has prompted outrage from EU politicians.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3525320.html
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:12 AM   #182
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I've been riding the fence on this issue & although I'm not a supporter of snowden, I agree with Roh. The NSA needs be put in its place. FISA needs to be made public,it's unconstitutional to have a "secret" court that has rubber stamped every warrant ever presented to it. Except for 1. Something like 2000 warrants were applied for & 2000 approved by this court.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:11 AM   #183
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Is there no credible oversight that can be 'installed' to monitor agency activities and court approved surveillance?

It's out of control and they won't voluntarily reign it in.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:10 PM   #184
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I've been riding the fence on this issue & although I'm not a supporter of snowden, I agree with Roh. The NSA needs be put in its place. FISA needs to be made public,it's unconstitutional to have a "secret" court that has rubber stamped every warrant ever presented to it. Except for 1. Something like 2000 warrants were applied for & 2000 approved by this court.
You do realize by going "public" you allow those group we're trying to protect ourselves from knowing we have an eye on them? There is reason that the things are compartmentalised.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:14 PM   #185
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You do realize by going "public" you allow those group we're trying to protect ourselves from knowing we have an eye on them? There is reason that the things are compartmentalised.
You do realize be keeping it "secret" you allow this court to operate unsupervised and without any system of checks and balances? There is a reason our government was set up with those in place. Secret courts are not my idea of a free society under the Constitution.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:17 PM   #186
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You do realize by going "public" you allow those group we're trying to protect ourselves from knowing we have an eye on them? There is reason that the things are compartmentalised.
You're telling me they didn't already know?
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:12 PM   #187
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You're telling me they didn't already know?
Yes I am. We aren't going against super villains.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:17 PM   #188
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Yes I am. We aren't going against super villains.
OBL wasn't using couriers cause he thought it was a faster way of communicating.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:21 PM   #189
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You do realize by going "public" you allow those group we're trying to protect ourselves from knowing we have an eye on them? There is reason that the things are compartmentalised.
Our government is committing serial and blatant violations of the Constitution.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:24 PM   #190
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Yes I am. We aren't going against super villains.
Good. Then we shouldn't violate our own Constitution in order to combat them. What greater victory could we give them than to destroy what we stand for out of fear?

BTW, why didn't this program stop the Boston Marathon bombers? Didn't the Russians tell us to watch this guy?
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:26 PM   #191
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OBL wasn't using couriers cause he thought it was a faster way of communicating.
And how that work out for him? War is fought on many fronts, and by getting into his decision cycle you win most of the time. Most of the general members of Al Queda and it affiliates are ill educated and don't understand the technology advantage the US has. What we can do is now out of the bag.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:31 PM   #192
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Good. Then we shouldn't violate our own Constitution in order to combat them. What greater victory could we give them than to destroy what we stand for out of fear?

BTW, why didn't this program stop the Boston Marathon bombers? Didn't the Russians tell us to watch this guy?
No program or technology is prefect. This program was designed to intercept non-US communications, analysis and identify external threats/support to those trying to do harm inside the US. In Boston it was "lone" wolf action and they didn't receive external logistic support or direction.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:31 PM   #193
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Bradley Manning nominated for Nobel Peace Prize...

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle35458.htm
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:32 PM   #194
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Our government is committing serial and blatant violations of the Constitution.
How do you know that? The problem with classified programs is no one that really knows the policy or procedures can openly talk about them, so all you get is the internet rumor mill and half truths.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:36 PM   #195
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Attacks from America: NSA Spied on European Union Offices

By Laura Poitras, Marcel Rosenbach, Fidelius Schmid and Holger Stark

June 30, 2013 "Information Clearing House - "Spiegel"
-- America's NSA intelligence service allegedly targeted the European Union with its spying activities. According to SPIEGEL information, the US placed bugs in the EU representation in Washington and infiltrated its computer network. Cyber attacks were also perpetrated against Brussels in New York and Washington.

Information obtained by SPIEGEL shows that America's National Security Agency (NSA) not only conducted online surveillance of European citizens, but also appears to have specifically targeted buildings housing European Union institutions. The information appears in secret documents obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden that SPIEGEL has in part seen. A "top secret" 2010 document describes how the secret service attacked the EU's diplomatic representation in Washington.

The document suggests that in addition to installing bugs in the building in downtown Washington, DC, the EU representation's computer network was also infiltrated. In this way, the Americans were able to access discussions in EU rooms as well as emails and internal documents on computers.

The attacks on EU institutions show yet another level in the broad scope of the NSA's spying activities. For weeks now, new details about Prism and other surveillance programs have been emerging that had been compiled by whistleblower Snowden. Details have also emerged that the British intelligence service GCHQ operates a similar program under the name Tempora with which global telephone and Internet connections are monitored.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #196
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How do you know that? The problem with classified programs is no one that really knows the policy or procedures can openly talk about them, so all you get is the internet rumor mill and half truths.
You have not been paying attention. Did you read Bamford's THE SHADOW FACTORY?

Check this out. MHG

Greenwald: NSA can obtain one billion cell phone calls a day, store them and listen

http://rt.com/usa/nsa-greenwald-call-store-427/
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #197
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How do you know that? The problem with classified programs is no one that really knows the policy or procedures can openly talk about them, so all you get is the internet rumor mill and half truths.
Let me borrow the statement of somebody who has been there at the highest levels:

"This in my view violates the constitution. The fourth amendment and the first amendment – and the fourth amendment language is crystal clear. It is not acceptable to have a secret interpretation of a law that goes far beyond any reasonable reading of either the law or the constitution and then classify as top secret what the actual law is. I quite understand the viewpoint that many have expressed that they are fine with it and they just want to be safe but that is not really the American way." Al Gore
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:42 PM   #198
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OK but Gore is a poor choice to cite, here. Gore = Mr. sleaze bag.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:45 PM   #199
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No program or technology is prefect. This program was designed to intercept non-US communications, analysis and identify external threats/support to those trying to do harm inside the US. In Boston it was "lone" wolf action and they didn't receive external logistic support or direction.
So. You're making the argument that we should violate our own Constitution to protect ourselves, but we can't expect it to protect us? How far down the paranoia rabbit hole do you want to go?
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:48 PM   #200
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OK but Gore is a poor choice to cite, here. Gore = Mr. sleaze bag.
I think there are only a very few "perfect" people in your eyes - You and Chomsky being two of them.
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