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Old 06-27-2013, 02:22 PM   #76
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It's not interesting its BS liberal crap. Oh do the same job but because you are a kid you make 5 bucks an hour. While some deadbeat adult who decided to be lazy now gets 15 bucks an hour for the same job. How can people even take crap like this seriously. It's so stupid and will never be considered so what is interesting about it?
I didn't say it was something we should do, only that it was interesting.

And it's not that far fetched, we already do it (see my post about tipped employees).
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:23 PM   #77
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You can't make it to where someone can live in So Calif, own a home, and a car, and work at Walmart. Sorry you have to try harder then that. Otherwise you live in an apt with 4 other people and scrape by.
Who said anything about a wage that would allow someone to own a home and a car?

Do you not understand the term "living wage"?
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:33 PM   #78
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No, I want business owners to stop subsidizing their businesses with public dollar while simultaneously b****ing about people using social programs. Guess what happens when you pay your employees a living wage? Less tax is needed for social programs.

Also, don't lecture me about supply and demand. You've already proven you don't have a clue about it -- when you talk about your "constant profit". Unless you have a business with 100% inelastic demand you are full of **** about changing your prices and maintaining the same profit margin.
I didn’t say my income doesn't go up and down, I said my profit margin stays the same, do you know what a profit margin is?

I will ask you one simple question do you know what a fuel surcharge is and how it works?
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:19 PM   #79
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I didn’t say my income doesn't go up and down, I said my profit margin stays the same, do you know what a profit margin is?
Your profit margin will not stay constant if you increase price unless you have a product/service with 100% inelastic demand.

profit margin = (revenue - cost)/revenue

Lets do the math, shall we?

Scenario A (original setup):

Cost: (employee salaries, equipment, etc.): $10,000
Sales price of item: $100
Number of items sold: 1000
Revenue: $100,000

Net profit: $100,000 - $10,000 = $90,000
Profit margin: (net profit)/revenue = 90%

Scenario B (increase in employee costs that you don't try to pass along)

Cost: (employee salaries, equipment, etc.): $20,000
Sales price of item: $100
Number of items sold: 1000
Revenue: $100,000

Net profit: $100,000 - $20,000 = $80,000
Profit margin: $80000/$100000 = 80%

Scenario C (increase in employee costs that you do pass on by raising prices to maintain profit margin)

Cost: (employee salaries, equipment, etc.): $20,000
Revenue required to maintain a 90% profit margin: $200,000 (remember your algebra?)
Sales price of item to maintain profit margin: $200 (double the price!)
Number of items sold: 1000
Revenue: $200,000

Net profit: $200,000 - $20,000 = $180,000
Profit margin: $180000/$200000 = 90%

Look, you have the same profit margin. You're so right! I bow to you!

OH WAIT: Scenario C assumes the raise in price didn't affect the number of units sold even with increases in prices!

Of course, my example uses big numbers, but the principal is the same no matter the actual numbers involved. You CANNOT maintain a constant profit margin increasing prices to offset costs unless that you have 100% inelastic demand. Especially since maintaining net profit margin doesn't mean simply directly offsetting the extra costs, but maintaining that ratio (hence the necessity to add $100,000 to maintain a 90% margin with only a $10,000 increase in cost) You can mitigate profit margin reduction, but you can't maintain. Full Stop.


Pretty sad I have to explain this to a "highly successful business owner". This is econ 101 bub.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:01 PM   #80
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People who don't understand business should not own businesses. You're just selling yourselves (and thus your employees and community) short.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:23 PM   #81
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People who don't understand business should not own businesses. You're just selling yourselves (and thus your employees and community) short.
If the owners do 100% of the work, and don't hire employees, are they selling themselves and the community short?
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:49 PM   #82
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If the owners do 100% of the work, and don't hire employees, are they selling themselves and the community short?
Yes, because without understanding even basic business concepts, you're potentially losing out on profits. Profits help both the business owner an the community.
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:49 PM   #83
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You can't make it to where someone can live in So Calif, own a home, and a car, and work at Walmart. Sorry you have to try harder then that. Otherwise you live in an apt with 4 other people and scrape by.
That's because you can't legislate prosperity. We are the grandchildren of the failed social experiments over the last 80 years. Current times are a picnic compared to what our grandchildren will face with $125 trillion in unfunded liabilities.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:19 PM   #84
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Pretty sad I have to explain this to a "highly successful business owner". This is econ 101 bub.
You do realize there are those that teach econ 101 and there are those that do it in the real word. For 30 years I’ve known exactly what my “cost of sale “on any and all products and services I offer to my customers. I also know exactly what percent of profit I need to keep my business running at an optimum level and year after year I prosper when others in my field fall by the wayside.

FYI there is members of the Mane that have used my business so your claim of BS is completely false. Raise the minimum wage or my taxes and I will still be in business and continue to pass the increase on to the consumer.

I guarantee Houghtam’s boss knows exactly what the “cost of sale” on a box of popcorn is and what profit margin he needs to maintain to cover Houghtam’s minimum wage.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:27 PM   #85
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You do realize there are those that teach econ 101 and there are those that do it in the real word. For 30 years I’ve known exactly what my “cost of sale “on any and all products and services I offer to my customers. I also know exactly what percent of profit I need to keep my business running at an optimum level and year after year I prosper when others in my field fall by the wayside.

FYI there is members of the Mane that have used my business so your claim of BS is completely false. Raise the minimum wage or my taxes and I will still be in business and continue to pass the increase on to the consumer.

I guarantee Houghtam’s boss knows exactly what the “cost of sale” on a box of popcorn is and what profit margin he needs to maintain to cover Houghtam’s minimum wage.
But that can't be. You should keep your price the same and just make less. It's insane to pass the cost onto the consumer. /end sarcasm font.

Btw the cost on popcorn is about 20 cents a bag from my supplier anyhow and includes only popcorn flavacol and coconut oil and not the packaging for sale.

Last edited by chadta; 06-27-2013 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:53 PM   #86
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For some reason it's okay to increase the CEO's pay by 430%, but to give some poor schmuck an extra couple of grand per year means the downfall of Western civilization. The difference being, the CEO isn't going to spend a penny of that money and the schmuck will have to spend every penny just to survive.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:03 PM   #87
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You do realize there are those that teach econ 101 and there are those that do it in the real word. For 30 years I’ve known exactly what my “cost of sale “on any and all products and services I offer to my customers. I also know exactly what percent of profit I need to keep my business running at an optimum level and year after year I prosper when others in my field fall by the wayside.

FYI there is members of the Mane that have used my business so your claim of BS is completely false. Raise the minimum wage or my taxes and I will still be in business and continue to pass the increase on to the consumer.

I guarantee Houghtam’s boss knows exactly what the “cost of sale” on a box of popcorn is and what profit margin he needs to maintain to cover Houghtam’s minimum wage.
Even with a clear explanation, you just double down on your idiocy. % of profit (what you're calling it now) is NOT the same thing as profit margin. I won't even to try to explain why. I won't even fathom to guess what's going on in your head when you try to use terms you clearly have no grasp on.

Like I said, don't try to lecture me about sh*t you clearly don't understand. \

And don't make up bullsh*t lies like being able to maintain a constant profit margin over 30 years while dealing with changing costs and economic changes.

Here's Apple's -- a company making money hand over fist -- profit margins over the last 5 years.

http://ycharts.com/companies/AAPL/profit_margin

Of course, as we've already established you don't even understand the term, so perhaps you aren't actually lying.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:04 PM   #88
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But that can't be. You should keep your price the same and just make less. It's insane to pass the cost onto the consumer. /end sarcasm font.
Nice straw man. Try again.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:02 PM   #89
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There is a very simple rule that I follow. I maintain a constant profit margin and if there is a raise in the minimum wage or any other increase in the cost of good or services, I pass them directly to my customers.
I don't know what kind of business you run or how you run it. So I also don't know what type of customers you have so I don't know how an increase in the minimum wage would potentially impact demand for your product. But is it possible such an increase would increase the demand for your product? If not directly then indirectly? Most increases at the low end of the wage scale are spent, so that means there is more spending, more consumption, and more demand in the market in general. If demand for your product goes up then you sell more of your product and you therefore potentially make more money. Even though the profit per unit of product you sell may go down because of the increase in wages, you could possibly still make as much or more money. So, in this scenario you wouldn't necessarily have to increase the price of your product. That is some of the theory behind such a wage increase. Our economy currently has a demand problem because people don't make enough money. The lower you go down the wage scale, the higher the percentage of every extra dollar earned that will be spent. Thus, such a wage increase has a high potential to be stimulative. It won't work for everyone and everything, and thus not for everybody. But if you have the right product and run your business the right way it could potentially work for you. In other words, the equation isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:09 PM   #90
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Here's Apple's -- a company making money hand over fist -- profit margins over the last 5 years.

http://ycharts.com/companies/AAPL/profit_margin

Of course, as we've already established you don't even understand the term, so perhaps you aren't actually lying.
JFC …….. We are not talking about Apple here, we are talking about raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour and how a small to medium size business will handle the increase.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:18 PM   #91
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JFC …….. We are not talking about Apple here, we are talking about raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour and how a small to medium size business will handle the increase.
No, we're talking about the bull**** lie of being able to maintain a constant profit margin for 30 years. And your incredible ignorance of these basic economics concepts.

As far as Apple.... Apple can't even maintain a constant profit margin over just 5 years even though it has far more flexibility and a whole lto better accountants than a small business.



You tried some bull**** condescension about basic economics, and got caught with your pants down and your shoelaces tied together.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:43 PM   #92
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That's a pretty good blueprint to bankrupt small businesses.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:48 PM   #93
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It won't work for everyone and everything, and thus not for everybody. But if you have the right product and run your business the right way it could potentially work for you.
It's not for everybody, but Walmart will prosper. I'm sure they will gladly pay higher minimum wages because it will help the trend of snuffing out the smaller businesses struggling to compete with Walmart. The largest company in the world is always there to fill in the void whenever grocery stores, hardware stores, nurseries, pharmacies, electronic stores, and others go out of business.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:49 PM   #94
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Yes, because without understanding even basic business concepts, you're potentially losing out on profits. Profits help both the business owner an the community.
And what do we do with those employees you think should be hired from December to May, when even we struggle to find something to do? Pay them to sit on their asses?
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:16 PM   #95
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No, we're talking about the bull**** lie of being able to maintain a constant profit margin for 30 years. And your incredible ignorance of these basic economics concepts.

You tried some bull**** condescension about basic economics, and got caught with your pants down and your shoelaces tied together.
Right, I have a 30 year successful track record in business and you don’t. Feel free to PM Doc B. he uses my business quite often. Here are a couple of posts from past threads, now do you want to call a very highly successful young surgeon a liar also.

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Lol. Two dudes with worthless degrees flailing at Pony, who is possibly the most successful person I know in real life.
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Lol. The opposite of fail. For instance, multiple self-started small businesses that did well enough that he doesn't have to work. And is happily married to the same woman for the past 35ish years. Plays golf whenever he likes and hangs out on the lake when not playing golf. Pretty successful.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:13 AM   #96
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Right, I have a 30 year successful track record in business and you don’t. Feel free to PM Doc B. he uses my business quite often. Here are a couple of posts from past threads, now do you want to call a very highly successful young surgeon a liar also.
Well!

/end thread right there!

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Old 06-28-2013, 03:54 AM   #97
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For some reason it's okay to increase the CEO's pay by 430%,
I dont recall ever saying that

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If demand for your product goes up then you sell more of your product and you therefore potentially make more money. Even though the profit per unit of product you sell may go down because of the increase in wages, you could possibly still make as much or more money.
So do things the Walmart way ? sell many things for very little money and make alot of money, well which is it ? is Walmart the most evil company ever or are they a model that we should be following ?

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Nice straw man. Try again.
Not at all, why do you think containers of everything have been getting smaller and smaller, costs have gone up, rather than raising prices they have been shrinking product sizes.

Go to the supermarket and take a look at anything from cleaners, to soda pop, to potato chips, to dog food, I bet the container is smaller than it was 2 years ago. Chips went from 200g to 180, to 170, to 160, and now they have a new super size bag, at triple the price that's 200g. Mr Clean went from a 1 L bottle, to an 843ml bottle to a 750 ml bottle. Orange juice is doing the same thing.

Its only in some liberal utopia dream land that you can increase costs of raw materials without showing an increase cost in the final product. In the real world that doesn't work.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:05 AM   #98
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So do things the Walmart way ? sell many things for very little money and make alot of money, well which is it ? is Walmart the most evil company ever or are they a model that we should be following ?
Well that's an extreme example. Again, the concept here is rather simple. Our economy has a massive demand problem. The only way to increase demand is to put more money in people's pockets. The lower down the food chain, the more effective the stimulus effect. Higher wages does not have to lead directly to an equally large increase in prices if spending and demand increase. I know this is hard for you to understand but it's basic economics.

I'm not saying this is "the answer", and I'm not saying $15/hr is "the number". I'm only suggesting that this theory has some merit to it that is worthy of discussion. And you can certainly argue that this is favorable to handouts and tax cuts. This will work for efficient industries and efficient businesses. Those that aren't efficient may struggle and even fail. Darwin would be nodding his head.

Ever heard the expression "a rising tide lifts all boats"? Look it up.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:20 AM   #99
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Well that's an extreme example. Again, the concept here is rather simple. Our economy has a massive demand problem. The only way to increase demand is to put more money in people's pockets. The lower down the food chain, the more effective the stimulus effect. Higher wages does not have to lead directly to an equally large increase in prices if spending and demand increase. I know this is hard for you to understand but it's basic economics.

I'm not saying this is "the answer", and I'm not saying $15/hr is "the number". I'm only suggesting that this theory has some merit to it that is worthy of discussion. And you can certainly argue that this is favorable to handouts and tax cuts. This will work for efficient industries and efficient businesses. Those that aren't efficient may struggle and even fail. Darwin would be nodding his head.

Ever heard the expression "a rising tide lifts all boats"? Look it up.
It's really a production problem, not a demand problem.

The real problem with $15/hr grocery checkers is, especially by the time you add in all the state and federal (including now Obamacare) mandates, most employees become priced out of the market.

In the real world, most people would be willing to check their own groceries and save rather than have a $20+/hour cost tacked onto their shopping. Or alternatively, it hands even further advantage to kings of low labor automation like Amazon.

So the low-skilled workers get sent home. And now instead of the state worrying about how to help a $9/hour employee get by, they've got an unemployed worker with no marketable skills to figure out what to do with.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:26 AM   #100
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Who knows what fast food would be become at a 15 dollar an hour wage. I think that would force them into being automated. Seriously you walk up and push buttons for your order, swipe your card, and machines cook your burger and fries. Grocery stores would be all self check out. Why? Because you can pay a checkout machine repair man 15 bucks an hour, but probably not just some young kid who stocks the shelves.

But my friend is union grocery store worker pretty sure he makes like 20 something an hour. But he is 43 and has been there since he was 17. You can't just pay some snot nosed newcomer 15 bucks an hour.
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