The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Jibba Jabba > War, Religion and Politics Thread
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-25-2013, 07:29 AM   #26
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Hooray! Anecdotal evidence dictating broad policy! Everyone wins!


Bam
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 07:29 AM   #27
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
No. It really doesn't depend. Somewhere between conception and preschool the "medical procedure" becomes murder. Where that line is drawn is more than an argument.
Yes, it really does.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...&postcount=499
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 07:32 AM   #28
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
So what you're saying is since Casey Anthony wasn't supported with enough federal programs, the government was needlessly meddling with her right to choose.

Free Kermie?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 07:51 AM   #29
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
So what you're saying is since Casey Anthony wasn't supported with enough federal programs, the government was needlessly meddling with her right to choose.

Free Kermie?
Nice reduction. I only hope you're trying to be cute, and this really isn't what you took away from that discussion.

No. You can play all the logic games and attempt to define and redefine life and viability all you want. What I'm saying is that if you correct the problems which cause most people who have abortions to get them, then you can start talking about banning abortion all together. Unless and until that happens, you're just paying lip service to a problem and not solving it.

If you solve the majority problem, you take away the need for people to cry foul about their "reproductive rights". Sure, there will always be people who keep pounding that drum (like, peacepipe), just as there will always be people who refuse to make exceptions for some abortions because "it's a LIFE, by gum!" (like Tombstone). But I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of liberals - 80%+ - would be willing to ban abortion in most instances if we were actually making any real attempts to address very simple problems, like "who is watching my kid while I work/look for a job", as well as "you are not 'above' any job, your kids need you, you're not holding out for a management position, you're working at Target." In fact, in my own circle, where most of the people I associate with are more liberal than I am, I haven't found a single person who wouldn't support a ban on most abortions under those circumstances.

I mean, let's use your own argument about gun laws...since when has banning abortion actually reduced the number of abortions? This is why people favor comprehensive gun control, and not just banning ****. This is also why it doesn't matter how you define or redefine all those words that have to do with a woman's body. If you don't solve the reasons why she might, it still remains an option for her, regardless of the legality.

But no, you're not interested in solving anything, just like the Republicans. You want to bluster away, condemn, and stand up on your soap box and dictate policy for people whose lifestyle you could never hope to understand. You're not interested in reality. You're interested in ideology. Reducing abortions is boring, but firebranding? Now that's fun!!
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 08:26 AM   #30
B-Large
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

I don't think conservatives should ever give up their pursuit to one day find all abortion a things of the past- I find their effort noble and moral...

that being said, in a effort to make the above statement true, they should be MILITANT about sex education, contraception, and making adoption so easy its a no brainer... instead, in irony, they still espouse shame and fear around the issue of sex... think about all the girls of conservative parents who got pregnant, are terrified and seek an abortion because of the closed mindedness of their parents... how in this day and age when kids are having sex at 11 can someone still think preaching abstinence still works? Don't get me wrong, I think absitenace should be the goal, but god forbid not the only thing we arm out kids with...

That is what makes the GOP modern day social issue knuckledraggers...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 08:43 AM   #31
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Large View Post
I don't think conservatives should ever give up their pursuit to one day find all abortion a things of the past- I find their effort noble and moral...

that being said, in a effort to make the above statement true, they should be MILITANT about sex education, contraception, and making adoption so easy its a no brainer... instead, in irony, they still espouse shame and fear around the issue of sex... think about all the girls of conservative parents who got pregnant, are terrified and seek an abortion because of the closed mindedness of their parents... how in this day and age when kids are having sex at 11 can someone still think preaching abstinence still works? Don't get me wrong, I think absitenace should be the goal, but god forbid not the only thing we arm out kids with...

That is what makes the GOP modern day social issue knuckledraggers...
I don't think ANYONE should give up the goal of wanting to make abortions (except of course in certain rare cases) a thing of the past.

But yes, you're right. Conservatives routinely cite inner-city pregnancy statistics without examining right in their own backyard. Like I said in the other thread, to think this isn't just as bad in rural ("Christian!") America is ignorant.

It's also ignorant to think parents can do a better job of educating your children about sex than a medical professional. Guess what? They can't. Or maybe I should rephrase that...even if they "can", they too often "don't". It's a failure of responsibility in the social contract, and it's gone on for far too long. "Sorry parents, you've proven that you, as a whole, cannot or will not teach your kids responsibly about sex...now we're going to do it for you whether you like it or not."

Now watch as the outrage roils up..."how dare you suggest taking away my rights to teach my kids about how the pee pee goes into the thingy!" As if sex were some sacred act that some disembodied voyeur watched and judged you on at every turn, instead of a natural biological process that our animal instincts urge us to do in order to continue the species.

"WHAT?! YOU THINK WE'RE ANIMALS NOW, YOU LIBERAL PINKO??"



See why it's so hard to reduce the number of abortions? It's easier just to say "ban it" and be done. What really confuses me though, is when people like Beavis (or the Texan lawmakers) go out of their way to make all these legal arguments about when and where and why and how life begins...it seems to me it would be a hell of a lot easier to just talk about the actual problem.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 08:52 AM   #32
Fedaykin
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,940

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/abo...teens-partial/



You remember MSNBC Champion of Choice, Dr George Tiller, don't you?
Quote:
The first was Phill Kline, a conservative radio host and fierce abortion opponent who was elected attorney general of Kansas in 2002 and promptly opened an investigation into Dr. Tiller.

In 2004, Mr. Kline subpoenaed case files of 60 women and girls who had late-term abortions performed at Dr. Tiller’s clinic. (He also sought 30 files from Planned Parenthood in Overland Park.) Mr. Kline said his inquiry centered on potential violations of the late-term abortion law and a second law requiring physicians to report evidence of sexual abuse against minors.


...

Mr. Kline’s investigators tried to identify patients anyway, court records show. Mr. Kline also hired medical experts recommended by anti-abortion groups and gave them access to the files without requiring them to pledge confidentiality.

One expert, Paul McHugh, a professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins, then discussed the files — though not identities — in a videotaped interview arranged by anti-abortion activists that quickly made its way to Mr. O’Reilly and others in the news media.

Calling Mr. Kline’s conduct “inexcusable,” the Kansas Supreme Court reprimanded him in an opinion that questioned his ethics and honesty. “Essentially, to Kline, the ends justify the means,” the justices said.

...

According to Dr. McHugh, the files he saw contained diagnoses like adjustment disorder, anxiety and depression that to his eyes were not “substantial and irreversible.” He also claimed that some women offered “trivial” reasons for wanting an abortion, like a desire to play sports. “I can only tell you,” he said in his taped interview, “that from these records, anybody could have gotten an abortion if they wanted one.”

Yet Dr. McHugh’s description of the files left out crucial bits of context. He failed to mention, for example, that one patient was a 10-year-old girl, 28 weeks pregnant, who had been raped by an adult relative.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/us...nted=all&_r=1&
Tiller was pretty much constantly under scrutiny. Several times his case was brought to grand jury (because KS allows grand jurys to be held ad the request of the general public.

None of those Grand Jury's chose to indict Tiller. In the oh so liberal KS.
Fedaykin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 08:52 AM   #33
B-Large
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
I don't think ANYONE should give up the goal of wanting to make abortions (except of course in certain rare cases) a thing of the past.

But yes, you're right. Conservatives routinely cite inner-city pregnancy statistics without examining right in their own backyard. Like I said in the other thread, to think this isn't just as bad in rural ("Christian!") America is ignorant.

It's also ignorant to think parents can do a better job of educating your children about sex than a medical professional. Guess what? They can't. Or maybe I should rephrase that...even if they "can", they too often "don't". It's a failure of responsibility in the social contract, and it's gone on for far too long. "Sorry parents, you've proven that you, as a whole, cannot or will not teach your kids responsibly about sex...now we're going to do it for you whether you like it or not."

Now watch as the outrage roils up..."how dare you suggest taking away my rights to teach my kids about how the pee pee goes into the thingy!" As if sex were some sacred act that some disembodied voyeur watched and judged you on at every turn, instead of a natural biological process that our animal instincts urge us to do in order to continue the species.

"WHAT?! YOU THINK WE'RE ANIMALS NOW, YOU LIBERAL PINKO??"



See why it's so hard to reduce the number of abortions? It's easier just to say "ban it" and be done. What really confuses me though, is when people like Beavis (or the Texan lawmakers) go out of their way to make all these legal arguments about when and where and why and how life begins...it seems to me it would be a hell of a lot easier to just talk about the actual problem.
Its very hardline- so really not inconsistent with how that party views other issues.... its oneof the underlying reasons they lose elections, moderates are tired of it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 09:05 AM   #34
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
I don't think ANYONE should give up the goal of wanting to make abortions (except of course in certain rare cases) a thing of the past.

But yes, you're right. Conservatives routinely cite inner-city pregnancy statistics without examining right in their own backyard. Like I said in the other thread, to think this isn't just as bad in rural ("Christian!") America is ignorant.

It's also ignorant to think parents can do a better job of educating your children about sex than a medical professional. Guess what? They can't. Or maybe I should rephrase that...even if they "can", they too often "don't". It's a failure of responsibility in the social contract, and it's gone on for far too long. "Sorry parents, you've proven that you, as a whole, cannot or will not teach your kids responsibly about sex...now we're going to do it for you whether you like it or not."
Wrong answer. Blue-tinted mandatory-sex-ed states tend to have the highest abortion rates. Yokelsberg Red states have similar or even higher pregnancy rates, but fewer abortions. It's a straight morality play. Legitimization encourages. There's no argument.

Quote:
Now watch as the outrage roils up..."how dare you suggest taking away my rights to teach my kids about how the pee pee goes into the thingy!" As if sex were some sacred act that some disembodied voyeur watched and judged you on at every turn, instead of a natural biological process that our animal instincts urge us to do in order to continue the species.

"WHAT?! YOU THINK WE'RE ANIMALS NOW, YOU LIBERAL PINKO??"



See why it's so hard to reduce the number of abortions? It's easier just to say "ban it" and be done. What really confuses me though, is when people like Beavis (or the Texan lawmakers) go out of their way to make all these legal arguments about when and where and why and how life begins...it seems to me it would be a hell of a lot easier to just talk about the actual problem.
Selfishness isn't the only part of the problem, but it's inarguably the largest part. Murdering another for the sake of your own lifestyle and comfort is wrong. Hiding the assault behind the uterine wall does not make it better. Having teachers tell students there's nothing wrong with that during 'sex education' makes it even worse.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 09:20 AM   #35
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
Wrong answer. Blue-tinted mandatory-sex-ed states tend to have the highest abortion rates. Yokelsberg Red states have similar or even higher pregnancy rates, but fewer abortions. It's a straight morality play. Legitimization encourages. There's no argument.

My statement about rural vs. urban was in regard to his statement about sex education vs. unwanted pregnancy. I also specifically said unwanted pregnancy in the post I linked from April.

And yes, they have the highest legal abortion rates. What data do you have on the actual abortion rates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
Selfishness isn't the only part of the problem, but it's inarguably the largest part. Murdering another for the sake of your own lifestyle and comfort is wrong. Hiding the assault behind the uterine wall does not make it better. Having teachers tell students there's nothing wrong with that during 'sex education' makes it even worse.
Keep demagoguing. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can talk about wrong, immoral, selfish all you want. Do it til you're blue in the face.

The fact remains that as as long as you and yours continue to do that, you will do absolutely NOTHING to actually reduce the number of abortions.

All blame, no substance.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 09:35 AM   #36
Fedaykin
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,940

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
Wrong answer. Blue-tinted mandatory-sex-ed states tend to have the highest abortion rates. Yokelsberg Red states have similar or even higher pregnancy rates, but fewer abortions. It's a straight morality play. Legitimization encourages. There's no argument.
Actually, making any valid statement about abortion rates at the federal level is more or less impossible, for at least several reasons:

* There is not national reporting requirement of abortion data
* Most states and localities have no reporting requirement, except when child abuse is involved
* There is a vast difference in reporting rate between different demographics.
Fedaykin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 09:42 AM   #37
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
And yes, they have the highest legal abortion rates. What data do you have on the actual abortion rates?
That 'illegal' abortion constitutes a statistically significant share in Roe V Wade America is a bold (and unsupportable) claim.

Besides, good ol' Kermit's 'abortions' would've been 'legal' under your high-minded statistical standards right up until they weren't. This old "only Blue Stateseses does it right" canard had it's day. It passed.

Quote:
Keep demagoguing. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can talk about wrong, immoral, selfish all you want. Do it til you're blue in the face.

The fact remains that as as long as you and yours continue to do that, you will do absolutely NOTHING to actually reduce the number of abortions.

All blame, no substance.
You know things are effed up when "Murder is Wrong" is taken as a statement of blame.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 09:50 AM   #38
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
Actually, making any valid statement about abortion rates at the federal level is more or less impossible, for at least several reasons:

* There is not national reporting requirement of abortion data
* Most states and localities have no reporting requirement, except when child abuse is involved
* There is a vast difference in reporting rate between different demographics.
"It's hard to study, therefore do what we say"

Federally approved stats or no... there is still plenty of data. And virtually none of it says sex ed or progressive politics reduces abortion...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/op...-illusion.html

Quote:
But many other socially conservative regions (particularly in the South) feature higher rates of unwed and teenage parenthood than in the country as a whole.

Liberals love to cite these numbers as proof that social conservatism is a flop. But the liberal narrative has glaring problems as well. To begin with, a lack of contraceptive access simply doesn’t seem to be a significant factor in unplanned pregnancy in the United States. When the Alan Guttmacher Institute surveyed more than 10,000 women who had procured abortions in 2000 and 2001, it found that only 12 percent cited problems obtaining birth control as a reason for their pregnancies. A recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study of teenage mothers found similar results: Only 13 percent of the teens reported having had trouble getting contraception.

At the same time, if liberal social policies really led inexorably to fewer unplanned pregnancies and thus fewer abortions, you would expect “blue” regions of the country to have lower teen pregnancy rates and fewer abortions per capita than demographically similar “red” regions.

But that isn’t what the data show. Instead, abortion rates are frequently higher in more liberal states, where access is often largely unrestricted, than in more conservative states, which are more likely to have parental consent laws, waiting periods, and so on. “Safe, legal and rare” is a nice slogan, but liberal policies don’t always seem to deliver the “rare” part.

What’s more, another Guttmacher Institute study suggests that liberal states don’t necessarily do better than conservative ones at preventing teenagers from getting pregnant in the first place. Instead, the lower teenage birth rates in many blue states are mostly just a consequence of (again) their higher abortion rates. Liberal California, for instance, has a higher teen pregnancy rate than socially conservative Alabama; the Californian teenage birth rate is only lower because the Californian abortion rate is more than twice as high.
Enter Hough to tell us that Alabama's abortion rate would suddenly double if we counted wire coat hangers.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 10:04 AM   #39
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Let's see here...

- Lack of contraceptive access is not a significant factor
- Poor sex education is not a significant factor
- The ability to provide for a family is not a significant factor
- Access to child care is not a significant factor
- Level of education is not a significant factor

I wonder why I listed all of those things in one post...

Do you understand the word "comprehensive"? How about "complex"?
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 10:12 AM   #40
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Let's see here...

- Lack of contraceptive access is not a significant factor
- Poor sex education is not a significant factor
- The ability to provide for a family is not a significant factor
- Access to child care is not a significant factor
- Level of education is not a significant factor

I wonder why I listed all of those things in one post...

Do you understand the word "comprehensive"? How about "complex"?
Sometimes 'comprehensive' turns out to mean "just try **** until something works"

The fact of the matter is most kids know how to prevent pregnancy. And have the means to do so. They're just very very very short-sighted and hormone driven. So they don't.

Assuming no teen-years detainment or forced contraception, there will always be tons of unwanted pregnancies to deal with. Always has been. 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are just about the most monstrous way to "deal with them" that could ever be devised. The law should reflect that. Yet you specifically make threads calling that out. While calling other demogogues.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 10:40 AM   #41
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
Sometimes 'comprehensive' turns out to mean "just try **** until something works"

The fact of the matter is most kids know how to prevent pregnancy. And have the means to do so. They're just very very very short-sighted and hormone driven. So they don't.

Assuming no teen-years detainment or forced contraception, there will always be tons of unwanted pregnancies to deal with. Always has been. 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are just about the most monstrous way to "deal with them" that could ever be devised. The law should reflect that. Yet you specifically make threads calling that out. While calling other demogogues.
As you just lamented in another thread, you're not interested in discussion of facts and will never change your mind, so what's the point?

And your post still doesn't address the other myriad of issues discussed in that thread, such as stigmatism, social safety net, and the like.

Your wanting to ban abortions at a certain point without addressing anything else is essentially the equivalent of only banning "assault rifles" (also loosely defined, much like "viability").

Oh and by the way, the Supreme Court will inevitably strike it down like they've done so many others in the same style, too. So congratulations on wasting more of those taxes you guys so love to hate.

houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 11:05 AM   #42
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
As you just lamented in another thread, you're not interested in discussion of facts and will never change your mind, so what's the point?
That's not really a fair characterization. 20 weeks or anything near it is a huge compromise position for many who'd like much sooner. Meanwhile, they're greeted with a retort of "Nope, keep aborting 'em until their college is prepaid." The breakdown of communication isn't nearly as one-sided as you like to paint it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 11:07 AM   #43
Fedaykin
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,940

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Beavis: What happened in and since the early 90's that has resulted in a ~50% decline in teen pregnancies and nearly the same drop in abortions since that time?
Fedaykin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 11:13 AM   #44
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
Beavis: What happened in and since the early 90's that has resulted in a ~50% decline in teen pregnancies and nearly the same drop in abortions since that time?
Wasn't DOMA 1996?

houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 12:17 PM   #45
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
Beavis: What happened in and since the early 90's that has resulted in a ~50% decline in teen pregnancies and nearly the same drop in abortions since that time?
Part A is a complicated question with many possible answers... better contraception options, less social stigma/parental acceptance to using them?

Part B (decline in abortions) would logically follow Part A.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 12:25 PM   #46
Fedaykin
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,940

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
Part A is a complicated question with many possible answers... better contraception options, less social stigma/parental acceptance to using them?

Part B (decline in abortions) would logically follow Part A.
In other words, even you agree a realistic approach to comprehensive sex eduction is effective at reducing unwanted pregnancies, and thus abortions.

Glad we can agree on that much at least.
Fedaykin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 12:32 PM   #47
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
In other words, even you agree a realistic approach to comprehensive sex eduction is effective at reducing unwanted pregnancies, and thus abortions.

Glad we can agree on that much at least.
I don't have an issue with public sex ed. My kids will go through some or all of it (depending on what it looks like) I only have an issue with it being made mandatory. Or with it presenting abortion as a birth control option.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 04:44 AM   #48
Fedaykin
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,940

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
I don't have an issue with public sex ed. My kids will go through some or all of it (depending on what it looks like) I only have an issue with it being made mandatory. Or with it presenting abortion as a birth control option.
You claimed it didn't reduce unwanted pregnancies or abortions, citing crap data. That's what we're dealing with here.

Why should comprehensive sex ed not be mandatory? Where do you see harm in educating people about their bodies?
Fedaykin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 06:58 PM   #49
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

So for those who are interested, the filibuster (a REAL filibuster, not one of those p***Y Republican fake threatened ones) combined with some confusion on the Republican side, caused the measure to fail.

And predictably, Rick Perry has called another special session for next week to try and push this thing through, even though if/when it passes, it will get struck down by the Supreme Court anyway.

What a waste of time and money. They might as well be voting to overturn the ACA like their Washington friends.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 05:33 AM   #50
BroncoBeavis
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
You claimed it didn't reduce unwanted pregnancies or abortions, citing crap data. That's what we're dealing with here.

Why should comprehensive sex ed not be mandatory? Where do you see harm in educating people about their bodies?
The problem with your take is that pregnancy is down everywhere. Even in the yokel states you say aren't following the right prescription. It has far more to do with the mainstream social acceptance of birth control and improved contraception options.

Regardless, its not middle school teachers really driving that.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:18 PM.


Denver Broncos