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Old 06-24-2013, 06:58 AM   #126
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I'd like to see the list of 'free' nations that wouldn't just pick the guy up and turn him over.

This country has lost its collective mind. It has no standing to call out its whistleblowers on principles.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:12 AM   #127
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I notice that the corporate media has now shifted the story to "The Hunt for Red Snowden" instead of the real story: Is the U.S. government lying through its teeth and violating the Constitution on a daily basis while it builds the largest, most intrusive surveillance apparatus in history? In other words, is Snowden right?

But I guess the more entertaining story is "Where's Waldo?"
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:19 AM   #128
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I notice that the corporate media has now shifted the story to "The Hunt for Red Snowden" instead of the real story: Is the U.S. government lying through its teeth and violating the Constitution on a daily basis while it builds the largest, most intrusive surveillance apparatus in history? In other words, is Snowden right?

But I guess the more entertaining story is "Where's Waldo?"
It's what I have been saying for years, "Where the hell is the outrage"

I think back the the protests during the Viet Nam war and compare the citizenry then to todays group of zombies and do not hold out much hope for the people to take back their government. It does not matter the latest outrage people just do not give a damn. I see the future as a combination of two movies, The Hunger Games & Idiocracy
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:26 AM   #129
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I notice that the corporate media has now shifted the story to "The Hunt for Red Snowden" instead of the real story: Is the U.S. government lying through its teeth and violating the Constitution on a daily basis while it builds the largest, most intrusive surveillance apparatus in history? In other words, is Snowden right?

But I guess the more entertaining story is "Where's Waldo?"
I agree the nsa needs some serious oversight & some heads need to roll,but the nsa isn't listening to nor does it have the capability to listen to every phone call made. The nsa needs to be investigated.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:32 AM   #130
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It's what I have been saying for years, "Where the hell is the outrage"

I think back the the protests during the Viet Nam war and compare the citizenry then to todays group of zombies and do not hold out much hope for the people to take back their government. It does not matter the latest outrage people just do not give a damn. I see the future as a combination of two movies, The Hunger Games & Idiocracy
I think the 'take to the streets' barometer isn't the best one to use in this day and age. Back in the '60's and 70's, making your opposition known required just that kind of public display. But just as we no longer have to go down to the coffee or barber shop to have political discussions, the need for taking to the streets in protest isn't what it used to be. Although that's not to say it can't come to that.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:35 AM   #131
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I think the 'take to the streets' barometer isn't the best one to use in this day and age.
Not in this country, anyway. But take a look at what's going on in Turkey and Brazil, for example.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:39 AM   #132
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I agree the nsa needs some serious oversight & some heads need to roll,but the nsa isn't listening to nor does it have the capability to listen to every phone call made. The nsa needs to be investigated.
It doesn't have to listen, only record. Then you can focus on the 'threats' real, imagined, or contrived at your leisure, and as they become known.

Say some firebrand local politician starts making hay and building a national following that might lead to a popular movement the government doesn't like.

It doesn't matter whether they've been listening to his calls up until then. Now that he's on their radar they can take their time, go back to everything he's ever done and turn his life inside out.

You control this kind of data, and you effectively control the population, at least when it comes to governance.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:43 AM   #133
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Not in this country, anyway. But take a look at what's going on in Turkey and Brazil, for example.
Yeah, it's still possible. But those places aren't exactly renowned for open avenues of political discourse.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:00 AM   #134
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It doesn't have to listen, only record. Then you can focus on the 'threats' real, imagined, or contrived at your leisure, and as they become known.

Say some firebrand local politician starts making hay and building a national following that might lead to a popular movement the government doesn't like.

It doesn't matter whether they've been listening to his calls up until then. Now that he's on their radar they can take their time, go back to everything he's ever done and turn his life inside out.

You control this kind of data, and you effectively control the population, at least when it comes to governance.
I think that's a vast overestimation of the capabilities of the program. I have a hard time believing there's enough storage capacity to allow them to hold on to everything everyone does forever.

The point still stands that this can (and probably will/already has) be abused. From my perspective, the first step to even beginning a policy discussion on this is to demand that both the FISA court be made public, and to remove any and all ability to independently investigate from individual agents. I would love to see a coalition of congressmen and women come out publicly and say something like "If you think GOP cooperation was bad, you haven't seen anything yet. We will do absolutely NOTHING until we get both of these guarantees." Then spend every day on the airwaves talking in depth about the program so that the American people support the congressmen and women. Basically do a reverse Obama. Drum up public support before forcing the establishment to make a change.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:22 AM   #135
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I think that's a vast overestimation of the capabilities of the program. I have a hard time believing there's enough storage capacity to allow them to hold on to everything everyone does forever.
It probably is an overestimation of current capability. But not for lack of trying, or due to any intentional curbs put in place. And because of that, capability makes little difference when it comes to the principles at stake (at least to me) If technical limits are their only limits, the rest only becomes a matter of hurdles cleared over time.

And also, in practice, secret-selectiveness doesn't make that much difference in the ability to silence critics. You wouldn't necessarily need the data. Just the rational threat of having it.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:29 AM   #136
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I would love to see a coalition of congressmen and women come out publicly and say something like "If you think GOP cooperation was bad, you haven't seen anything yet. We will do absolutely NOTHING until we get both of these guarantees."
The sad fact is, I'm not sure there's even naked-majority opposition to what's really going on. Prominent rationalizers and excuse-makers on all sides. That's been the most disheartening part.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:05 PM   #137
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:33 PM   #138
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I notice that the corporate media has now shifted the story to "The Hunt for Red Snowden" instead of the real story: Is the U.S. government lying through its teeth and violating the Constitution on a daily basis while it builds the largest, most intrusive surveillance apparatus in history? In other words, is Snowden right?

But I guess the more entertaining story is "Where's Waldo?"
Look over here! Over here! Look over here! It's a manhunt! Horse-race! Chasing! Over here! Let's have a winners and losers debate about the manhunt! Over here! How do Republicans feel about how Obama is handling the manhunt? How do Democrats respond to Republicans' attacks on how Obama is handling the manhunt?

Over here! Over here! Over here!

Disgusting.
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:57 AM   #139
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Look over here! Over here! Look over here! It's a manhunt! Horse-race! Chasing! Over here! Let's have a winners and losers debate about the manhunt! Over here! How do Republicans feel about how Obama is handling the manhunt? How do Democrats respond to Republicans' attacks on how Obama is handling the manhunt?

Over here! Over here! Over here!

Disgusting.
It's time to turn to God without that there will be no personal peace
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:09 AM   #140
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It's time to turn to God without that there will be no personal peace
Bono of U2 gave a great interview on his faith and why he spends almost all his time and money now on trying to help people. If all the rich people were like Bono and some others we wouldn't have to tax the crap out of them. I'm a fan of his now even though he always seemed like sort of a douche.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:10 AM   #141
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It's time to turn to God without that there will be no personal peace
If an asteroid hit the Earth tomorrow and obliterated this planet to dust, not a tear in the universe would be shed. It would just go on. You'd have as much luck receiving mercy or peace praying to the ocean. Nobody cares. Our fate is in our own hands. If we destroy this planet for ourselves, it doesn't matter. The cockroaches will take over. The amoebae. The alga. The cnidarians. They won't care either.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:31 AM   #142
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If an asteroid hit the Earth tomorrow and obliterated this planet to dust, not a tear in the universe would be shed. It would just go on. You'd have as much luck receiving mercy or peace praying to the ocean. Nobody cares. Our fate is in our own hands. If we destroy this planet for ourselves, it doesn't matter. The cockroaches will take over. The amoebae. The alga. The cnidarians. They won't care either.
Are you one of those that suffer anxiety?
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:46 AM   #143
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Are you one of those that suffer anxiety?
Realizing that if there is a god, he has either no interest or no ability to intervene in your life is one of the most freeing experiences I've ever had.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:11 AM   #144
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Realizing that if there is a god, he has either no interest or no ability to intervene in your life is one of the most freeing experiences I've ever had.
How could God breathe the universe into existence, yet have no ability to intervene in your life?
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:24 AM   #145
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Realizing that if there is a god, he has either no interest or no ability to intervene in your life is one of the most freeing experiences I've ever had.
Well really there is not much I can say to you than.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:33 AM   #146
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How could God breathe the universe into existence, yet have no ability to intervene in your life?
You are assigning omnipotence and intelligence to a conveniently-anthropomorphized-fit-for-human-understand idea.

I am not.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:36 AM   #147
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Are you one of those that suffer anxiety?
Any conscious organism faced with its own inevitable demise must deal with some form of anxiety. N'est-ce pas?
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:38 AM   #148
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How could God breathe the universe into existence, yet have no ability to intervene in your life?
Well, if a God does exist, and has the ability to intervene in our lives, then there is no other rational conclusion to draw but that that God is a truly evil tyrant (sadistic, really), totally unworthy of worship.

If you found out that a particular individual could have prevented the murder and rape of a child but chose not to, what conclusions would you draw about this person? Or what if they had the power to prevent a tsunami that results in the deaths of thousands, but again chooses not to? And, please, spare me some variation of "God works in mysterious ways."
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:38 AM   #149
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A growing body of evidence seems to support the idea that the nonreligious have an easier time coping with death than do the religious, at least with their own mortality. Religious people appear to be more afraid of death than are nonreligious people. Nonreligious people are less likely to use aggressive means to extend their lives and exhibit less anxiety about dying than do religious people. That seems remarkably counterintuitive since the nonreligious are much less likely to believe in an afterlife, which is supposed to help people cope with death. But factor in that religious people are contemplating their eternal fate and it begins to make more sense. Even if they have done everything their religion says they are supposed to do, there is always a bit of uncertainty about where they might end up. As a result, religious people appear to have a greater fear of dying than do nonreligious people.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...the-religious/
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:45 AM   #150
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Who knows? There's still hope. As Einstein put it, “Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.” And since some part of us is energy...

Perhaps we just return to the primordial sea of life, like a droplet from a cloud?
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