The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Jibba Jabba > War, Religion and Politics Thread
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #76
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 55,407

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

It's pretty simple, really. We all want to stop terrorism. This is the wrong way to do it. The government needs to kill this program and come up with something else.
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:03 PM   #77
baja
Happy camper
 
baja's Avatar
 
Sweet

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 60,148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ware
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
Make note of his very last comment.
I didn't intend to single out Inferno (thus the "you people" comment)

My guess is the shadowy elite sit around smoking cigars and laughing their asses off at all the silly people arguing rather it's the right arm or left arm of the same sinister body pooping on them. And then there is the other large group that thinks the benevolent government is using this information for their protection.

Some future date people will be amazed (like we are about the people of Germany WWII era) how we all laid down for this. That is if there is a future time.
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:11 PM   #78
cutthemdown
A verbis ad verbera
 
cutthemdown's Avatar
 
Zimm to HOF

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 36,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
It's pretty simple, really. We all want to stop terrorism. This is the wrong way to do it. The government needs to kill this program and come up with something else.
**** the probably have two other programs doing the same thing lol. Also anyone who thinks Europe, Russia, China aren't also doing the same thing is kidding themselves.

It really is just like Orwell said it would be.
cutthemdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:17 PM   #79
mhgaffney
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,321
Default

Did you notice the Catch-22?

Here's the passage:

A federal judge agreed, ruling the ACLU, Amnesty International, Global Fund for Women, Global Rights, Human Rights Watch, International Criminal Defence Attorneys Association, The Nation magazine, PEN American Center, Service Employees International Union and other plaintiffs did not have standing to bring the case because they could not demonstrate that they were subject to the warrantless eavesdropping.

So how would the plaintiffs even know if they had been subject to warrantless wiretapping -- which is stealthy by its very nature?

The Judge's decision shows an arrogance that boggles any sane mind. But it's not surprising -- given all we've seen.
MHG
mhgaffney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:19 PM   #80
mhgaffney
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
It's pretty simple, really. We all want to stop terrorism. This is the wrong way to do it. The government needs to kill this program and come up with something else.
The reality is that the biggest purveyors of terrorism are governments --not dissidents.
mhgaffney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #81
Pony Boy
"Whoa Nellie"
 
Pony Boy's Avatar
 
Omaha !!!

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,659

Adopt-a-Bronco:
mellon head
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
**** the probably have two other programs doing the same thing lol. Also anyone who thinks Europe, Russia, China aren't also doing the same thing is kidding themselves.

It really is just like Orwell said it would be.


Sales of Orwell's '1984' up over 6,000 percent after NSA news

http://www.today.com/news/sales-orwe...ews-6C10282307
Pony Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:28 PM   #82
baja
Happy camper
 
baja's Avatar
 
Sweet

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 60,148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ware
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
Sales of Orwell's '1984' up over 6,000 percent after NSA news

http://www.today.com/news/sales-orwe...ews-6C10282307

It portrayed a horribly oppressive world but grossly underestimated the technology. If they ever complete their take over we are fked
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:41 PM   #83
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
It portrayed a horribly oppressive world but grossly underestimated the technology. If they ever complete their take over we are fked
It was set in 1984. I think you mean he overestimated the technology.

I'm not saying that we're just now reaching the point where the government can listen in to the extent portrayed in the novel...considering the first voice recognition tech became publicly available in the late 90s, this has likely been going on since the early 90s or earlier, even, which is why I don't really get the surprise a lot of people have.

But I suggest you re-read the novel...some of the stuff in there we don't even have yet, and definitely didn't have 30 years ago.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:47 PM   #84
cutthemdown
A verbis ad verbera
 
cutthemdown's Avatar
 
Zimm to HOF

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 36,916
Default

True our lives are better then what orwell portrayed. But the big brother watching part is spot on. Hopefully we would never stand for a truly oppressive govt. It's not perfect but Im still not too worried about the NSA busting me for talking about smoking some weed in an email. I guess if you use email and phone to talk about illegal activities it would be smart to find a new way to communicate.
cutthemdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:53 PM   #85
baja
Happy camper
 
baja's Avatar
 
Sweet

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 60,148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ware
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
It was set in 1984. I think you mean he overestimated the technology.

I'm not saying that we're just now reaching the point where the government can listen in to the extent portrayed in the novel...considering the first voice recognition tech became publicly available in the late 90s, this has likely been going on since the early 90s or earlier, even, which is why I don't really get the surprise a lot of people have.

But I suggest you re-read the novel...some of the stuff in there we don't even have yet, and definitely didn't have 30 years ago.

Yes I didn't state that correctly. The point I want to make is given today's technology it would be very hard to break out of the tyranny once it is dialed in. No place to run no way to organize we would be in total lock down while they calmly go about their culling of the herd down to the 500 million they have as a target global population.
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 02:14 PM   #86
houghtam
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
Yes I didn't state that correctly. The point I want to make is given today's technology it would be very hard to break out of the tyranny once it is dialed in. No place to run no way to organize we would be in total lock down while they calmly go about their culling of the herd down to the 500 million they have as a target global population.
True, but the real horror Orwell was writing about wasn't the technology. It wasn't even necessarily the oppressive government. It was the silent complicity of the ignorant public. He purposely didn't write much about how things got to be that way. Oppression on a macro level is a danger, for sure. But according to Orwell, oppression on the individual level, that is, fearmongering which causes the citizenry to turn on one another (and eventually themselves) is the true terror. He even more or less explicitly explained this in the scene where Winston witnesses the mob react in the crowded square. It was there he realized "if there was hope, it must lie in the proles, because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, eighty-five percent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated."

B cannot happen without A.

To put it another way, oppression isn't the cause of loss of individualism. The voluntary, fear-based decision to give up on individuality sets up an environment ripe for government oppression.
houghtam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 02:17 PM   #87
Pony Boy
"Whoa Nellie"
 
Pony Boy's Avatar
 
Omaha !!!

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,659

Adopt-a-Bronco:
mellon head
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
Yes I didn't state that correctly. The point I want to make is given today's technology it would be very hard to break out of the tyranny once it is dialed in. No place to run no way to organize we would be in total lock down while they calmly go about their culling of the herd down to the 500 million they have as a target global population.
Also given today's technology this senerio in 2001: A Space Odyssey seems very realastic.

HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

HAL: Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?

[on Dave's return to the ship, after HAL has killed the rest of the crew]

HAL: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.

HAL: I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.
Pony Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 02:36 PM   #88
baja
Happy camper
 
baja's Avatar
 
Sweet

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 60,148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ware
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
True, but the real horror Orwell was writing about wasn't the technology. It wasn't even necessarily the oppressive government. It was the silent complicity of the ignorant public. He purposely didn't write much about how things got to be that way. Oppression on a macro level is a danger, for sure. But according to Orwell, oppression on the individual level, that is, fearmongering which causes the citizenry to turn on one another (and eventually themselves) is the true terror. He even more or less explicitly explained this in the scene where Winston witnesses the mob react in the crowded square. It was there he realized "if there was hope, it must lie in the proles, because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, eighty-five percent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated."

B cannot happen without A.

To put it another way, oppression isn't the cause of loss of individualism. The voluntary, fear-based decision to give up on individuality sets up an environment ripe for government oppression.
Yes good observation. I was just making this point in a round about way on another thread
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 10:58 AM   #89
mhgaffney
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,321
Default

Aussie network interviews Julian Assange

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle35259.htm
mhgaffney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2013, 09:48 AM   #90
TonyR
Franchise Poster
 
TonyR's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 19,296
Default

Quote:
The “best-case” scenario for him telling Chinese media that we’re spying on China is that he figures that inflaming local sentiment against the U.S. will make it harder for Chinese/Hong Kong authorities to extradite him. Which is to say, instead of gratuitously humiliating America, in this scenario he’s merely betraying state semi-secrets to protect himself. Somewhere Obama’s watching this CNN clip and smiling because he knows that, like it or not, he’s locked in a battle for public opinion with Snowden right now. And everyone who saw this segment this afternoon is now thinking the same thing: If Snowden’s willing to tell China this, what else is he willing to them that he knows? Advantage: Obama.
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/1...ong-computers/
TonyR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2013, 10:13 AM   #91
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 55,407

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhgaffney View Post
The reality is that the biggest purveyors of terrorism are governments --not dissidents.
That's not true at all. When is the last time a government set off a bomb in a nightclub, or in a bus, or at the finish line of a marathon?
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2013, 10:14 AM   #92
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 55,407

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
True, but the real horror Orwell was writing about wasn't the technology. It wasn't even necessarily the oppressive government. It was the silent complicity of the ignorant public. He purposely didn't write much about how things got to be that way. Oppression on a macro level is a danger, for sure. But according to Orwell, oppression on the individual level, that is, fearmongering which causes the citizenry to turn on one another (and eventually themselves) is the true terror. He even more or less explicitly explained this in the scene where Winston witnesses the mob react in the crowded square. It was there he realized "if there was hope, it must lie in the proles, because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, eighty-five percent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated."

B cannot happen without A.

To put it another way, oppression isn't the cause of loss of individualism. The voluntary, fear-based decision to give up on individuality sets up an environment ripe for government oppression.
Somebody once said, "The only thing we need to fear is fear itself."
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 07:16 AM   #93
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 55,407

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Al Gore says NSA spying violates the Constitution:
"This in my view violates the constitution. The fourth amendment and the first amendment – and the fourth amendment language is crystal clear," he told The Guardian, which revealed the agency's phone surveillance and reported on its Internet data-mining. "It is not acceptable to have a secret interpretation of a law that goes far beyond any reasonable reading of either the law or the constitution and then classify as top secret what the actual law is."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3443646.html
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 07:28 AM   #94
baja
Happy camper
 
baja's Avatar
 
Sweet

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 60,148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ware
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
Al Gore says NSA spying violates the Constitution:
"This in my view violates the constitution. The fourth amendment and the first amendment – and the fourth amendment language is crystal clear," he told The Guardian, which revealed the agency's phone surveillance and reported on its Internet data-mining. "It is not acceptable to have a secret interpretation of a law that goes far beyond any reasonable reading of either the law or the constitution and then classify as top secret what the actual law is."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3443646.html
Good for Al, finally steps up for America.
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 08:10 AM   #95
Dukes
Ring of Famer
 
Dukes's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
Al Gore says NSA spying violates the Constitution:
"This in my view violates the constitution. The fourth amendment and the first amendment – and the fourth amendment language is crystal clear," he told The Guardian, which revealed the agency's phone surveillance and reported on its Internet data-mining. "It is not acceptable to have a secret interpretation of a law that goes far beyond any reasonable reading of either the law or the constitution and then classify as top secret what the actual law is."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3443646.html
We live in strange times. I agree with Al Gore.
Dukes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 06:23 AM   #96
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 55,407

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

BTW, did everybody know that Booz Allen is owned by the Carlyle Group? And why is this huge private equity corporation involved in this whole Snowden deal? Snowden was a CIA employee contracted out to Booz Allen. How does that work? And Booz Allen is a "consulting" corporation specializing in (according to Wiki) ... strategic planning, human capital and learning, communications, operational improvement, information technology work, systems engineering, organizational change efforts, modeling and simulation, program management, assurance and resilience, and economic business analysis. Anybody know what that means? And, according to Wiki, 99% of Booz Allen's income comes from the federal government?

So I assume what we have now are corporate entities spying on U.S. citizens and supplying the U.S. government with that information for a fee? And in turn, CIA employees, like Snowdon, work in those corporations while drawing a six figure salary from the federal government? Or was Booz Allen signing Snowdon's paycheck? I guess it wouldn't matter, as all of Booz Allen's money comes from the government anyway. At least, as far as we know.

Meanwhile, the SCOTUS gives corporations personhood allowing them to control political campaigns? Funny, when you look at the corporate letterhead of the Carlyle Group, it's filled with cronies from the Bush1 and Clinton administrations. Anybody interested in the links between the Carlyle Group and Bush's Arbusto Energy?

Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

Last edited by Rohirrim; 06-23-2013 at 06:37 AM..
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 06:29 AM   #97
baja
Happy camper
 
baja's Avatar
 
Sweet

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 60,148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ware
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
BTW, did everybody know that Booz Allen is owned by the Carlyle Group? And why is this huge private equity corporation involved in this whole Snowden deal? Snowden was a CIA employee contracted out to Booz Allen. How does that work? And Booz Allen is a "consulting" corporation specializing in (according to Wiki) ... strategic planning, human capital and learning, communications, operational improvement, information technology work, systems engineering, organizational change efforts, modeling and simulation, program management, assurance and resilience, and economic business analysis. Anybody know what that means? And, according to Wiki, 99% of Booz Allen's income comes from the federal government?

So I assume what we have now are corporate entities spying on U.S. citizens and supplying the U.S. government with that information for a fee? And in turn, CIA employees, like Snowdon, work in those corporations while drawing a six figure salary from the federal government? Or was Booz Allen signing Snowdon's paycheck?

Meanwhile, the SCOTUS gives corporations personhood allowing them to control political campaigns? Funny, when you look at the corporate letterhead of the Carlyle Group, it's filled with cronies from the Bush1 and Clinton administrations.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.
Maybe you will take a second look at what this conspiracy theory kook has been saying for years. The question you will at some point ask yourself is how far down the rabbit hole do I want to do go.
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 07:12 AM   #98
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 55,407

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Snowdon has fled Hong Kong for Russia. Reports are that he intends to travel to Caracas.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3486459.html

Last edited by Rohirrim; 06-23-2013 at 08:09 AM..
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 07:56 AM   #99
cutthemdown
A verbis ad verbera
 
cutthemdown's Avatar
 
Zimm to HOF

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 36,916
Default

What an embarrasment for us.
cutthemdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 07:57 AM   #100
baja
Happy camper
 
baja's Avatar
 
Sweet

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 60,148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ware
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
What an embarrasment for us.
Embarrassment or wake up call?
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55 PM.


Denver Broncos