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Old 06-12-2013, 08:06 AM   #51
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Absolutely. I agree. And as I said, TSA is ridiculous. It's overkill and terribly done. But again, would you choose no security? You keep avoiding the real question here. Do you think airport security should be completely removed? Should we allow people to carry guns and knives and explosives on planes?
I agree TSA is just doing their jobs, they certainly don't want anyone to think they are profiling, that would be stomping on the constitution and we all know Obama wouldn’t do that.

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Old 06-12-2013, 08:10 AM   #52
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You must prove you aren't a jihadist hell bent on hijacking this plane, citizen. Now spread 'em.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:12 AM   #53
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Safer than if there was no security. TSA is ridiculous, but I still think it's better than no security at all. As should anyone with any common sense.
There wasn't 'no security' before. This is a False Choice™
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:14 AM   #54
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We should surrender all constitutional rights, submit to sexual assault, and subject our possessions to theft in order to board a plane. That's the only way to keep us safe, and in doing so will guarantee that nobody will get anything past the TSA. The ground crew, the airport workers, and the crew members are cool... don't worry about them.
The American people have allowed the USA to become what is best described as Saturday Night Live skit

How in hell did thiis insane invasion of personal rights of privacy happen.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:21 AM   #55
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Thank you, internet.
“Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”

― George Orwell, 1984
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:36 AM   #56
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Par for the course.
Occupational insult followed by braggadocio about income and net worth in 3...2...1...
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:46 AM   #57
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The American people have allowed the USA to become what is best described as Saturday Night Live skit

How in hell did thiis insane invasion of personal rights of privacy happen.
My wife and I were at a Chili's restaurant last week and seated in the bar area. I would guess that 90% of the patrons were under 25 and they all had their faces glued to their iPhones. None were aware of what was going on around them. Most walked out like zombies with iPhone in hand, now that should be a Saturday Night Live skit.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:49 AM   #58
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My wife and I were at a Chili's restaurant last week and seated in the bar area. I would guess that 90% of the patrons were under 25 and they all had their faces glued to their iPhones. None were aware of what was going on around them. Most walked out like zombies with iPhone in hand, now that should be a Saturday Night Live skit.
Gotta let everyone on Facebook know that I'm at Chili's. And we are totally going to tip that waiter cuz he likes the sooners.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:29 AM   #59
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There wasn't 'no security' before. This is a False Choice™
Except the "before" version allowed terrorists to hijack 3 airplanes with box cutters. How many times has this, or anything remotely resembling this, happened since?
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:39 AM   #60
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Except the "before" version allowed terrorists to hijack 3 airplanes with box cutters. How many times has this, or anything remotely resembling this, happened since?
Eh, I gotta say, that's sounds an awful lot like the defense given by GW supporters over the years, i.e. "we haven't been attacked since 9/11, therefore the measures worked and have been worth it." All that was needed to prevent 9/11 were locks on the cockpit doors. That's it.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:58 AM   #61
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Eh, I gotta say, that's sounds an awful lot like the defense given by GW supporters over the years, i.e. "we haven't been attacked since 9/11, therefore the measures worked and have been worth it." All that was needed to prevent 9/11 were locks on the cockpit doors. That's it.
This.

I must say I'm quite surprised at the reactions by people like Tony and elsid. I highly doubt they had the same views on this as they had in the early 2000's, which lends credence to the double standard claim the conservatives are making. We have enough double standards from the right when they bellyache about this stuff as if Obama and the democrats were somehow the masterminds...we don't need it from you, too.

I think the more important question here is what does everyone planning on doing about it? I see a whole helluva lot of whining, outrage and feigned shock and surprise, but I don't see anyone proposing any solutions, and certainly nothing of what people are planning on doing on a personal level to address it.

You can complain all you want, but unless and until you're ready to get out on the front lines and DO something, you're still a sheep, whether your name is Beavis or Tony.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:00 AM   #62
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^ That's fair, BI. And I don't know how this discussion got to the TSA topic to begin with. I'm just trying to get these guys to explain what level of security and/or surveillance should be used. They're attacking the NSA programs, understandably, but they're not offering alternatives and they're not admitting that had Obama scrapped such programs they'd be attacking him the other direction. This was a political loser for Obama from the start. In the political environment he inherited there was no way these programs were going to be shelved. Few, if any, on "the right" complained about this stuff then. Now it's the end of the world. I don't particularly like it, but at the same time I'm not ready to impeach Obama because the NSA has technology which scans emails.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:02 AM   #63
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Unsecured cockpits. Planes full of people unaware that the hijackers wanted to die using kamikaze tactics. Passengers who thought if they just cooperated with the hijackers, they might get out unharmed. This situation will never happen again, and it has nothing to do with groping grandma and stealing ipads.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:05 AM   #64
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Yes, houghtam, and the double standard goes both ways. That's what I'm trying to point out to Beavis and Doc and other but they won't approach it. Just like they won't admit directly and/or specifically what their concerns are or what the solutions are. I admit I had more concerns then that I do now. I think a large part of that is that I didn't trust the Bush administration and was disgusted with the Iraq war. I trust the Obama administration more, although perhaps I shouldn't. I'm not saying this is all okay just because Obama is in charge now. I am saying that I'm surprised everyone is so surprised that the NSA is doing this, and I want them to explain what their concerns are. I get nothing but deflective humor and generalities on the latter.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:13 AM   #65
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This.

I must say I'm quite surprised at the reactions by people like Tony and elsid. I highly doubt they had the same views on this as they had in the early 2000's, which lends credence to the double standard claim the conservatives are making. We have enough double standards from the right when they bellyache about this stuff as if Obama and the democrats were somehow the masterminds...we don't need it from you, too.

I think the more important question here is what does everyone planning on doing about it? I see a whole helluva lot of whining, outrage and feigned shock and surprise, but I don't see anyone proposing any solutions, and certainly nothing of what people are planning on doing on a personal level to address it.

You can complain all you want, but unless and until you're ready to get out on the front lines and DO something, you're still a sheep, whether your name is Beavis or Tony.
It'll be interesting to see what Europe does. They have a real market opportunity to create competing services that guarantee privacy. And even if that doesn't turn out to be true, at least they have less vested interest in the politics and beliefs of those living halfway across the planet.

Otherwise I don't know what to tell you. I won't support anyone who takes the Feinstein/Graham/Boehner line on this. I'd like them all removed at this point (Democratically) to be honest. I've been pretty surprised at some of the right's reaction. Both sides are literally split in two over this, which I didn't expect. Yes, you can always assume some people are posturing. But today, if a Republican comes out in support of this, you know for sure, they're really ok with it (because posturing would work the other direction)

I really wish there were a libertarian middle. That just isn't the reality at this point.

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Old 06-12-2013, 10:14 AM   #66
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I have this idea that maybe we should follow the US Constitution. Use that as a guide as to what might be permissible and whatnot. I'm pretty sure it says something about probable cause, the right to privacy, freedom, etc. Crazy, I know.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:06 AM   #67
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Both sides are literally split in two over this...
This is a very interesting development. When I saw you using the ACLU to support your position, and Bill Kristol is basically supporting mine, I knew we were going to have some fun!
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:16 AM   #68
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^ That's fair, BI. And I don't know how this discussion got to the TSA topic to begin with. I'm just trying to get these guys to explain what level of security and/or surveillance should be used. They're attacking the NSA programs, understandably, but they're not offering alternatives and they're not admitting that had Obama scrapped such programs they'd be attacking him the other direction. This was a political loser for Obama from the start. In the political environment he inherited there was no way these programs were going to be shelved. Few, if any, on "the right" complained about this stuff then. Now it's the end of the world. I don't particularly like it, but at the same time I'm not ready to impeach Obama because the NSA has technology which scans emails.
I get what you're saying. Right-wingers who didn't make a peep of complaint when the Bush administration enacted most of these procedures are pretending like it's all the evil-doing of President Blackenstein. Still, that doesn't excuse Obama for continuing these policies.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:27 AM   #69
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Yes, houghtam, and the double standard goes both ways. That's what I'm trying to point out to Beavis and Doc and other but they won't approach it. Just like they won't admit directly and/or specifically what their concerns are or what the solutions are. I admit I had more concerns then that I do now. I think a large part of that is that I didn't trust the Bush administration and was disgusted with the Iraq war. I trust the Obama administration more, although perhaps I shouldn't. I'm not saying this is all okay just because Obama is in charge now. I am saying that I'm surprised everyone is so surprised that the NSA is doing this, and I want them to explain what their concerns are. I get nothing but deflective humor and generalities on the latter.
It's time to introduce passenger profiling that includes taking religious background into account. "It's a fact that over the past 34 years, starting with the Munich Olympics, the majority of terrorist attacks have been carried out by Muslims. It’s time to quit picking on Grandma and the kids for the sake of being politically correct.

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Old 06-12-2013, 11:43 AM   #70
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Right-wingers who didn't make a peep of complaint when the Bush administration enacted most of these procedures are pretending like it's all the evil-doing of President Blackenstein. Still, that doesn't excuse Obama for continuing these policies.
It's also worth noting that Obama largely has bipartisan congressional support on this. Which also doesn't make it okay. The point here would be that people should be mad at government in general, not just Obama.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:02 PM   #71
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I get what you're saying. Right-wingers who didn't make a peep of complaint when the Bush administration enacted most of these procedures are pretending like it's all the evil-doing of President Blackenstein. Still, that doesn't excuse Obama for continuing these policies.
What the hell is wrong with you people this framework for tyranny is against all of us regardless of political affiliation.

It's like being trapped in a burning room and arguing about who started the fire while the flames press to engulf the room.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:09 PM   #72
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What the hell is wrong with you people...
Make note of his very last comment.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:14 PM   #73
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What the hell is wrong with you people this framework for tyranny is against all of us regardless of political affiliation.

It's like being trapped in a burning room and arguing about who started the fire while the flames press to engulf the room.
This! At some point when it comes to issues like these we have to all get on the same page. The problem is the party in power will never admit any wrongdoing because then you won't stay in power.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:16 PM   #74
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It's also worth noting that Obama largely has bipartisan congressional support on this. Which also doesn't make it okay. The point here would be that people should be mad at government in general, not just Obama.
Here is why we can be pissed at Obama. He got elected saying he would stand up to it, would do something about it. Hell he is on video saying just that. He preached that crap and make it his issue. Now had Obama said well i think Bush and Cheney are spot on. We need to be safe and to do that you give up some privacy. But......We all know that isn't what Senator/Campaigner Obama said is it?
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:16 PM   #75
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Obama pointed at Bush and said look at that guy I will be different. Then he did the same if not worst.
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