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Old 06-09-2013, 09:03 AM   #51
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You can not have both ways. Two months ago you were b****ing that Federal Government didn't do enough to prevent the Boston Marathon Bombers by being more invasive then what this program does.

And yes private companies share and resell your information all the time. In fact there are three to four companies in the US who sole business model is collect and analyze this big data then sell that information back to retailers and businesses. 60 Minutes had a great piece on them 3 to 4 years ago.

For this program, is was briefed and approved program that both Senate Intelligence Committee and House Select Committee on Intelligence had oversight on it.
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:43 AM   #52
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I couldn't find the right story but this one is worth watching. It's only 13 minutes.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50147158n
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:44 AM   #53
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You can not have both ways. Two months ago you were b****ing that Federal Government didn't do enough to prevent the Boston Marathon Bombers by being more invasive then what this program does.

And yes private companies share and resell your information all the time. In fact there are three to four companies in the US who sole business model is collect and analyze this big data then sell that information back to retailers and businesses. 60 Minutes had a great piece on them 3 to 4 years ago.

For this program, is was briefed and approved program that both Senate Intelligence Committee and House Select Committee on Intelligence had oversight on it.
Yeah great example. Of how the government can gather all this info and be absolutely useless to do anything productive with it. You do realize this program was already in place. Oh and the Ruskies told us to watch out for these guys but apparently with both prior warning and all this surveillance they were still unable to connect any dots.

So what use was setting aside everyone's 4th Amendment rights?

And sorry but Google can't sell your emails or buy your phone records. And if they did you'd call it criminal.

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Old 06-09-2013, 10:52 AM   #54
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I'm more than aware of what's possible,
you say this....

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as I said, company by company. But Facebook doesn't go out of its way to share user info with Google. Or Comcast. None of them likely have any idea what goes on inside your banking account. Or who you called from your landline last night. Or what were in those bachelor party photos you 'privately' shared on Flickr.
And then demonstrate that you are actually quite clueless (big surprise there!). Who do you think Google's, Facebook's, Microsoft's, etc. biggest clients are? They all sell their information to the same data mining companies AND each other. That's how they make their money.

Companies want a complete picture of you just as much as the government -- and they are likely a whole lot better at it than the government.


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Combine all of that, with the click of a mouse, under the authority of a group of people who have a perpetual vested interest in suppressing and silencing nearly half of the voting population.
That's been the case for decades my ignorant fiend. Again, see ECHELON. The only change is they now don't have to work as hard to get the data, as people willingly supply it now.

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What you're missing is that yes, if your government really really wanted to find all of this out about you, they could do it. But you and I (under the 'old' system) really weren't worth the amount of effort and fuss that would've required. Under Prism, this could be taken care of for you and a million of your buddies with a trivial amount of effort.
Actually, in many ways collecting data this was is more difficult. Ever tried to build a useful database to store and sift through trillions of data points?

This system came online in 2007. No doubt it was in development for a long, long time before that.

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Excellent read, if you have any interest. And some great questions asked. Why is all of this leaking out now? Have some of the insiders seen enough that they're starting to realize how far this leads, and they're getting cold feet?
It's 'leaking' now because certain interests find it politically useful. It's no secret that the government is doing this. They have been for decades, and 12 years ago they came right out and said they were (see: PATRIOT Act), and nearly everyone was quite happy for it because it was "saving them from the evil Moooooslims!).
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:00 AM   #55
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And sorry but Google can't sell your emails or buy your phone records. And if they did you'd call it criminal.
Who on this forum are you imagining is supporting this?
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:06 AM   #56
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you say this....



And then demonstrate that you are actually quite clueless (big surprise there!). Who do you think Google's, Facebook's, Microsoft's, etc. biggest clients are? They all sell their information to the same data mining companies AND each other. That's how they make their money.
Bull****. Facebook makes money by knowing things about you other people don't know. They sell bits and chunks of it to people with a way to earn a return (from you) in response to what they've learned. At the end of the day their models usually have to provide you some kind of value for your information to be worth anything to them.

But Facebook does not just sell it's database to Google. And Google has no interest in sharing everything it knows about you with Facebook. Because they're competitors and their control of that information is their whole business.

Oh and, again, if you don't like what a company does with your info, you usually have alternatives. Not true with your all seeing government.

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It's 'leaking' now because certain interests find it politically useful. It's no secret that the government is doing this. They have been for decades, and 12 years ago they came right out and said they were (see: PATRIOT Act), and nearly everyone was quite happy for it because it was "saving them from the evil Moooooslims!).
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:09 AM   #57
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Who on this forum are you imagining is supporting this?
Uh, didn't you just read the dude tell me that it was either this, or more Boston Marathon bombings?
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:17 AM   #58
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Uh, didn't you just read the dude tell me that it was either this, or more Boston Marathon bombings?
Work on your reading comprehension. He was pointing out the hypocrisy not throwing support.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:31 AM   #59
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Work on your reading comprehension. He was pointing out the hypocrisy not throwing support.
What's the hypocrisy. I never blamed the government for the Boston incident. Violence like that is inevitable in a free society.

The only thing Boston proves is that Prism is about gaining control over Americans more so than terrorists.

If you want to see hypocrisy....

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1511599#.UbTI-5wQVh4

Memories, like the corner of my mind....
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:39 AM   #60
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Bull****. Facebook makes money by knowing things about you other people don't know. They sell bits and chunks of it to people with a way to earn a return (from you) in response to what they've learned. At the end of the day their models usually have to provide you some kind of value for your information to be worth anything to them.

But Facebook does not just sell it's database to Google. And Google has no interest in sharing everything it knows about you with Facebook. Because they're competitors and their control of that information is their whole business.
Ahh. Naivete. The most value for all the data collected about you is if it is combined. What did you search for on google & what did you like on facebook is a whole lot more valuable than just what you liked or just what you searched for.

That I searched for a The China Study the other day on google doesn't mean I'll buy the book, but if I also post about it on facebook, the odds of me being a potential customer get a lot higher.

You seem to thing Google, et al. are at the top of the data mining food chain.... they aren't.

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Oh and, again, if you don't like what a company does with your info, you usually have alternatives. Not true with your all seeing government.
There are no alternatives on the internet. Every company on the internet is leveraging your information -- even those that traditionally make money more directly like Amazon and Apple.

And more than that, even 'real world' businesses are in the game. How many 'club' cards to you have? Will you know your daughter's pregnant before Target does?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirh...er-father-did/

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yawn
LMAO yeah just yawn it away. Did you really not expect the things in the PATRIOT act to actually be used?
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:42 AM   #61
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What's the hypocrisy. I never blamed the government for the Boston incident. Violence like that is inevitable in a free society.
No one was saying YOU were one of the hypocrites.

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The only thing Boston proves is that Prism is about gaining control over Americans more so than terrorists.
Or it's really difficult to sift through the enormous amounts of data that such a system has.

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If you want to see hypocrisy....

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1511599#.UbTI-5wQVh4

Memories, like the corner of my mind....
Nice red herring.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:45 AM   #62
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And sorry but Google can't sell your emails or buy your phone records. And if they did you'd call it criminal.
I see I misquoted this before after you edited the post.

Of course, the above it hilariously idiotic. Selling your emails (or rather, a summary of your email) is EXACTLY what google (and other online email providers) does. That's the business model of gmail.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:53 AM   #63
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Ahh. Naivete. The most value for all the data collected about you is if it is combined. What did you search for on google & what did you like on facebook is a whole lot more valuable than just what you liked or just what you searched for.

That I searched for a The China Study the other day on google doesn't mean I'll buy the book, but if I also post about it on facebook, the odds of me being a potential customer get a lot higher.

You seem to thing Google, et al. are at the top of the data mining food chain.... they aren't.
I didn't say they were at the top. But Google doesn't gather information just to sell it to someone who would then sell it to Facebook or Yahoo. Besides, you're focusing on pretty much the least invasive angle on this. It's not just about your personal preferences The real crime of it is in monitoring of correspondence where there's an expectation (legal and otherwise) of privacy. Email? Skype? Complete phone records?

Like I said, if any Company (or Republican) in the world were surreptitiously mining that information in transit, you'd want people thrown in jail.



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There are no alternatives on the internet. Every company on the internet is leveraging your information -- even those that traditionally make money more directly like Amazon and Apple.

And more than that, even 'real world' businesses are in the game. How many 'club' cards to you have? Will you know your daughter's pregnant before Target does?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirh...er-father-did/
There are alternatives to using webmail. Or Skype. Search would be difficult, but as I said, that's the least of our concerns with this cluster****.

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Old 06-09-2013, 12:03 PM   #64
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I see I misquoted this before after you edited the post.

Of course, the above it hilariously idiotic. Selling your emails (or rather, a summary of your email) is EXACTLY what google (and other online email providers) does. That's the business model of gmail.
They can't 'sell' the email. They can look for keywords. But nobody's then allowed to then just read the email (like your government does) if something catches their fancy. But it is a valid concern. Of course a fairly irrelevant one to the point at hand.

Because what you're doing is subjecting everyone to the public's lowest privacy denominator. Just because some people subject themselves to that lack of privacy (with certain communications), all communications everywhere should be subjected to the same standard without anyone's consent?

Some people may not mind living with public webcams all over their house. Does that give the Feds the right to video everyone?
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:25 PM   #65
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I didn't say they were at the top. But Google doesn't gather information just to sell it to someone who would then sell it to Facebook or Yahoo. Besides, you're focusing on pretty much the least invasive angle on this. It's not just about your personal preferences The real crime of it is in monitoring of correspondence where there's an expectation (legal and otherwise) of privacy. Email? Skype? Complete phone records?
None of that has been protected for a LONG time (in some cases never). You are seriously behind the times here bub.

Phone records? Declared public records a long time ago (not content, but records of calls which is what is being collected)

Email records (including full text)? Only considered "private" for a very limited amount of time (180 days), and only if you haven't read it yet, and then completely unprotected. Completely outdated and useless "protection", even if you don't use "webmail" (SMTP and POP servers quite regularly store emails much, much longer than that)

Skype? LMAO not private at all -- just like any other service provided by Microsoft, etc.

The only way to be even remotely "private" on the internet is to encrypt everything with 3rd party encryption -- and even then it's still trivial to determine the type of information the government is collecting here (i.e. who you're talking to) because you can't encrypt that.

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Like I said, if any Company (or Republican) in the world were surreptitiously mining that information in transit, you'd want people thrown in jail.
Like it or not, it's "legal", and all parties are involved. I'm personally just hoping that after the dust settles and all the selective, politically motivated angst stops that people remain aware of the core problem. I don't hold out too much hope. They pretty much dropped their pants and waved their collective wang at us in 2001 and no one gave a sh*t.


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There are alternatives to using webmail. Or Skype. Search would be difficult, but as I said, that's the least of our concerns with this cluster****.
The only way to avoid the invasion of your privacy, in either case, is to avoid using technology of any sort. Internet, non-cash transactions, etc.

The blind eye you want to turn to private industry on this matter is very telling. Who cares if Microsoft, etc. are all invading your privacy, it's not like it's the government doing it!

oh wait....
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:28 PM   #66
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They can't 'sell' the email. They can look for keywords. But nobody's then allowed to then just read the email (like your government does) if something catches their fancy. But it is a valid concern. Of course a fairly irrelevant one to the point at hand.
There' absolutely no material difference. Do you think the government actually sits down and reads all the trillions of emails? No, they use the same types of algorithms that Google, etc. does (hell, they probably steal the actual algorithms).

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Because what you're doing is subjecting everyone to the public's lowest privacy denominator. Just because some people subject themselves to that lack of privacy (with certain communications), all communications everywhere should be subjected to the same standard without anyone's consent?

Some people may not mind living with public webcams all over their house. Does that give the Feds the right to video everyone?
Once again, no one here is defending this.
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:09 PM   #67
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I have yet to see anyone "defend" it. I see a lot of people who are unable to wrap their minds around the surprise demonstrated by people who somehow didn't know or suspect this has been going on for a long time.

(Edit: After re-reading your post, I suspect the bolded part is referring to legislators. I thought you were referring to people on the board.)


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I know people are going excited and political spin is going to be overboard, but in reality it about some of your fellow Americans attempting to keep you safe. They were faced with a problem and very scary potential that there were individuals in country that were out to kill innocent people.

To solve that problem they turned to technology to solve that that problem, a major strategic and tactical advantage that we have over rest of the world. They used large scale data mining and big data techniques to notice patterns and outliers to narrow their focus and then go get legal authority to investigate. Something similar that Google, Amazon and large brick and mortar companies do all the time with our data lifestyles. (There is reason Google flashes certain ads to you)

This is how they caught the dude in Denver that was going to attempt to bomb the NYC subway system. The notice activity between a known terrorist email system and seldom used email account in the US. The NSA turned that information to the FBI and CIA to investigate and follow the legal process.

In world were your life is has unique data footprint, and anyone that has resources can build a profile of your life, this is loss of privacy you live with.
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:10 PM   #68
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There' absolutely no material difference. Do you think the government actually sits down and reads all the trillions of emails? No, they use the same types of algorithms that Google, etc. does (hell, they probably steal the actual algorithms).



Once again, no one here is defending this.
See previous post.
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:55 PM   #69
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None of that has been protected for a LONG time (in some cases never). You are seriously behind the times here bub.

Phone records? Declared public records a long time ago (not content, but records of calls which is what is being collected)
Demonstrably not true. Hence the reason the NSA needs a standing FISA warrant to collect those records.

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Email records (including full text)? Only considered "private" for a very limited amount of time (180 days), and only if you haven't read it yet, and then completely unprotected. Completely outdated and useless "protection", even if you don't use "webmail" (SMTP and POP servers quite regularly store emails much, much longer than that)
True or false. If a company sniffed and read emails that had simply transferred over its network between third parties, they would be committing a crime.

This is what your government is doing.

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Skype? LMAO not private at all -- just like any other service provided by Microsoft, etc.

The only way to be even remotely "private" on the internet is to encrypt everything with 3rd party encryption -- and even then it's still trivial to determine the type of information the government is collecting here (i.e. who you're talking to) because you can't encrypt that.
Here you're conflating technical security measures with lawfulness. SMTP is completely unencrypted. Nobody that I'm aware of has ever made the argument that simply because something is unencrypted (or trivially so) it becomes lawful to intercept and utilize. There's no legal basis for that. If someone uses a **** password on their hotmail account, does that mean anyone who can figure it out is legally entitled to read their email?

No, that's a crime.

If you leave your front door unlocked, do police need a warrant to search your house? It's the same thing. Because of the 4th Amendment, the government isn't only held to the same standard as private entities, it's held to a HIGHER standard.

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Old 06-09-2013, 03:01 PM   #70
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See previous post.
Yes I do think the program is legal and justified. Unlike most here I understand what they are doing and why and not getting caught up in the ridiculous spin and fear mongering. Also people that been fully briefed and granted access support it to.

http://news.yahoo.com/intelligence-c...opstories.html

" The leaders of the Senate and House Intelligence committees defended the National Security Agency's phone and internet surveillance programs revealed last week, saying that the programs are "within the law" and have been critical in thwarting potential terrorist attacks.

Senate Intelligence Committee Chair Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said on "This Week" Sunday that the NSA phone surveillance program revealed in reports last week is limited in scope to viewing phone records, not listening to private conversations, while reiterating that court orders are required for further information.

"The program is essentially walled off within the NSA. There are limited numbers of people who have access to it," Feinstein said on "This Week." "The only thing taken, as has been correctly expressed, is not content of a conversation, but the information that is generally on your telephone bill, which has been held not to be private personal property by the Supreme Court. If there is strong suspicion that a terrorist outside of the country is trying to reach someone on the inside of the country, those numbers then can be obtained. If you want to collect content on the American, then a court order is issued.""

"The National Security Agency does not listen to Americans' phone calls and it is not reading Americans' emails. None of these programs allow that," added Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., chair of the House Intelligence Committee.
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Old 06-09-2013, 03:03 PM   #71
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Yeah great example. Of how the government can gather all this info and be absolutely useless to do anything productive with it. You do realize this program was already in place. Oh and the Ruskies told us to watch out for these guys but apparently with both prior warning and all this surveillance they were still unable to connect any dots.

So what use was setting aside everyone's 4th Amendment rights?

And sorry but Google can't sell your emails or buy your phone records. And if they did you'd call it criminal.
They didn't gather all the data in one place. It one of the main reason the IC is attempting to build private cloud that will allow access to all the data they have gather and turn it into information. The problem is the security controls and needs to know.

And yes Google and Facebook sell information about to third parties. See the 60 minute link I posted.

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Old 06-09-2013, 03:46 PM   #72
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They didn't gather all the data in one place. It one of the main reason the IC is attempting to build private cloud that will allow access to all the data they have gather and turn it into information. The problem is the security controls and needs to know.
No, the problem is the government wants to see everything, look for things that are 'wrong' and then pursue them.

It's precisely the reason the 4th Amendment was written. Because as the government has repeatedly shown over its history... its definition of right and wrong is eminently flexible.
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Old 06-09-2013, 04:10 PM   #73
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No, the problem is the government wants to see everything, look for things that are 'wrong' and then pursue them.

It's precisely the reason the 4th Amendment was written. Because as the government has repeatedly shown over its history... its definition of right and wrong is eminently flexible.
They don't want to look at everything, the people working at NSA, NRO, CIA and rest of the IC want to protect their fellow Americans and our way of life. The people you get in the agencies are attempting to do very hard job and they all care very much about this country.

That what they were doing and now because with some low level idiot decided he knew better then whole of folks, we have lose viable shield in defending this nation.
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Old 06-09-2013, 04:16 PM   #74
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They don't want to look at everything, the people working at NSA, NRO, CIA and rest of the IC want to protect their fellow Americans and our way of life. The people you get in the agencies are attempting to do very hard job and they all care very much about this country.

That what they were doing and now because with some low level idiot decided he knew better then whole of folks, we have lose viable shield in defending this nation.
I have no doubt most of them believe that. I'm sure most of their IRS brethren believe that as well. The reality however is that there is no freedom if that freedom hinges entirely on the motives and ethical standards of federal agents.
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:21 PM   #75
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elsid, just for myself, and pov: don't use congress and their comitees as endorsements. these are thesame dbags selling us out for cash.

i do find it interesting the whislteblower is in hong kong, wonder if china's laughing: "don't yell at us for hacking, you hack your own people"

one other thing elsid, the FISA court is secret, so review and over sight is not something i have great faith in.
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