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Old 06-07-2013, 10:32 AM   #1451
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Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang View Post
Because its a waste to use him off ball. This happened in Miami's first year (when they did that stupid Wade take it/Bron take it switch off.. They had success (theres just too much talent not to) but hes a much more effective player when he's dictating the action because he can attack you from any level and consistently find the open man. Wanna know a Miami wasted possession? When Chalmers runs the point and LeBron sits in the corner.

If I'm Miami, I want him touching it every single possession and work through him. Like Magic.
Exactly. Lebron has a usage rate like Magic, exactly my point.

The difference between them is that:

1.) Magic had an extremely developed set of moves in the high and low post area, which allowed him to affect plays off the ball a lot more (something Lebron's working on but hasn't gotten down yet).

2.) Magic focused on distributing the ball to get specific guys going, and then would get extra assertive when the game was on the line.

And there in lies the point: LeBron doesn't consciously manage the rhythmic pace of a game as well as a point guard does, but for him to thrive he must dominate the ball even more than the greatest PG in the history of the game.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:40 AM   #1452
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I do agree sometimes LeBron thinks too much for his own good, but when he needs to take over games, he's been doing it. But he's an incredibly smart basketball player and looks for the smart play. And as you said, the team is currently perfectly constructed for him. Right now Miami's problem is health. Wade played well yesterday, but hasn't been the same. And Bosh has been out of sorts for a while. He needs those guys to step up like Michael's cohorts always seemed to do in the moment.

I just took issue with the beta male comment about him always deferring...LeBron has basically, single handedly, dragged this current Miami team into the finals.
To me this comes down to two things:

1.) its a live or die with LeBron situation because his style dominates the ball handling. So when you bring him on your team, you are handing him the keys to running the offense, you can't have him play an off ball role like you would have a traditional 2 or 3 position player.

2.) Once the keys are in his hands, he often inexplicably shows lack of assertiveness in critical momentum shifting possessions where he's been aggressive during less tense situations (such as when there's nothing to lose, or when the game's not on the line, or when everyone's chipping in). This really confuses people, and its because he's timid to take the shot at that moment.

His play is undoubtedly the engine that drives the team, but he is afraid to take responsibility, that's where the word "Beta" comes from. I'm gonna keep calling him that until i see him attack his fears.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:02 AM   #1453
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To me this comes down to two things:

1.) its a live or die with LeBron situation because his style dominates the ball handling. So when you bring him on your team, you are handing him the keys to running the offense, you can't have him play an off ball role like you would have a traditional 2 or 3 position player.

2.) Once the keys are in his hands, he often inexplicably shows lack of assertiveness in critical momentum shifting possessions where he's been aggressive during less tense situations (such as when there's nothing to lose, or when the game's not on the line, or when everyone's chipping in). This really confuses people, and its because he's timid to take the shot at that moment.

His play is undoubtedly the engine that drives the team, but he is afraid to take responsibility, that's where the word "Beta" comes from. I'm gonna keep calling him that until i see him attack his fears.
I just disagree. Simple as that. Even if I agree with your take on his game, even though I dont agree that he doesnt manage the rhythmic pace, I think he does just fine (we can agree to disagree on that). But I'll never agree about him becoming timid. I kinda understood this position more in the past (though thought it was overstated), but he just got done with the Indiana series where he never shied away from ****, and off a 2012 playoff where he completely dominated.

The Spurs played a defense last night that was solely meant to disrupt him and let outside shooters have their way, so LeBron deferred (the smart basketball decision) They didn't hit the shots (ugh, especially bosh)
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:33 PM   #1454
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I was just told by espn that the average age of the Spurs is 4 years younger than the average age of a heat. Surprising.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:00 PM   #1455
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Jordan pushed off of Russell, which was a blatant foul, in the 6th or maybe it was the 7th game to win the championship against the Jazz in the last run against "Stockton and Malone". The refs gave the "man" differential rules compared to others because he drew the money for the league. Jordan screwed Malone out of a chance to get a ring because the refs had their noses attached to his butt.... I hope they don't do that with James against the Spurs, but you can bet your azz they'll try..
They didn't screw Malone out of a ring, yes, maybe the chance. There was no way the Jazz were going to win game 7. Yes Jordan did commit a foul, but it's like any other ref mess up, theres a lot of time to not be in that situation.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:07 PM   #1456
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I was just told by espn that the average age of the Spurs is 4 years younger than the average age of a heat. Surprising.
Outside of duncan and ginobili most of them are young. Kawhi is like 21. Green splitter Neal and the players they don't even need to use like Blair are all in the 20s. Parker is in the prime at 30.

Duncan is playing like a late 20s though. Playing better than he did in the mid 2000s. 80% free throws? That outside shot above the key? He's amazing.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:39 AM   #1457
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Jordan pushed off of Russell, which was a blatant foul, in the 6th or maybe it was the 7th game to win the championship against the Jazz in the last run against "Stockton and Malone". The refs gave the "man" differential rules compared to others because he drew the money for the league. Jordan screwed Malone out of a chance to get a ring because the refs had their noses attached to his butt.... I hope they don't do that with James against the Spurs, but you can bet your azz they'll try..

Actually, Russell was so far out of position because he overplayed the drive. Jordan put his hand on Russell but he didn't really have the leverage to put enough behind a shove to make Russell as out of position as he was. Again, the reason Russell was out of position is because he overplayed the drive.

Secondly, Jordan was the reason that the game became so physical in the 90s ultimately leading to the significant rule changes around 2004. Jordan used to light Detroit up for 50 pts routinely. But then they adopted this ultra physical style of play. The fouls became more frequent and also drastically more severe. What they did was dare officials to stop the game every 8 seconds or only call the more severe fouls in order to maintain a flow of the game. The league looked the other way and allowed the contact. This style of play meant to limit Jordan also netted Detroit two NBA titles. This is hardly preferrential treatment. The NBA's rule changes from around 2004/2005 were meant to make the game easier for perimeter players. They didn't do this while Jordan was playing. They did the opposite. Instead, they gave defensive players more leeway.

If the league wouldnt have allowed the Pistons to re-define what a foul was, the Bulls might have started their title run 2 years earlier. The Bulls lost to the Pistons in 6 and 7 games in consecutive years in 89 and 90. Without that edge, the Bulls might have had 2 more.

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Old 06-08-2013, 12:41 PM   #1458
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Actually, Russell was so far out of position because he overplayed the drive. Jordan put his hand on Russell but he didn't really have the leverage to put enough behind a shove to make Russell as out of position as he was. Again, the reason Russell was out of position is because he overplayed the drive.

Secondly, Jordan was the reason that the game became so physical in the 90s ultimately leading to the significant rule changes around 2004. Jordan used to light Detroit up for 50 pts routinely. But then they adopted this ultra physical style of play. The fouls became more frequent and also drastically more severe. What they did was dare officials to stop the game every 8 seconds or only call the more severe fouls in order to maintain a flow of the game. The league looked the other way and allowed the contact. This style of play meant to limit Jordan also netted Detroit two NBA titles. This is hardly preferrential treatment. The NBA's rule changes from around 2004/2005 were meant to make the game easier for perimeter players. They didn't do this while Jordan was playing. They did the opposite. Instead, they gave defensive players more leeway.

If the league wouldnt have allowed the Pistons to re-define what a foul was, the Bulls might have started their title run 2 years earlier. The Bulls lost to the Pistons in 6 and 7 games in consecutive years in 89 and 90. Without that edge, the Bulls might have had 2 more.
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Old 06-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #1459
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I just disagree. Simple as that. Even if I agree with your take on his game, even though I dont agree that he doesnt manage the rhythmic pace, I think he does just fine (we can agree to disagree on that). But I'll never agree about him becoming timid. I kinda understood this position more in the past (though thought it was overstated), but he just got done with the Indiana series where he never shied away from ****, and off a 2012 playoff where he completely dominated.

The Spurs played a defense last night that was solely meant to disrupt him and let outside shooters have their way, so LeBron deferred (the smart basketball decision) They didn't hit the shots (ugh, especially bosh)
I agree with you there... You almost always have to pass in that situation. He made the right call, the open player just didn't hit the shot. Credit DuncAn for not chasing Bosh, that was what the play was designed for...take Duncan out of the play and let James get the points in the paint.
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #1460
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No maven yet? Is anyone else embarrassed that he calls himself a Broncos fan?
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:49 PM   #1461
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No double time for Maven. Bron is 23-3 with his butt buddy Joey Crawford being ref.
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:58 PM   #1462
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No maven yet? Is anyone else embarrassed that he calls himself a Broncos fan?
Esp best team in NBA why does a one loss bother him\she like that in a 7 game series. You should show up win or lose. I'm not sure if he/she disappears after a Bronco loss or not.

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Old 06-08-2013, 04:04 PM   #1463
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No maven yet? Is anyone else embarrassed that he calls himself a Broncos fan?
I thought Maven was a chick?
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Old 06-08-2013, 04:13 PM   #1464
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The thing that makes Jordan so good, is he would actually just freakin dominate, and you couldn't stop him. 70/60/50 point games in the playoffs? Thats absurd.
Lebron just seems to pass too much at crunch times. The question is, would you rather Lebron try a contested layup/inside shot or rely on Bosh making a 25ft 3 attempt?
Funny thing is, people would probably criticize him for not kicking out to Bosh if he misses the shot anyways. Most criticized player ever I'd say, and its mostly due to that stupid "The Decision" crap. THAT is why some people hate him. No reason to do that.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:39 PM   #1465
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I thought Maven was a chick?
That what I've been assuming. Shirtless pics of David beckham certainly paints a picture of a woman. Although could be a gay dude?
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:49 PM   #1466
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I saw a very metro man. Wears Armani and gets his eyebrows waxed.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:58 PM   #1467
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Duncan is playing like a late 20s though. Playing better than he did in the mid 2000s. 80% free throws? That outside shot above the key? He's amazing.
Reminds me of Dirk when the Mavs won the Championship. He was utterly amazing and the Heat couldn't stop him.

Same thing is happening with Duncan. Birdman doesn't stand a chance.
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:09 PM   #1468
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I saw a very metro man. Wears Armani and gets his eyebrows waxed.
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:55 PM   #1469
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How sick was that? he almost broke his face on the rim.
He can still get up. Probably my fav dunk so far. He can still flat out get up.

QUOTE=SonOfLe-loLang;3856466]I really dislike the 2-3-2 finals format[/QUOTE]

Never liked it, never will. This isn't the 1960's or whenever this rule was implemented. Just dumb. No excuse to have the ECF have a 2-2-1-1-1, but The Finals? 2-3-2

Regardless if the Heat are in it, but of'course they are, it's ****ing stupid.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:02 PM   #1470
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Wow I didn't think anyone could be as penis-less as Angry Llama but maven takes the cake. I'm embarassed he is a bronco fan as I'm sure he acts same way about the broncos making us all look bad to the people he pulls his antics on.
We <3 the Broncos. Why u got to be a h8r. I represent #bronconation on South Beach.

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Old 06-08-2013, 10:05 PM   #1471
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Man, it was crazy! I have no idea why Spoltra didn't defend Hibbert in games 2-6 like that. One thing we saw was how we opened up the floor just being aggressive. Even when Bosh and Wade would miss/get blocked on every attmept in the first two quarters, just them being aggressive, opened up everything. Hey and Ray showed up big! It will be interesting to see how we match up against the Spurs. Should be a good series.
Penetration and kicking it. Team is built on it.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:06 PM   #1472
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George Karl fired. Crazy ****ing offseason.

I can handle the Nuggs not wanting to resign Karl, but I'm still pissed about Masai.
Crazy? No. Fired? Deserved.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:10 PM   #1473
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Jordan pushed off of Russell, which was a blatant foul,
duh it was a foul
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:17 PM   #1474
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Crazy? No. Fired? Deserved.
You're an odd person.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:28 PM   #1475
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The guy makes decisions that reduce accountability when provided the opportunity to shrink from the moment. When he has no other choice he'll take the shot, but otherwise he's looking to pass.

He also up until last year had an inconsistent mastery of back-to-basket moves and outside jumpers, which made him a one trick pony that was easier to neutralize in late game situations; forcing a teammate to take a three.

Lebron teams are almost always built with a stretch four because he is a ball dominant forward who runs isos on the top of the key with a problematic inside shot or outside pass dilemma that he forces onto the opposing defense, spacing the 4 out is necessary for this style to work.

The phenomenons above causes his drives to create plays but chews up a lot of shot clock time to create those plays which often turns into an outside jumpshot for a teammate. His effect on the game reflects that of a bigman even though he is a perimeter player. The end result is that you'll notice almost every bigman who has ever played with Lebron has posted less impressive statistics than with him, this is not true of other superstar perimeter players(even though Lebron posts more assists, he actually hurts the bigman he plays with).

But his biggest problem by far is that while he dominates the ball like a 2 guard... in key momentum situations where a real guard with a strong outside and back to basket game (and the determination) can get a bucket to hold off a run; he simply passes. Tonight, that play was when the heat were up by 2 points and Lebron made multiple passes, one of which was a turnover that lead to a Tony Parker layup on the other end. He also passed up an open 3 that could've put the heat up by 4 earlier in the game. Finally, he had a inside shot at the hoop against a back-tracking duncan and passed it up for their power forward to take a 3point shot.

The combination of his ball domination style and his lack of assertiveness on scoring the basketball (a problem that Magic Johnson did not have).. when momentum shifts require a bucket from his team; causes there to be a serious offensive rhythm breakdown in many key pressure situations. If you actually sat down play by play and looked at the key momentum changing plays of each game you'll notice that Lebron plays hot-potato with the basketball in moments where he needs to have the stones to shoot the damn basketball.

The heat are a better team with Wade taking point in the 4th quarter for this reason.

As for top 5... you're the one who is disrespecting great players if you think Lebron is top 5.

MJ, Larry, Magic & Kobe are all dominating back court players with 5 rings or more.

Jabbar & Russell both have more exemplary careers as winners.

Wilt was more dominant both physically and statistically than Lebron could ever be. Shaq just as well, and with 3 more rings.

Duncan has the more distinguished career right now and has 5 rings going on six if he beats Lebron this series.

Lebron after winning 1 tittle belongs AT BEST - in the conversation with Hakeem and the big O as guys who won one or two titles and had many dominant regular season runs; and I'm not sure how many people who really appreciate Oscar and Hakeem could rank Lebron ahead of either of them.

Lebron James won his only championship by joining Wade and Bosh at the peak of their careers to try and create a superteam, something no other top player had done in the prime of their career. As a result unless Lebron separates himself from Hakeen and Oscar through championships, I'm not sure he ever makes it into the top 10.
WTF is this ****. I will pick on one of your stupid comments. Please tell me who were those stretch 4's in Cleveland. Good grief man. Have ****ing fun listing them.
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