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Old 05-24-2013, 01:45 PM   #126
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ps4 will also support 2 and 4k resolutions......... very nice.
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:52 PM   #127
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I totally forgot those things didn't have HDMI's 'til 2007. Yeah, see this is why I never by the first version of any new technology.

I think we should bring this full circle and point out the PS4 and Xbone (I'm calling it X bone from now on) that is released at launch probably won't be the same one they're selling two years later...
Yeah my first Xbox didn't have that so I bought the new one. Plus WiFi is so much better then having a damn cord accross the room.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:03 PM   #128
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ps4 will also support 2 and 4k resolutions......... very nice.
This would be awesome in a dedicated theater room with a 4K projector.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:24 PM   #129
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This would be awesome in a dedicated theater room with a 4K projector.
even with out that. 2k is post consumer available already (4k if you have the cash).

the thing I liked about the ps3 was the pre planning. it was made 3d ready with a firmware update on a system that existed already.

I also understand they plan to expand the Blu-ray format to 3 or 4 layers, double the capacity is very good. this would show itself on games first but it leaves options available for expansion.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:30 PM   #130
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even with out that. 2k is post consumer available already (4k if you have the cash).

the thing I liked about the ps3 was the pre planning. it was made 3d ready with a firmware update on a system that existed already.

I also understand they plan to expand the Blu-ray format to 3 or 4 layers, double the capacity is very good. this would show itself on games first but it leaves options available for expansion.
That's huge. Wouldn't they be limited by how fast they can read off the disc though?
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:40 PM   #131
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I was told that Sony's online service didn't hold a candle to Microsoft's. No friends list, no party feature, the chat and video chat were all sub par. That it was much harder to get group of friends together and go play a game. Is that true?
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:52 PM   #132
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I was told that Sony's online service didn't hold a candle to Microsoft's. No friends list, no party feature, the chat and video chat were all sub par. That it was much harder to get group of friends together and go play a game. Is that true?

Sony's online service is free, unless you go with Playstation Plus, which gives you discounts on DLC and games. Sony has a friend's list. I cant comment on the playstation eye. I never had problems with chat features. I played a ton of Borderlands with friends, just us. It was not that difficult to do.


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Old 05-24-2013, 03:58 PM   #133
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Here's a question. If either M$ or Sony could gain an edge by significantly beating the other's GPU, wouldn't they do so? Do you think they're just trying to **** you over here? These things will be sold at a loss at first, they always are. There's only so much you can do with $500. You people are ****ing ridiculous. Who are you angry at?

If you want a $1200 PC, buy a ****ing $1200 PC.
neither company anticipates selling this system at a loss

and yes, of course either company could beat the other. they didn't, because they are colluding through AMD. they have the same CPU, the same GPU, and the same amount of RAM. Sony is clocking the CPU higher and using DDR5 instead of DDR3 for the RAM. they are also likely charging more.

this is the first time in 30 years of console gaming that competing systems have had architectures anywhere near alike. they are reskinned PCs with a slightly different philosophy in harware configuration. there is zero proprietary hardware in these boxes.
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Old 05-24-2013, 04:41 PM   #134
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neither company anticipates selling this system at a loss
Source? Interesting if true.

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and yes, of course either company could beat the other. they didn't, because they are colluding through AMD.
Colluding? That's speculation. They are both going through AMD, true, but collusion is wild speculation.

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they have the same CPU, the same GPU, and the same amount of RAM. Sony is clocking the CPU higher and using DDR5 instead of DDR3 for the RAM. they are also likely charging more.

this is the first time in 30 years of console gaming that competing systems have had architectures anywhere near alike. they are reskinned PCs with a slightly different philosophy in harware configuration. there is zero proprietary hardware in these boxes.
Since we're speculating, has anyone cared to speculate that both companies are going with AMD and both companies have similar specs because that's the best that can be produced for the amount consumers are willing to pay for a console? Gamers act like these companies owe them something, like they are providing a public service. They aren't. They're here to make money. If you don't like their product, voice your opinion with your wallet.
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Old 05-24-2013, 04:45 PM   #135
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Google reveals no source stating that M$ will be selling the XBOX One at a loss. Maybe I didn't look deep enough, but I see nothing but wild speculation.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:11 PM   #136
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Google reveals no source stating that M$ will be selling the XBOX One at a loss. Maybe I didn't look deep enough, but I see nothing but wild speculation.
Unless they drastically change business models, or vastly increase price, this is absolutely unavoidable.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:12 PM   #137
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Google reveals no source stating that M$ will be selling the XBOX One at a loss. Maybe I didn't look deep enough, but I see nothing but wild speculation.

From what I understand of console sales cycles, Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft tend to lose money on their systems when they first come out. The price drops tend to create a flood in demand, selling more units. But I'd assume for all three that they know that, so as long as they end up in the black by the end of the system's lifespan they are fine with it.

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Old 05-24-2013, 05:14 PM   #138
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neither company anticipates selling this system at a loss

and yes, of course either company could beat the other. they didn't, because they are colluding through AMD. they have the same CPU, the same GPU, and the same amount of RAM. Sony is clocking the CPU higher and using DDR5 instead of DDR3 for the RAM. they are also likely charging more.

this is the first time in 30 years of console gaming that competing systems have had architectures anywhere near alike. they are reskinned PCs with a slightly different philosophy in harware configuration. there is zero proprietary hardware in these boxes.
AMD has two entirely separate campuses dedicated to each system, the two teams are under strict NDA's to avoid speaking with or contacting each other. Once these engineers go to work, they do it in a black box, but because they start with similar die sizes, power constraints, and silicon budgets, the designs are going to be somewhat similar. Furthermore, AMD's patents and resources are available to both groups, so there can be crossover, but neither side knows what the other is doing - MS and Sony each have dedicated personnel (from AMD) that work in near isolation.

Each chip has been in development for years, with Microsoft's GPU and CPU in the works since 2006. Half of Microsoft's system on chip (soc) is designed by their own staff.


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Old 05-24-2013, 05:18 PM   #139
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Unless they drastically change business models, or vastly increase price, this is absolutely unavoidable.
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From what I understand of console sales cycles, Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft tend to lose money on their systems when they first come out. The price drops tend to create a flood in demand, selling more units. But I'd assume for all three that they know that, so as long as they end up in the black by the end of the system's lifespan they are fine with it.

Sorry, I typed that up wrong. I meant to say that there's no source saying that they WON'T be selling at a loss, as is normally the case. I was trying to make the point that there's no reputable source making the claim that extralife did:

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neither company anticipates selling this system at a loss.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:33 PM   #140
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AMD has two entirely separate campuses dedicated to each system, the two teams are under strict NDA's to avoid speaking with or contacting each other. Once these engineers go to work, they do it in a black box, but because they start with similar die sizes, power constraints, and silicon budgets, the designs are going to be somewhat similar.
they are not "somewhat similar." they are the exact same.

as for the "tradition" of selling at a loss, it's a fairly new tradition. Nintendo has never sold at a loss, for instance. I have read well founded speculation that neither Sony nor MS plan on selling at a loss this go round, but I'd have to go find links to back it up. the parts they are using are all essentially off the shelf. given bulk manufacturing discounts and all that, it is not hard to imagine a scenario in which a $400-$500 Xbone makes MS money. they lost an extraordinary amount of money brute forcing their way into the console business with the original Xbox. everyone involved in that original effort has either been fired or moved on. I don't think they are interesting in maintaining that kind of effort, especially now that they are hedging their bet with a TV wonderbox.

the point is that the traditional "leap" in graphical quality between console hardware generations essentially does not exist this time around. there are reasons for this.

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Old 05-24-2013, 05:39 PM   #141
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they are not "somewhat similar." they are the exact same.

as for the "tradition" of selling at a loss, it's a fairly new tradition. Nintendo has never sold at a loss, for instance. I have read well founded speculation that neither Sony nor MS plan on selling at a loss this go round, but I'd have to go find links to back it up. the parts they are using are all essentially off the shelf. given bulk manufacturing discounts and all that, it is not hard to imagine a scenario in which a $400-$500 Xbone makes MS money. they lost an extraordinary amount of money brute forcing their way into the console business with the original Xbox. everyone involved in that original effort has either been fired or moved on. I don't think they are interesting in maintaining that kind of effort, especially now that they are hedging their bet with a TV wonderbox.
Okay. You win, clearly 6 years of the most intelligent engineers in the world working away on details should be attributed to "the exact same" because they had a similar starting point and budget.

And on the note of selling at a loss, you're flat out wrong, the math is simple: target price point is still similar to last gen and yet the power consumption has gone up. In CE products this indicates an increase in the ambitiousness of the underlying technology relative to the time.

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Old 05-24-2013, 05:41 PM   #142
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no, I mean they are the exact same. the systems use the same processor, the same GPU, and the same x86 PC architecture. you cannot dispute this, because it is true. and not only is it true, but the capabilities of these systems will be outstripped by modest gaming PCs from the day they land on shelves. that has not historically been true.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:42 PM   #143
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:44 PM   #144
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no, I mean they are the exact same. the systems use the same processor, the same GPU, and the same x86 PC architecture. you cannot dispute this, because it is true.
They don't use the same processor, they don't use the same GPU. AMD and Intel both made x86 processors for decades in direct competition, no one called their product offerings the "exact same".

I can dispute what you say because what you say is misinformed and incorrect.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:52 PM   #145
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http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/14...-underwhelming



Radeon 7850's are going for around $170. 7870's as low as $215.

And any Core i5 would absolutely blow either console's CPU out of the water.
You keep comparing it to PC's and conclude that it will perform the same based on its specs. I'm not sure why you are doing that since it's not a PC. Consoles always overperform for their specs (or PC's underperform if you prefer), and I don't see any reason to think this generation will be any different.
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:44 PM   #146
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You keep comparing it to PC's and conclude that it will perform the same based on its specs. I'm not sure why you are doing that since it's not a PC.
well, technically, these consoles now are PCs. all they have going for them, relative to the power of comparable desktops, is that they are closed systems and thus will be optimized for. as far as performance is considered, that certainly is an advantage, but historically consoles have also been built on entirely different architecture from PCs, making direct comparisons much more useless than they will be going forward.
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:53 PM   #147
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They don't use the same processor, they don't use the same GPU. AMD and Intel both made x86 processors for decades in direct competition, no one called their product offerings the "exact same".

I can dispute what you say because what you say is misinformed and incorrect.
both systems use an 8-core 64-bit AMD Jaguar CPU with an AMD GPU of the same architecture on the die. they are so close to each other that if these were theoretically PC products launched by AMD or Nvida or Intel or whatever, they would both be released under the same brand. this information is widely available.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:55 PM   #148
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both systems use an 8-core 64-bit AMD Jaguar CPU with an AMD GPU of the same architecture on the die. they are so close to each other that if these were theoretically PC products launched by AMD or Nvida or Intel or whatever, they would both be released under the same brand. this information is widely available.
You're dancing around the points.

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neither company anticipates selling this system at a loss

and yes, of course either company could beat the other. they didn't, because they are colluding through AMD. they have the same CPU, the same GPU, and the same amount of RAM. Sony is clocking the CPU higher and using DDR5 instead of DDR3 for the RAM. they are also likely charging more.

this is the first time in 30 years of console gaming that competing systems have had architectures anywhere near alike. they are reskinned PCs with a slightly different philosophy in harware configuration. there is zero proprietary hardware in these boxes.
1.) You talked about collusion, my point was that both companies worked closely with separate AMD teams that operated in silo like atmospheres. They had somewhat similar resources and goals so the divergence in result was not great. Therefore, i'm providing the alternative reasoning to why the chips came out similar in design; an alternative that's much more likely than collusion.

1b.) There is plenty of propriety hardware in these boxes, even if you don't include their vastly different peripheral sets of kinect and eyetoy, and how insanely advanced they are, you're still looking at internals that are largely unconfirmed outside of Soc and ram. Even if we focus on only those two parts, the AMD chip designs are customized by both Sony and Microsoft extensively over a half decade of preparation. On the contrary these boxes are full of proprietary tech.


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they are not "somewhat similar." they are the exact same.

2.) You said they are "the exact same" - that is wrong. Similar is not the same. The inclusion of the on die ram on the Xbox erases your argument that they are the exact same. The layouts and architecture maybe similar but they are not the same, you don't need 200 top engineers on payroll working for 7 years on silicon for something that's the "exact same."

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no, I mean they are the exact same. the systems use the same processor, the same GPU, and the same x86 PC architecture. you cannot dispute this, because it is true. and not only is it true, but the capabilities of these systems will be outstripped by modest gaming PCs from the day they land on shelves. that has not historically been true.
3.) According to your logic of similar architecture = the "exact same," the GPU inside the PS3 (RSX) was just a modified G7series that was available at the exact same time on shelves, but with more horsepower.
The X360's Xenon was available within months in the form of x18series cards that packed a heftier punch and all the effects.
Heck, the original Xbox had an intel processor and Nvidia off the shelf graphics.

You can't compare products without paying attention to price and heat consumption.

The images below were from Crysis: released for PC 6 years ago, shortly after the PS3's launch date.



You could play that game half a decade ago on a HDTV or HD projector and get the game in full surround sound, provided you had the right components in your PC.

The idea that videogame consoles could beat PCs with innovative hardware designs is a myth perpetuated during the 3D era race between Sega, Sony, and Nintendo. PC's have always been home to the most horsepower.

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Old 05-24-2013, 08:58 PM   #149
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well, technically, these consoles now are PCs. all they have going for them, relative to the power of comparable desktops, is that they are closed systems and thus will be optimized for. as far as performance is considered, that certainly is an advantage, but historically consoles have also been built on entirely different architecture from PCs, making direct comparisons much more useless than they will be going forward.
Yeah, this is mostly what I would've said. In reality, what this switch to less proprietary platforms might accommodate is allowing another pc-centric player (Steam) to capture a big chunk of the enthusiast market.

It'll be easier than ever for developers to port their work to PC, since the all the hardware now speaks the same language. If someone creates an open hardware standard and content distribution system (sounds like Steam is working on both) they should have near-automatic developer support, and allow gamers to bring as much performance to the table as they can afford. Without pissing away cash on things they may not want, like Kinect. Or media content.

Microsoft should head them off at the pass and open up the Xbox software platform to their PC base. But they probably won't.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:48 PM   #150
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You can't compare products without paying attention to price and heat consumption.

The images below were from Crysis: released for PC 6 years ago, shortly after the PS3's launch date.
I said a modest off the shelf PC today would compete with if not outstrip a PS4/Xbone. A modest PC today could not make Crysis look like that, much less in 2007. When Crysis was released there was not a single consumer grade PC in existence that could run it at full settings in 1080p at even 30 FPS. In most ways, Crysis is still the most technically impressive game in existence from a raw power perspective. Only Crysis 3 and Metro Last Light can really compete. Of course, Crysis is also the least optimized video game ever developed.

As for the "myth" of console power, when the original Playstation came out consumer computers were barely capable running 3D video games in the slightest. It was not until 1996 (the PS launched in late 94) that PCs could reasonably compete. The PS2, and particularly the Xbox and Gamecube all outstripped mainstream PC 3D performance in 2000 and 2001. Prior to 3D, consoles were far more adept at gaming than comparable computers.

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