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Old 05-23-2013, 12:55 PM   #76
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Last generation Sony forced a convoluted architecture in an attempt to subsidize a modular CPU model with the Cell. The focus wasn't on games or making developer's lives easier.

In the end Sony's system had a far superior CPU to the X360, but a slightly inferior GPU, a larger OS footprint, and slightly less total memory (due to the X360 also using a form of embedded RAM). Developers are primarily PC based which is a GPU first base to build from, so every PS3 game had to be heavily re-optimized to push operations off to the Cell instead of the RSX, which in turn also required complex manipulation of the Cell's multiple processors.

Now they're both x86 silicon made by AMD/ATi, based on previous Radeon GCN chipsets. They both have their libraries built on Visual Studio. Sony already greatly improved their tools last generation, bridging much of the gap they had with MS at launch. This is a pretty apples to apples comparison and it doesn't take time on both kits to know that something with 50% more TFLOPs within the same architecture is going to be more powerful.
I haven't kept up on this console generation like I used to. I don't get too much into the TFLOPs arguments. If you want to go there, you should just man up and get a Rad 7970. You'll double up anything in this "next gen" generation.

I don't play on the cutting edge anymore though. Still rockin' my 4870. I rarely use my 360 for anything other than media (although its a different story with the kids )

Anyway, from what I've read of the new consoles, it's kinda disappointing that neither one seems to be pushing the performance envelope very hard. Especially considering they rode this last generation for 8 frickin' years. My old console got long in the tooth a few years back so I reinvested in PC gaming, even using 360 controllers to play PC games from the couch when I wanted the 'console' feel.

I think this console war will come down to Kinect, and how immersive/annoying it is, and whether that's worth any possible price premium. Outside the money, if it evolves into something more entertaining than it was, most people will be happy to take a theoretical GPU TFLOP hit in return.

I'm also interested to see what happens with 3d for 3dtv's and how well each platform supports that. I'd switch loyalties over something like that before I'd sweat the performance difference between two GPUs that realistically perform somewhere between entry-level and mid-range cards in the pc market.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:09 PM   #77
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PC gaming vs Console gaming. There's pros and cons to each. PC gaming gives you much more flexibility. There's free mods to many popular games you can download fro free. Not so much with Consoles. PC graphics can achieve greater looks but that comes at a price. My graphics card cost more then a PS3, lol. But consoles are nice if you want to just kick it on the couch and play on the big screen. Both are alive and well and to be honest, alot of people now have both. Almost all of my friends have both.
Now that the hardware platforms are nearly identical, it baffles me that Microsoft isn't opening up the xbox platform to pcs. They don't make any money on selling hardware anyway. Why not allow an xbox virtualized dashboard (or app) on adequately configured pc's? They could sell their best licensed content without forking over the hardware subsidy. And PC gamers could have the best of both worlds (while making M$ even more money)
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:33 PM   #78
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PC gaming vs Console gaming. There's pros and cons to each. PC gaming gives you much more flexibility. There's free mods to many popular games you can download fro free. Not so much with Consoles. PC graphics can achieve greater looks but that comes at a price. My graphics card cost more then a PS3, lol. But consoles are nice if you want to just kick it on the couch and play on the big screen. Both are alive and well and to be honest, alot of people now have both. Almost all of my friends have both.
It's fun to troll consoles though cuz they get all uppity.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:07 PM   #79
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My take on the hardware:

For the guys jumping up and down on the PS4 having much better "specs," not everything is in concrete yet, despite what you guys have read in some industry article written by speculating journalists. The architectures are somewhat similar yes, the PS4 does have a 33% or 50% (depending on what you use as the base) lead in "operations per cycle". But we don't know the clocks, or "cycles per second" of these systems. MS might clock the xbox one at 1Ghz and Sony might clock theirs at 800Mhz. The limitation here is power draw and heat. The Xbox one is already very big, and draws a lot of power (150w minimum, 220w powerbrick) - that's a lot more than the old xbox 360 which drew a maximum of 120w under load (ran hot and very loud); so clearly MS is going for something performance competitive. There's also arguments in the game development world that on die ram (the ESRAM) offers a small (15-20%) efficiency gain over GPUs that operate on a traditional cache. Anandtech has plenty of reliable and well written info on this, I'd stick to only information from that website, and avoid other sites that jump to conclusions far too quickly.

My take on the TV stuff:

This isn't just a fight against Sony, clearly, as many have pointed out, MS views itself as a content distributor, they've already turned "xbox" into a distribution brand for entertainment: see "xbox music" as the replacement for the zune music player.

My take on the Games:

Very little until E3, apparently.

My take on the new Kinect:

I saw a demo where they detected motion in a pitch black room with no light, and where they clearly locked in on a single person speaking with tons of intelligible sounds surrounding the speaker. It looks like you can have a loud party and speak to the xbox just fine, with little more than a whisper. Very impressive.

Stuffing it inside every box is the only way they'll get those "hardcore" games like Mass Effect to support motion control all the way through (no install base intersection issues). A great move to make sure home consoles have a differentiating factor besides raw power.

My take on online:

They want to make all games have the "persistence" and online features of MMO's and multiplayer games. 5 years down the road they want to be ready for cloud gaming where your home console is completely irrelevant (like Onlive, or Gaikai).


On what REALLY matters: Timing, pricing, and Content. Content. Content.

I don't own a Xbox 360, but if Microsoft's deal with the NFL is something crazy; where the xbox one has software that auto identifies players with jersey numbers on the field and some overlay comes up illustrating the auto-identified coverage and routes (like its madden)... And I get to draw x's and o's on my TV screen with my I-phone and do instant replay from my couch where i can zoom in on Peyton's signals or draw lines like I'm a TV announcer... Well then, I'm getting a freaking Xbox.

There's a lot of weird flexibility when you make the console a development platform and give it live TV. It's going to be a lot more capable than a DVR, you can't instantly upload DVR clips to youtube, those DVR's are not advanced enough, but a console is. You can take a touchdown pass and instantly encode-upload-play it on facebook if you want.

It all comes down to the content, the timing, and the pricing for most people. Pricing, of course is why people are complaining about used games. Well if they gave you a loyalty program that made game purchases cheaper and resell/trade ins rewarding enough, it won't be much of a problem if both systems banned traditional used game sales...

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Old 05-23-2013, 08:16 PM   #80
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Anyway, from what I've read of the new consoles, it's kinda disappointing that neither one seems to be pushing the performance envelope very hard. Especially considering they rode this last generation for 8 frickin' years.
There's only so much they can do while keeping it within a price range that people can actually afford. You can't expect them to come out with a $300-500 machine that rivals the specs of a $2000 gaming rig. Plus consoles always have a massive advantage in terms of software optimization.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:51 PM   #81
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You know what pissed me off the most about the conference? Activision thinks this: is next-gen.

Even though this:is current gen (PC though).
Why would that "piss you off"? You don't seriously think that this round of consoles is going to compete with high end PCs do you? How much are you expecting them to cost?



Talk about ridiculous expectations. They can call that next gen, that's fine. This is the next generation of consoles. It's not that difficult to grasp.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:52 PM   #82
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:57 PM   #83
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I think people will stick to brand. If you have an Xbox360, you will probably go with the XB1. If you had a PS/PS2/PS3, you will probably go PS4.

I'm going Sony because their exclusive games are some of my favorites (InFamous, Uncharted) and Sony will have Hulu and Amazon Prime and Netflix and sports packages. I dont think if you pick one or the other you are going to miss out on a "total entertainment" system.

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Old 05-23-2013, 09:57 PM   #84
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:58 PM   #85
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Why would that "piss you off"? You don't seriously think that this round of consoles is going to compete with high end PCs do you? How much are you expecting them to cost?



Talk about ridiculous expectations. They can call that next gen, that's fine. This is the next generation of consoles. It's not that difficult to grasp.
new consoles traditionally outstrip the capabilities of a reasonable PC for the first couple years of the console's lifespan. that is not the case this time, though Sony's strange 8GB of DDR5 ram design is unique.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:11 PM   #86
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new consoles traditionally outstrip the capabilities of a reasonable PC for the first couple years of the console's lifespan. that is not the case this time, though Sony's strange 8GB of DDR5 ram design is unique.
It's just not possible. The graphics card alone in my PC is $400. Crysis 3 isn't going to be looking that great at a high frame rate on a "reasonable PC."
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:18 PM   #87
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For you guys who are making fun of it as a TV watching system, don't be surprised if some top notch TV Series and programs are provided on the Xbox One first, before hitting HBO or any other network for the sheer amount of information they can capture in piloting shows on the xbox.

They can track heart beat and facial expression data, that's insanely powerful stuff for big networks investing all that money into their programs. They are going to have studies on your reactions to targeted TV commercials, etc. You sign an agreement for free content or a discount on a game, and boom MS starts selling off your facial expressions during programming. Stuff is going to be worth fortunes.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:21 PM   #88
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It's just not possible. The graphics card alone in my PC is $400. Crysis 3 isn't going to be looking that great at a high frame rate on a "reasonable PC."
Most consoles are sold at a loss for the first 2-3 years of their life cycle. That's how it's possible. Plus they are optimized to play games, they can use less power to create more performance.

Crysis 3 looks that good on my PC which I built in 2011 for $1200 and have only upgraded to graphics card to a radeon 7870 since then. I don't know what your definition of "reasonable" is, but I feel like that is reasonable.

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Old 05-23-2013, 10:33 PM   #89
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I wouldn't say 1200 dollars is reasonable, but I'm also fairly certain you could build a computer for 600 dollars that would run a game like Crysis 3 as well as the Xbone. the consoles will scale better over time given their RAM capabilities, 8 core processors, and general optimization from developers that don't have a choice, but from a day one perspective they are extremely underwhelming.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:11 PM   #90
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I wouldn't say 1200 dollars is reasonable, but I'm also fairly certain you could build a computer for 600 dollars that would run a game like Crysis 3 as well as the Xbone. the consoles will scale better over time given their RAM capabilities, 8 core processors, and general optimization from developers that don't have a choice, but from a day one perspective they are extremely underwhelming.
$600 is probably what a 2-year old, $1200 computer would be worth today. The CPU I have is like $100 at this point, GPU is $200 and those are retail prices, not wholesale like Microsoft and Sony are paying.

Edit: Looked it up, apparently I built it in 2009 at $1000. Many of my parts are discontinued, and I've since upgraded the RAM for $70 and the GPU for $220. If that can play Crysis 3 at high to very high settings at 1080p, both of these new consoles should have no issue.

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Old 05-24-2013, 06:02 AM   #91
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There's only so much they can do while keeping it within a price range that people can actually afford. You can't expect them to come out with a $300-500 machine that rivals the specs of a $2000 gaming rig. Plus consoles always have a massive advantage in terms of software optimization.
Yeah, but at least my recollection of the last gen is they were fairly close to the edge vs what you could do with PC at the time.

Right now we're looking at "next gen" consoles that would be flat outperformed by a $150-$200 pc graphics card.

Seriously, I've got a 4+ year old graphics card that rivals what these "next gen" consoles can do.

Part of it is that progress in GPUs has slowed. But the other part is that these consoles aren't pushing nearly as hard on performance as they could be.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/foru...nreal-Engine-4
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:41 AM   #92
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As a current xbox 360 owner, (who has red ringed 3 times) I am not impressed at all with the Xbox one and all of the news coming out about it. Is this really all they have? It is kind of a buzz kill, and it won't be enough to push me into spending all that money to buy a new console, games, controllers, ect. I haven't owned a PS since the original, but I think I would be much more likely to buy the PS4 just based off what I've read on this thread. Both of my smart TV's have these features that allow you to watch netflix, hulu, ect. I know personally, I want a GAMING CONSOLE, not some POS TV interface/gaming console that I have to subscribe to.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:35 AM   #93
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As a current xbox 360 owner, (who has red ringed 3 times) I am not impressed at all with the Xbox one and all of the news coming out about it. Is this really all they have? It is kind of a buzz kill, and it won't be enough to push me into spending all that money to buy a new console, games, controllers, ect. I haven't owned a PS since the original, but I think I would be much more likely to buy the PS4 just based off what I've read on this thread. Both of my smart TV's have these features that allow you to watch netflix, hulu, ect. I know personally, I want a GAMING CONSOLE, not some POS TV interface/gaming console that I have to subscribe to.
I hear ya. But to be honest, I think that's just the direction consoles are going. True hardcore gamers are just going to have to move more to PC I think. Some enterprising company could build pc's that are more living room friendly (for people not inclined to build their own), and become the pure gamer's best friend.

But I don't blame Microsoft and Sony for chasing the content distribution business. Microsoft's real mistake might be mandatory kinect. But maybe they'll wow me. The last one certainly didn't.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:55 AM   #94
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For you guys who are making fun of it as a TV watching system, don't be surprised if some top notch TV Series and programs are provided on the Xbox One first, before hitting HBO or any other network for the sheer amount of information they can capture in piloting shows on the xbox.

They can track heart beat and facial expression data, that's insanely powerful stuff for big networks investing all that money into their programs. They are going to have studies on your reactions to targeted TV commercials, etc. You sign an agreement for free content or a discount on a game, and boom MS starts selling off your facial expressions during programming. Stuff is going to be worth fortunes.
You will continue to see shows (like House of Cards and others) become exclusives on things like Netflix and other streamable TV/Video applications, but there won't be any TV shows that are exclusive to the XBOX. Why would anyone want to limit themselves to the amount of viewers they can get? How would they adequately predict the target audience for a show based on one set of viewers alone?
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:01 AM   #95
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You will continue to see shows (like House of Cards and others) become exclusives on things like Netflix and other streamable TV/Video applications, but there won't be any TV shows that are exclusive to the XBOX. Why would anyone want to limit themselves to the amount of viewers they can get? How would they adequately predict the target audience for a show based on one set of viewers alone?
Netflix has around 30 million subscribers. XBL already has more than 40. Without even really dabbling in original (video) content.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:04 AM   #96
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Most consoles are sold at a loss for the first 2-3 years of their life cycle. That's how it's possible. Plus they are optimized to play games, they can use less power to create more performance.

Crysis 3 looks that good on my PC which I built in 2011 for $1200 and have only upgraded to graphics card to a radeon 7870 since then. I don't know what your definition of "reasonable" is, but I feel like that is reasonable.
The new consoles will outperform what you just described easily.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:06 AM   #97
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Netflix has around 30 million subscribers. XBL already has more than 40. Without even really dabbling in original (video) content.
Netflix and XBOX Live are two completely different things. Most people are on XBOX Live to be able to play games online. The more apt comparison would be how many XBOX owners are using the 360 to stream Netflix and other applications, because there are going to be a lot of people who use the Live service to game, but aren't members of places that stream TVs and shows.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:16 AM   #98
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Netflix and XBOX Live are two completely different things. Most people are on XBOX Live to be able to play games online. The more apt comparison would be how many XBOX owners are using the 360 to stream Netflix and other applications, because there are going to be a lot of people who use the Live service to game, but aren't members of places that stream TVs and shows.
That's not really a fair comparison. To stream Netflix on XBox, you have to own both XBL and Netflix. Think about the inverse. If the same content were available on XBL, do you think anyone with an Xbox would still pay Netflix to get it?

XBL not only has more subscribers, but far more streaming-ready devices in place than Netflix has subscribers. It would be a huge streaming media player instantaneously.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:17 AM   #99
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I'm willing to bet that the PC that they are using is $4000 or so. This is Epic we are talking about after all.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:18 AM   #100
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Netflix and XBOX Live are two completely different things. Most people are on XBOX Live to be able to play games online. The more apt comparison would be how many XBOX owners are using the 360 to stream Netflix and other applications, because there are going to be a lot of people who use the Live service to game, but aren't members of places that stream TVs and shows.
It was announced that Xbox live would provide its own content, just like Netflix. I believe that was reference
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