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Old 05-07-2013, 01:57 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever View Post
they have the cap space, and trade bait necessary to make that happen. it just depends on whether the Kroenke's are content to sit back and have a really deep no stars team that flames out in the playoffs. it is a little like the Rockies situation for the Nuggets now. the regular season is great, they win at a 95% rate at home, and sell a **** load of ticket, and really the fans don't expect Denver to win or really compete for a championship. so laying out money for superstars isn't necessary because the fans don't expect to win much anyway. just like the Rockies. why spend a fortune when ticket sales are great even for a typically terrible team.
Business wise I expect them to follow Rockies plan. Not enough fans care to voice their displeasure or not show up to push change. They will play the young team development 57 win season card for next year only minor moves.

While its not life or death for me. I feel for the real diehards here that deserve so much more from the Nuggets org be Bronco like not Rockies like.

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Old 05-07-2013, 02:17 PM   #352
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They're coming up on a real dilemma here as at some point the excuse of being young and needing to develop is going to become outdated. The elephant in the room at Pepsi Center is that the Nuggets lost to a younger team with less playoff experience than they have.

When Masai had to trade Melo, he and Josh made the decision they wanted to remain competitive and try an unconventional method to succeed in a small market. Instead of going the Cleveland route of getting picks in exchange for the player and heading back into the lottery, they dealt for a group of good players. The smart thing Masai did was he locked up all of those assets to very cap-friendly deals so when the new luxury tax kicks in next year and teams will have to start blowing up their rosters, Denver will be in great shape. The bad thing is they're limited in their ability to advance the roster. They can make moves similar to the Iguodala trade but they're obviously too good to be in the lottery. In one sense they appear worlds ahead of Cleveland, but with Kyrie Irving and Tristian Thompson as bases- they could be a title team if LeBron returns in 2015. It's just unlikely Denver will be able to add an A player, in a league where it seems to take 2-3 A players to win a title.

Simply put, the Nuggets are built for the regular season- in every sense. A deep roster of 9-10 guys plays very well over an 82-game grind. They play an up-tempo game and win a lot of home games simply based on scheduling as they catch teams coming into Denver who inevitably don't have the stamina to keep up that type of pace.

Problem is once you get into the playoffs, those strengths are weakened. It turns into a possession-by-possession grind in the half-court where fatigue is irrelevant and execution is key. That's where star players are so key, not only can you run plays for them but they get the benefit of the whistle. Until a player receives the respect of the officials as a star, it's tough to win in the playoffs. Sure Ty Lawson can continue getting better, but will referees give him the same benefit of the doubt they do LeBron or Durant?

That's what puts them in such a tough situation. I could see them winning 60 games next season, but I'm still not sure they can get out of the first round. That's a staggering statement in that I'm simply questioning their ability to win one round, not a championship. With that, they're a business and I respect Kroenke's desire to put out a competitive regular season product to fill seats and get playoff revenue versus taking a step back as a cellar dweller in hopes of landing a new franchise player. But it sucks for those wanting to see Denver win a championship.
meh, it's coaching, plain and simple. Dump Karl, bring in a coach who can excel in the post season when it really matters. The Warriors got a coach (former Nuggets player) who got them to, yah know, play better in the post season.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:21 PM   #353
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A few days old but just saw this today:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...estions-part-1
oh, btw, grantland sucks. Oh, another btw, George Karl was the coach of the Seattle team that lost to Denver in the 1994 playoffs when Seattle was heavily favored and had a lot of talent (Shawn Kemp anyone?).

but grantland sucks. I still lol at their prognistication of how the Broncos were gonna do worse with Manning than with TT because of some dumbass formula some geek fart at grantland made up. Total and utter BS.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:48 PM   #354
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I posted this on another site. Here is my feeling on GK:

I like GK and am personally pulling for him. I like that he is sort of anti-establishment. He is kind of the “Hoosiers” at heart coach – trying to win on the biggest stage in a pure form of basketball. I admire that. Given that – he’s running out of excuses.

I don’t really buy into the argument that if you fire GK, you are a perennial loser for the next 10 years. That’s a straw-man’s argument. For all we know, Kronke could hire the next great coach who could just as easily be a perennial winner but with rings. Every great coach starts out as a rookie coach somewhere. I do believe many of those great coaches are fortunate to have the right mix of players. At the right time and place. Would Phil Jackson have these rings without Michael & Pippen or Kobe & Shaq? What would Popovich be without Duncan, Ginobli and Parker?

Karl has been fortunate to have a front office for the past 10 years committed to winning albeit making mistakes in doing so. While that front office has changed faces a few times and has made some questionable moves (Kenyon Martin contract etc.) they have at least provided him with talent and attempted to improve the roster even if the move backfires.

I’ll credit Karl that he has consistently got his team to perform at a level that gets them into the playoffs. I’ll also credit the front office has consistently provided him talent good enough to get to the playoffs. While Karl has been fortunate to have the talent provided to him, we can’t argue how unfortunate he’s also been down the stretch in these 10 years. He’s had player injuries, bad first round matchups, cancer, and arguably a roster full of mental midgets (Kenyon, Birdman, JR, etc.).

Karl did a solid job once again this year – in fact, arguably his best job as a Denver coach. It was obvious this was a roster he has longed for. While without a so-called superstar, he excelled with a roster full of talent.

However, his downfalls are the same downfalls that have plagued him the past 10 years and are well documented.
-He has a doghouse that is nearly impossible to get out of. It seems once you are in, it takes an injury to get you out.
-He also has favorites that seemingly cannot play themselves into the doghouse. In fact, he trusts his favorites to a fault and seems to have a blind eye.
-If we can see this, the players can too. In fact, I would find discouraging to players and tough to get that extra out of them when needed (motivation).
-I appreciate his realism with the schedule and ebb and flow of the NBA – but sometimes he says things that are a “head scratcher” which seem like an out if his team loses (motivation).
- Considering his handle on the ebb and flow of a regular season, I find it odd that he doesn’t use these “off” nights to get his young guys more experience so they can be counted on later (experience).
- He needs to coach both sides of the ball. Going heavy defense is great and I like the freedom he employs during the season. However to take it to the next level and get a ring, he’s going to have to have to add a bit more structure on offense – including inbounds plays (coaching).
-Sometime his rotations simply make no sense. I often wonder if he’s watching the same game (coaching).

I believe the combination of talent and coaching gets him the regular season wins. However, the flaws listed above are exposed once the playoffs arrive. His team seeming can’t take it to the next level because they haven’t been coached to. In order for his players to reach the next level, Karl will have to lead them there by addressing his flaws first and foremost.

If he can do that, his team will follow and we will see something amazing. I am pulling for him.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:48 PM   #355
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I posted this on another site. Here is my feeling on GK:

I like GK and am personally pulling for him. I like that he is sort of anti-establishment. He is kind of the “Hoosiers” at heart coach – trying to win on the biggest stage in a pure form of basketball. I admire that. Given that – he’s running out of excuses.

I don’t really buy into the argument that if you fire GK, you are a perennial loser for the next 10 years. That’s a straw-man’s argument. For all we know, Kronke could hire the next great coach who could just as easily be a perennial winner but with rings. Every great coach starts out as a rookie coach somewhere. I do believe many of those great coaches are fortunate to have the right mix of players. At the right time and place. Would Phil Jackson have these rings without Michael & Pippen or Kobe & Shaq? What would Popovich be without Duncan, Ginobli and Parker?

Karl has been fortunate to have a front office for the past 10 years committed to winning albeit making mistakes in doing so. While that front office has changed faces a few times and has made some questionable moves (Kenyon Martin contract etc.) they have at least provided him with talent and attempted to improve the roster even if the move backfires.

I’ll credit Karl that he has consistently got his team to perform at a level that gets them into the playoffs. I’ll also credit the front office has consistently provided him talent good enough to get to the playoffs. While Karl has been fortunate to have the talent provided to him, we can’t argue how unfortunate he’s also been down the stretch in these 10 years. He’s had player injuries, bad first round matchups, cancer, and arguably a roster full of mental midgets (Kenyon, Birdman, JR, etc.).

Karl did a solid job once again this year – in fact, arguably his best job as a Denver coach. It was obvious this was a roster he has longed for. While without a so-called superstar, he excelled with a roster full of talent.

However, his downfalls are the same downfalls that have plagued him the past 10 years and are well documented.
-He has a doghouse that is nearly impossible to get out of. It seems once you are in, it takes an injury to get you out.
-He also has favorites that seemingly cannot play themselves into the doghouse. In fact, he trusts his favorites to a fault and seems to have a blind eye.
-If we can see this, the players can too. In fact, I would find discouraging to players and tough to get that extra out of them when needed (motivation).
-I appreciate his realism with the schedule and ebb and flow of the NBA – but sometimes he says things that are a “head scratcher” which seem like an out if his team loses (motivation).
- Considering his handle on the ebb and flow of a regular season, I find it odd that he doesn’t use these “off” nights to get his young guys more experience so they can be counted on later (experience).
- He needs to coach both sides of the ball. Going heavy defense is great and I like the freedom he employs during the season. However to take it to the next level and get a ring, he’s going to have to have to add a bit more structure on offense – including inbounds plays (coaching).
-Sometime his rotations simply make no sense. I often wonder if he’s watching the same game (coaching).

I believe the combination of talent and coaching gets him the regular season wins. However, the flaws listed above are exposed once the playoffs arrive. His team seeming can’t take it to the next level because they haven’t been coached to. In order for his players to reach the next level, Karl will have to lead them there by addressing his flaws first and foremost.

If he can do that, his team will follow and we will see something amazing. I am pulling for him.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:51 PM   #356
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George Karl is the NBA version of Marty Schottenheimer. he needs to be replaced. give him a front office position with the Nuggets and bring in a real coach.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:56 PM   #357
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the Rockies have two superstars though, Tulo and Cargo.
Ulbaldo was their franchise guy but he is just a regular pitcher now.

eventually the fans will stop paying money to see the team. like they're doing with the Avs because the Kroenke's won't spend on the team or make good hires.
the Rockies, have let a lot of really good talent get away or trade it away rather than pay for it. if they start tanking this season and they are out of playoff contention by the trade deadline, i guarantee you CarGo is on the trade block and Tulo possibly as well.

Tulo is a good player, but he is a guy they paid too much way too early. he is not a very good leader, plus he can't stay on the field. i have a bet with a friend that i will pay for 20 games next season, if Tulo can play 140 games or more this season. CarGo got paid too early also. the team is so backwards in they either won't pay a star player and trade or let him walk or they pay him before it is necessary to pay.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:23 PM   #358
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the Rockies, have let a lot of really good talent get away or trade it away rather than pay for it. if they start tanking this season and they are out of playoff contention by the trade deadline, i guarantee you CarGo is on the trade block and Tulo possibly as well.

Tulo is a good player, but he is a guy they paid too much way too early. he is not a very good leader, plus he can't stay on the field. i have a bet with a friend that i will pay for 20 games next season, if Tulo can play 140 games or more this season. CarGo got paid too early also. the team is so backwards in they either won't pay a star player and trade or let him walk or they pay him before it is necessary to pay.
they pay them early to avoid paying more later or letting it get to FA.
basically as a way to appease the fans and keep them coming.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:50 PM   #359
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the Rockies, have let a lot of really good talent get away or trade it away rather than pay for it. if they start tanking this season and they are out of playoff contention by the trade deadline, i guarantee you CarGo is on the trade block and Tulo possibly as well.

Tulo is a good player, but he is a guy they paid too much way too early. he is not a very good leader, plus he can't stay on the field. i have a bet with a friend that i will pay for 20 games next season, if Tulo can play 140 games or more this season. CarGo got paid too early also. the team is so backwards in they either won't pay a star player and trade or let him walk or they pay him before it is necessary to pay.
I called out the Tulo contract the moment it happened. I said it was stoooopid. The friggen rockies are joke with Dan O'Dowd running the show, what a clown.
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:06 PM   #360
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George Karl is the NBA version of Marty Schottenheimer. he needs to be replaced. give him a front office position with the Nuggets and bring in a real coach.
And what if he is replaced by the NBA version of Norv Turner?
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:15 PM   #361
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they pay them early to avoid paying more later or letting it get to FA.
basically as a way to appease the fans and keep them coming.
they pay players too early or pay the wrong players, then it blows up in their faces and they use them as examples of why they won't pay top dollar anymore. look at the Neagle or Hampton moves. paid big money for free agents and then they flamed out and the owners decided no more big money deals for pitchers. they let Holliday walk and he has been a great player outside of Colorado. they pay Tulo and he has 1 good season for every terrible season. CarGo got paid but has been wildly inconsistent.

i understand paying early in hopes of a cheaper long term deal, but you also need to wait long enough to make sure that player is worth a long term commitment. Tulo so far hasn't shown he is worth big money on a long term deal and he got a big money offer after 1 full season. sure it was a good season but it was the biggest contract ever given to a guy with that little time in the majors. it wasn't necessary yet. and he followed that deal up by being in and out of the lineup in 08, a good year in 09 missing 40 games in 10 and then got a new extension when he had 3 years left on his previous deal after having only 4 years of full time experience in the majors 2 of which were mediocre and injury filled. in 11 he had his best year and followed that up by missing over 2/3 of the season in 12. a guy making upwards of 175 million needs to be much better. you can guarantee the majority of teams wouldn't have given him these huge deals. for every 1 good season he has 1 terrible season.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #362
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they pay players too early or pay the wrong players, then it blows up in their faces and they use them as examples of why they won't pay top dollar anymore. look at the Neagle or Hampton moves. paid big money for free agents and then they flamed out and the owners decided no more big money deals for pitchers. they let Holliday walk and he has been a great player outside of Colorado. they pay Tulo and he has 1 good season for every terrible season. CarGo got paid but has been wildly inconsistent.

i understand paying early in hopes of a cheaper long term deal, but you also need to wait long enough to make sure that player is worth a long term commitment. Tulo so far hasn't shown he is worth big money on a long term deal and he got a big money offer after 1 full season. sure it was a good season but it was the biggest contract ever given to a guy with that little time in the majors. it wasn't necessary yet. and he followed that deal up by being in and out of the lineup in 08, a good year in 09 missing 40 games in 10 and then got a new extension when he had 3 years left on his previous deal after having only 4 years of full time experience in the majors 2 of which were mediocre and injury filled. in 11 he had his best year and followed that up by missing over 2/3 of the season in 12. a guy making upwards of 175 million needs to be much better. you can guarantee the majority of teams wouldn't have given him these huge deals. for every 1 good season he has 1 terrible season.
that made me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
those deals were horrendous.
this is partially why the Yanks have a club rule of not signing players to extensions before their contract is over. they want to see multiple seasons of production before they pay you. they've broken it 2 times i believe, once for Cano and once on another player i can't remember.

but it's going to happen more and more where teams lock up players early. with the new tv revenue coming in most teams are not going to let their players get to FA.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:32 PM   #363
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George Karl coach of the year.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/92...nba-coach-year
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:46 PM   #364
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oh, btw, grantland sucks. Oh, another btw, George Karl was the coach of the Seattle team that lost to Denver in the 1994 playoffs when Seattle was heavily favored and had a lot of talent (Shawn Kemp anyone?).
lol at dopes like you who think every site/station/journalist/publication "sucks" because they don't always have the same opinions as you and don't always get everything right.

Oh, and if you read my post after the one you quoted you'll note that Grantland mentioned that Karl coached that Seattle team you ****ing moron.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:01 PM   #365
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well it was nice knowing you George. the last several winners of this award have wound up looking for work within 2 years of getting it.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:53 PM   #366
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Coach of the year and you guys are calling for his head, You guys are killing me.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:28 PM   #367
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Coach of the year and you guys are calling for his head, You guys are killing me.
I think only a couple people are calling for his head this year. Most want him to play out his contract.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:30 PM   #368
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the Rockies, have let a lot of really good talent get away or trade it away rather than pay for it. if they start tanking this season and they are out of playoff contention by the trade deadline, i guarantee you CarGo is on the trade block and Tulo possibly as well.

Tulo is a good player, but he is a guy they paid too much way too early. he is not a very good leader, plus he can't stay on the field. i have a bet with a friend that i will pay for 20 games next season, if Tulo can play 140 games or more this season. CarGo got paid too early also. the team is so backwards in they either won't pay a star player and trade or let him walk or they pay him before it is necessary to pay.
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I called out the Tulo contract the moment it happened. I said it was stoooopid. The friggen rockies are joke with Dan O'Dowd running the show, what a clown.
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they pay players too early or pay the wrong players, then it blows up in their faces and they use them as examples of why they won't pay top dollar anymore. look at the Neagle or Hampton moves. paid big money for free agents and then they flamed out and the owners decided no more big money deals for pitchers. they let Holliday walk and he has been a great player outside of Colorado. they pay Tulo and he has 1 good season for every terrible season. CarGo got paid but has been wildly inconsistent.

i understand paying early in hopes of a cheaper long term deal, but you also need to wait long enough to make sure that player is worth a long term commitment. Tulo so far hasn't shown he is worth big money on a long term deal and he got a big money offer after 1 full season. sure it was a good season but it was the biggest contract ever given to a guy with that little time in the majors. it wasn't necessary yet. and he followed that deal up by being in and out of the lineup in 08, a good year in 09 missing 40 games in 10 and then got a new extension when he had 3 years left on his previous deal after having only 4 years of full time experience in the majors 2 of which were mediocre and injury filled. in 11 he had his best year and followed that up by missing over 2/3 of the season in 12. a guy making upwards of 175 million needs to be much better. you can guarantee the majority of teams wouldn't have given him these huge deals. for every 1 good season he has 1 terrible season.

Well, Tulo is arguably the best SS in the game today. He already has a 1.9 WAR for the season, leading all SS in hitting this season. The only thing down on him is he's had some unfortunate injuries.
I guarantee you he'd be offered a huge contract, absolutely guaranteed. You're a fool if you think otherwise, all but two of his years he's had a WAR of over 6 for the season.
He's also a terrific leader, and a catalyst for the Rockies 2007 season.

As for CarGo, same thing almost. He's a top player at his position that has 5 Tools. Remember, he was a part of the Holliday trade that also brough Huston Street to Denver. To me, it worked out for the Rockies because CarGo developed into an All Star OF.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:16 PM   #369
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I called out the Tulo contract the moment it happened. I said it was stoooopid. The friggen rockies are joke with Dan O'Dowd running the show, what a clown.
Tulo is the best player in the league at arguably the most important position in the lineup.

His salary ranks 103rd in baseball.

Other than that, you're right - what a "stoooopid" deal.

People are funny. They complain that the Rockies don't spend enough money. But then, the Rockies go and lock down their best players to long-term deals, and people complain that they aren't spending wisely.

Tell me this. Where would you rather they spent the $10 million/year they're giving Tulo?
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:29 PM   #370
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Well, Tulo is arguably the best SS in the game today. He already has a 1.9 WAR for the season, leading all SS in hitting this season. The only thing down on him is he's had some unfortunate injuries.
I guarantee you he'd be offered a huge contract, absolutely guaranteed. You're a fool if you think otherwise, all but two of his years he's had a WAR of over 6 for the season.
He's also a terrific leader, and a catalyst for the Rockies 2007 season.

As for CarGo, same thing almost. He's a top player at his position that has 5 Tools. Remember, he was a part of the Holliday trade that also brough Huston Street to Denver. To me, it worked out for the Rockies because CarGo developed into an All Star OF.
i'm not saying it is bad to have paid them. i am saying they got paid too soon. CarGo for all his talent continues to have consistency issues. Tulo is up and down on a year to year basis depending on injuries. for almost 200 million he should be in the lineup just about every game. he needs to average 150 games played a year. i understand days off to keep fresh, but his injuries keep him out dozens of games at a time.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:30 PM   #371
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Tulo is the best player in the league at arguably the most important position in the lineup.

His salary ranks 103rd in baseball.

Other than that, you're right - what a "stoooopid" deal.

People are funny. They complain that the Rockies don't spend enough money. But then, the Rockies go and lock down their best players to long-term deals, and people complain that they aren't spending wisely.

Tell me this. Where would you rather they spent the $10 million/year they're giving Tulo?
PITCHING!!
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:30 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by DomCasual View Post
Tulo is the best player in the league at arguably the most important position in the lineup.

His salary ranks 103rd in baseball.

Other than that, you're right - what a "stoooopid" deal.

People are funny. They complain that the Rockies don't spend enough money. But then, the Rockies go and lock down their best players to long-term deals, and people complain that they aren't spending wisely.

Tell me this. Where would you rather they spent the $10 million/year they're giving Tulo?
Locking up Tulo and Cargo long term was the best thing they could do. Also, Rutlege, Arenado, Fowler, Young, Rosario make the everday lineup potentially pretty damn good.

The pitching was always what pissed me off about them. As well as the constant Coors Field excuses. This year the starting pitching has held up pretty well. Hopefully they can last the year and be decent, and Chatwood can come up and dominate.

Last edited by spdirty; 05-08-2013 at 08:34 PM..
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:35 PM   #373
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I wouldn't worry as much if I was a nugs fan now. Warriors are the best team in the league.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:17 PM   #374
bigbucks24
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well it was nice knowing you George. the last several winners of this award have wound up looking for work within 2 years of getting it.

What?

2009–10 Scott Brooks Oklahoma City Thunder
2010–11 Tom Thibodeau Chicago Bulls
2011–12 Gregg Popovich San Antonio Spurs
2012–13 George Karl Denver Nuggets
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:28 PM   #375
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PITCHING!!
Okay. Like who? What pitchers have they passed on? Throwing all that money at Hampton and Neagle set the franchise back at least five years. But there have been other pitching flame-outs, as well. The only guys that have really worked, from a free agency perspective, have been guys looking for a one-year shot to reclaim their careers.

Here are MLB pitchers who are currently within plus or minus $1 million of Tulo's salary:

Mark Buehrle
Clayton Kershaw
Jorge De La Rosa
Chad Billingsly
Chris Carpenter
Matt Garza
David Price
Kyle Lohse
Gavin Floyd
Jon Lester
Yu Darvish (not taking into account what they had to pay to buy his rights)
Anibal Sanchez
Tim Hudson
Jake Westbrook

Look at that list. Who on that list is more valuable to his team than Tulo is to the Rockies?

Tulo's been injured, obviously. That's the one mitigating factor. But look at the crap that's on that list? Paying that much for pitching is a scary prospect; and that's not taking into account the head games from pitching half your games at Coors Field.

I think the latest approach to building the roster can work. The current lineup is scary - they can hit against anyone, anywhere. The bullpen is about as good as it gets. The starting pitching is obviously well below average. The only hope they have of staying in contention is to have Pomeranz/Friedrich/etc step up, or to hang around until the trade deadline so that the team can justify renting an arm or two.
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