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Old 05-01-2013, 10:24 AM   #151
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This pick reminds me of another 3rd rd CB pick....Karl Paymah.

Good size\speed #s. Considered aggresive at the POA. Questionable instincts. Considered a reach.

I just hope that Med is as wrong with Webster as he was with Paymah.
I liked the fact they went after 3 CB's in that draft and picked up Brandon Browner in UDFA, and I wanted to like all three of them. Paymah was a press CB coming out, and played very little Zone at WSU. He just did not fit in DEN's scheme very well, and he never learned the techniques to play at the NFL level. He could not learn to play tight without grabbing and clutching downfield. In some ways, he reminds me of Webster physically, but he was a press Man CB coming out, and he had better instincts for man coverage.

I am not sure how I was wrong about Paymah though. Just like Webster, I wanted all those guys to make the CB position better since they had been rolling with 2 UDFA's in Kelly Herndon and Lenny Walls before the Champ Trade. I thought Paymah was the most raw guy of the three, and he proved not to be able to translate to the NFL. Damn Brandon Marshall though for taking Darrent too soon
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:00 AM   #152
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I liked the fact they went after 3 CB's in that draft and picked up Brandon Browner in UDFA, and I wanted to like all three of them. Paymah was a press CB coming out, and played very little Zone at WSU. He just did not fit in DEN's scheme very well, and he never learned the techniques to play at the NFL level. He could not learn to play tight without grabbing and clutching downfield. In some ways, he reminds me of Webster physically, but he was a press Man CB coming out, and he had better instincts for man coverage.

I am not sure how I was wrong about Paymah though. Just like Webster, I wanted all those guys to make the CB position better since they had been rolling with 2 UDFA's in Kelly Herndon and Lenny Walls before the Champ Trade. I thought Paymah was the most raw guy of the three, and he proved not to be able to translate to the NFL. Damn Brandon Marshall though for taking Darrent too soon
I want you to be wrong on SOMETHING! Actually, my recollection was that you were always higher on Paymah during his post draft evaluation than you were on Foxworth.

Interesting only in that Websters game reminded me vaguely of Paymahs and I hope that Webster’s career arc has a higher trajectory.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:34 PM   #153
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I am not sure how I was wrong about Paymah though. Just like Webster, I wanted all those guys to make the CB position better since they had been rolling with 2 UDFA's in Kelly Herndon and Lenny Walls before the Champ Trade. I thought Paymah was the most raw guy of the three, and he proved not to be able to translate to the NFL. Damn Brandon Marshall though for taking Darrent too soon
I seem to remember Shannahan talking to a reporter about Paymah in his 2nd or 3rd year. He was asked why Paymah was slow to "get it", or something like that.

Shanny said something to the effect that Paymah has all the tools, but displayed "zero work ethic" in his rookie year. I remember him emphazising the term "zero". It surprised me because Shanny was unusually frank in the interview. No coach's double talk this time.

I am not sure that will be much of a problem with Webster.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:19 PM   #154
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What 24champ posted was actually something I sent him on FB and told him to post for me.

(A) I never said the drafts by Elway were failures, I just stated that I expect more than one rookie from a draft class to make a start that same year. Wolfe was the only one. Sure, we got some role players who did well, but even with this team being quality, I expect more.

(B) It is almost impossible to argue we haven't mortgaged valued in rounds 2-4. Trading down, only to trade up for questionable players and people who aren't even contributing. I'm sorry. Second and third round picks should be used on players who contribute immediately. Webster might pan out down the road, but blowing a third on a guy who is going to be a special teams relegate is dumb. Just like blowing a second on Osweiler when we had other need was dumb.

Beeeewrr.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:19 PM   #155
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What 24champ posted was actually something I sent him on FB and told him to post for me.

(A) I never said the drafts by Elway were failures, I just stated that I expect more than one rookie from a draft class to make a start that same year. Wolfe was the only one. Sure, we got some role players who did well, but even with this team being quality, I expect more.

(B) It is almost impossible to argue we haven't mortgaged valued in rounds 2-4. Trading down, only to trade up for questionable players and people who aren't even contributing. I'm sorry. Second and third round picks should be used on players who contribute immediately. Webster might pan out down the road, but blowing a third on a guy who is going to be a special teams relegate is dumb. Just like blowing a second on Osweiler when we had other need was dumb.

Beeeewrr.
So I would assume you also think the Packers drafting Aaron Rodgers when they already had Favre was dumb, yes?

Just think of how good they would be with a stud WLB though instead
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:28 PM   #156
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So I would assume you also think the Packers drafting Aaron Rodgers when they already had Favre was dumb, yes?

Just think of how good they would be with a stud WLB though instead
Aaron Rodgers was a projected Top 10 selection. Green Bay didn't have very many other pressing needs on the team. Denver did have needs last year they could have addressed at 58. The situation isn't nearly as comparable as you would like to make it be. If Denver was in the market for a back-up QB, they could have had Kirk Cousins later.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:47 PM   #157
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Aaron Rodgers was a projected Top 10 selection. Green Bay didn't have very many other pressing needs on the team. Denver did have needs last year they could have addressed at 58. The situation isn't nearly as comparable as you would like to make it be. If Denver was in the market for a back-up QB, they could have had Kirk Cousins later.
but then think of the potential linebackers they would of missed out on with that 4th round pick

My point is that qb far and away trumps every position, it doesnt matter how many "needs" you fill if you dont have a qb

GB had needs, they were not some dynasty
They then went on to win a SB with the guy they spent a first on who had to sit for 3 years

I just cant criticize a team for upgrading the qb position
As someone mentioned earlier about how long we have gone since Elway before getting another elite qb
It is hard to find one, I would rather overspend to ensure we have a good qb than have to settle for backups and retreads because our top picks could have been better spent filling "immediate needs"
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #158
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I've said it a million times.

We signed Manning. That means you don't need to use a high pick on a QB. You get a FA to back him up and use a mid-round / late-round pick pick on developing a guy.

For a team who consistently talks about being one or two players away and then uses their second round pick on a QB. . . lol. Bull****. "BPA" my ass. I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. I want Denver to start getting players in the second through fourth rounds that do more than pinch hit every once and a while. I don't expect fourth rounders to be starters, but I do expect second and third round picks to contribute more than they have.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:02 PM   #159
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I've said it a million times.

We signed Manning. That means you don't need to use a high pick on a QB. You get a FA to back him up and use a mid-round / late-round pick pick on developing a guy.

For a team who consistently talks about being one or two players away and then uses their second round pick on a QB. . . lol. Bull****. "BPA" my ass. I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. I want Denver to start getting players in the second through fourth rounds that do more than pinch hit every once and a while. I don't expect fourth rounders to be starters, but I do expect second and third round picks to contribute more than they have.
Yeah except late round guys dont win SBs like high rounders
Just take a look a the recent SB winners and how they addressed the qb position

I am not suggesting Denver spend a second on a qb every year, but I dont think one can say it was a bad pick at the moment when we did not have a QBOTF on the roster

I know some on here think we need to go all in for the next couple years, but you do want to have a plan in place when Manning retires and not have to start from scratch
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:13 PM   #160
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Webster might pan out down the road, but blowing a third on a guy who is going to be a special teams relegate is dumb.
What other CB did you want at #90?
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:44 PM   #161
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What other CB did you want at #90?
If we had to have gone corner? Easy. B.W. Webb out of William and Mary. He and Webster played primarily and mostly zone in college, so the scenario for both of them on how well they fit into a team who runs more man (like we do) is quite similar. Webb (although smaller) is an aggressive tackler in the run and has plus skills as a return man (which Webster offers nothing at.) He isn't as much of a physical specimen, but is more athletic than he Kayvon and his drills (outside the 40) at Indianapolis demonstrate that.

Webster has 2" on him in arm length, but much smaller hands. Webb also tested out phenomenally at the combine and lit it up in Mobile where he was awesome all week. This was a guy that the Broncos also brought in, but must have felt Webster has better long-term potential. I think that Webb profiles best as a nickel (starter immediately) and would be best suited there long-term. When it comes to Webster, we are hoping for a guy who might eventually grow into that role and based on his skills and "straight line" speed, can perhaps be a #2 guy down the road. Elway called him a good cover corner, but almost every USF fan there is talks about how he needs to improve those skills and is raw. He got thrown at all day against Florida State this year and didn't make any plays on the ball. It was pathetic.

As I said that day in draft threads and elsewhere, I expected RB/CB to be the 2nd and 3rd round picks for the Broncos. I was fine with that, and had told many others we would take a corner despite them not seeing the need for it. I'm more than fine with Ball now (after some thinking and watching everything I could get my hands on) but Webster in the third is still unforgivable. Reaching at least a round ahead of time because they saw their guys (and I believe they were Wreh-Wilson and McFadden) go ahead of them and they panicked.

Just re-watch that presser from the day. The way they talked, the way they spoke and their body language were all indicative of it being a selection based on a desire to upgrade rather than him being the best player on their board. Sorry, he wasn't even the best corner on the board -- so how could he be your best player?

We will have to wait and see. In the long run I bet Aaron Hester pans out better than Webster does. Hester can obviously play man from the get go, has a bigger frame and just as good of a skill set. I just don't see it with Webster. I think he has the ability to come in and play in some big nickel and perhaps even move to safety. So hopefully he can do something. On tape he has no ball skills and as a zone corner, he should be making plays on the balls and getting picks. He wasn't.

If people think that is going to change in the NFL. . . LMFAO. I'll gladly eat my crow if/when it comes. Loved the Derek Wolfe crow. You were right on him. Glad to be proven wrong. Though, I doubt I will be proven wrong with Kayvon Webster. This pick was an abortion and there is no way of sugar coating it. We will dig this thread up in 2-3 years and see what shakes out.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:19 PM   #162
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If we had to have gone corner? Easy. B.W. Webb
I saw B.W. Webb play at the Senior Bowl, and he didn't impress me at all. He's a late 4th round draft pick. I'd be highly surprised if he ever ever becomes more than a 4th CB in the NFL. I don't think anybody should have any problems at all with the Broncos choosing Kayvon Webster over B.W. Webb. I didn't like the Osweiler pick at the time, but I'm over it now. Lavonte David would have been nice, but at this point there aren't any players at #90 or below in 2013 that I could say, "Man I wish we would have picked this guy".

The only guy that I could seriously make a case for would be Phillip Thomas, but I'm not ready to give up on Rahim yet...so I'm good. That's why I bring this up, because I think the big broohaha about Webster isn't really warranted. #90 is a pretty low pick, pretty tough to find an impact player at that spot (especially a CB).

I heard Chris Dempsey on the radio the other day saying, "If I was the Broncos, I would have chosen Robert Alford in the 2nd and Johnathan Franklin in the 4th, instead of Ball and Webster". I had to laugh. To me, that was a pretty douchey and disengenious thing to say.

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Old 05-04-2013, 08:56 PM   #163
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I don't know Req looks like he made quite a few plays

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zsDKtSgXwA
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:02 PM   #164
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I wish we knew if Billab**** really was high on Webster as has been reported and intended to take him. Remember the next pick was a DB from Rutgers.. So maybe he was high on their board. I believe in value, but I also believe that if that's your guy and you value him, you take him where you feel comfortable doing so..

Alford in the second, Franklin in the fourth, sounds great in theory, especially after the fact. But we don't know how anyone will produce..
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:04 PM   #165
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We had our chance to take B.W. Webb, Proyer, Davis..and others, but we passed..Webster demonstrates something that we covet.. He was also miss used in a zone scheme..
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:38 PM   #166
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Thomas is the only DB i would have taken over Webster and he fell to the 4th so i would have overdrafted him.
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Old 05-04-2013, 10:51 PM   #167
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What other CB did you want at #90?
A better question is: what cb at #90 could come in and start this year? If the answer is "probably nobody", then we will not know who would have been the better pick until later, and maybe not until next offseason.

Webster was not drafted to start this year unless there are a rash of injuries, and God help us if there are, but rather be ST's and maybe ease into a contributing role as the season progresses.

So based on this thesis, the coaches think Webster is the better long-term prospect that they just didn't want to leave to chance. I trust the coaches & Elway more on this than any draft guru.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:08 PM   #168
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I wish we knew if Billab**** really was high on Webster as has been reported and intended to take him. Remember the next pick was a DB from Rutgers.. So maybe he was high on their board. I believe in value, but I also believe that if that's your guy and you value him, you take him where you feel comfortable doing so..

Alford in the second, Franklin in the fourth, sounds great in theory, especially after the fact. But we don't know how anyone will produce..
Agreed with the bold. Also, I like Franklin, but he seems like a "Hilman type" to me, so why bother? I think Ball is just what the doctor ordered.

And, can Alford come in and beat DRC to start this year? If not, then again, why bother? I don't believe Webster was drafted to start this year. I think he was drafted for next year and/or beyond.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:54 PM   #169
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I wish we knew if Billab**** really was high on Webster as has been reported and intended to take him. Remember the next pick was a DB from Rutgers.. So maybe he was high on their board. I believe in value, but I also believe that if that's your guy and you value him, you take him where you feel comfortable doing so..

Alford in the second, Franklin in the fourth, sounds great in theory, especially after the fact. But we don't know how anyone will produce..
1. Bellicheat is one of the worst Secondary drafters in the entire NFL. He's taken 7 DB's in the top 2 rounds in the past 7 years, and none of them have amounted to anything.

2. I just thought what Dempsey said was disingenious because who knew that Franklin would be available at #120? Nobody. He was projected as a top 50 pick. You pick the BPA at a position of need on your board and live with it.

3. The 2nd and 3rd round picks (Ball and Webster) are pretty pivotal to the rest of the draft. If the Broncos would have used their 4th to trade up (at either #58 or #90), they wouldn't have gotten Quanterus Smith...I ain't down with that. So I'm happy with Kayvon Webster, he's a good dude, he's got all the measurables, and some good skills. I think he'll be better than Omar Bolden (which isn't saying much at this point).

Like Russell Peters would say, "Take it and go!"

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Old 05-05-2013, 04:56 AM   #170
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I've said it a million times.

We signed Manning. That means you don't need to use a high pick on a QB. You get a FA to back him up and use a mid-round / late-round pick pick on developing a guy.

For a team who consistently talks about being one or two players away and then uses their second round pick on a QB. . . lol. Bull****. "BPA" my ass. I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. I want Denver to start getting players in the second through fourth rounds that do more than pinch hit every once and a while. I don't expect fourth rounders to be starters, but I do expect second and third round picks to contribute more than they have.
Denver signed Manning who had played in over a year and at the time of the signing he couldn't even throw a football.

Excuse me haven't we been through this **** a hundred times??
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:06 AM   #171
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Agreed with the bold. Also, I like Franklin, but he seems like a "Hilman type" to me, so why bother? I think Ball is just what the doctor ordered.

And, can Alford come in and beat DRC to start this year? If not, then again, why bother? I don't believe Webster was drafted to start this year. I think he was drafted for next year and/or beyond.
I heard big talk about Franklin, and how he was possibly a first rounder, but I thought the whole time, he's a slightly more physical Hillman type running back. He has drawn comparisons to Warrick Dunn, mostly because Mora coached both and it's not hard to draw that correlation, but both have/had some speed, solid hands, pass protection skills, some toughness.

GB will probably use him as a third down back, or a change of pace back to Lacy, if Lacy recovers. But he will be a change of pace back to Benson for now.

So I agree I'm not sure there's a huge difference in Hillman and Franklin. While there are differences between the two but not power back to scat back differences. If we passed on Ball who was rumored to be GB's target and they traded down thinking they could get him, then I would have preferred Taylor in the fourth.

1. Williams DT
2. Alford CB
3.
4. Stephan Taylor RB
5. Quantereus Smith DE

That would have been a quality haul.. Ideally with a safety in the third, though I would have preferred Cyprien in the first and Brandon Williams in the third.

And Alford looks like he has great potential, but it depends on what DRC shows up to play, DRC from Philly or AZ? Even if it was Philly's, Alford would have to still work to beat out DRC and it would still probably take time to do so..
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:15 AM   #172
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1. Bellicheat is one of the worst Secondary drafters in the entire NFL. He's taken 7 DB's in the top 2 rounds in the past 7 years, and none of them have amounted to anything.

2. I just thought what Dempsey said was disingenious because who knew that Franklin would be available at #120? Nobody. He was projected as a top 50 pick. You pick the BPA at a position of need on your board and live with it.

3. The 2nd and 3rd round picks (Ball and Webster) are pretty pivotal to the rest of the draft. If the Broncos would have used their 4th to trade up (at either #58 or #90), they wouldn't have gotten Quanterus Smith...I ain't down with that. So I'm happy with Kayvon Webster, he's a good dude, he's got all the measurables, and some good skills. I think he'll be better than Omar Bolden (which isn't saying much at this point).

Like Russell Peters would say, "Take it and go!"
Well maybe this wound have been a pick he nailed on a DB, we will just be the fortunate beneficiaries. As far as Franklin, I'm not sure he is the complimentary piece to Hillman that we needed..
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:49 PM   #173
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Denver signed Manning who had played in over a year and at the time of the signing he couldn't even throw a football.

Excuse me haven't we been through this **** a hundred times??
Manning was throwing when we signed him. What Denver did last year taking Osweiler instead of a prospect who could contribute right away was mind-boggling. FWIW, I like Dysert way more than Osweiler.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:39 PM   #174
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Manning was throwing when we signed him. What Denver did last year taking Osweiler instead of a prospect who could contribute right away was mind-boggling. FWIW, I like Dysert way more than Osweiler.
part of him signing with us was due to us having a legit plan in place to have a true back up QB and potential QBOTF in place.
this was endorsed and signed off on by Manning.

we needed a QB to groom, we got a potential franchise guy in the 2nd round and he's being groomed under Manning. i don't see the issue.
whether we took him in the early 2nd or late 2nd, or 3rd is irrelevant.
we wanted him, he was the top QB left on our board, we drafted him and Peyton was on board with it.

the only people who it was mind boggling to where those who didn't pay attention to the amount of time Elway spent scouting Oz or that thought he shouldn't take a QB.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:40 PM   #175
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Manning was throwing when we signed him. What Denver did last year taking Osweiler instead of a prospect who could contribute right away was mind-boggling. FWIW, I like Dysert way more than Osweiler.
Clearly you have an easily boggled mind.
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