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Old 04-30-2013, 03:58 PM   #151
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I mean really, in that case credit must go to Mike Shanahan for finding Brandon Browner and not the Seachickens right?
You are twisting way too hard to even take yourself seriously right now.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:32 PM   #152
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I mean really, in that case credit must go to Mike Shanahan for finding Brandon Browner and not the Seachickens right?
i rarely agree with Rev. but what? are you serious?

finding a guy and developing a guy are two separate entities.
McDaniels found a few of our key guys, but he wasn't the one who developed them. he also ****ed up a ton of the picks he had.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:50 PM   #153
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when debating the drafting prowess of the Elway regime, we should remember that Von Miller was not the consensus pick...Marcel Darius or Patrick Peterson were the guys most folks mocked to us. Remember when people talked about how a 4-3 SOLB wasn't a critical position, and it would be a waste of a pick to take one that high?

Getting this one right has got to count more than a couple other "near misses" or "jury is still out".

along those lines, sure, not every pick has been optimal. However - how many clear whiffs have there been? Julius Thomas is probably the closest to a whiff, but that's a 4th round upside pick, expectations were probably pretty low with that one anyways. i'm not gonna lose any sleep over a 6th or 7th rounder not making the team in Beal or Mohamed.
What does him not being the consensus pick have to do with anything?

On a side note, do you think we lose to Balt if we have Peterson? Do we have another Lombardi?
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:05 PM   #154
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You are twisting way too hard to even take yourself seriously right now.
ok fair enough, I don't take myself seriously most of the time anyways!
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:29 PM   #155
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ok fair enough, I don't take myself seriously most of the time anyways!
It was really convincing though.

I found myself agreeing with you before I realized you'd just changed the subject
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:32 PM   #156
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I have always found it too simplistic to simply say that because TD was a 6th round pick and umpteenth RB drafted that year and he was great, that means everybody who didn't predict his success is wrong and anything they say is BS. On the other hand it is also too easy to simply point to some mock drafts and say, this player was a 7th round pick so it was a reach.
Agreed, and a good example for "reaches" like Kayvon. Suppose we had the '95 draft all over again, knowing now what we didn't know then. Would you be willing to take TD in the top 10? Anywhere in the 1st? 2nd?, etc, etc. He would certainly would have been considered a huge reach, but his NFL production says high 1st round. Same with Tom Brady.

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I bet you that during the draft there were people who wanted to draft Duron Harmon or Kayvon Webster or some other guy who was perceived to be a huge reach, but they got beaten to the punch by a team that "reached" - of course that doesn't mean it happens with every guy who is a perceived reach, some of that is just due to bad drafting.
Absolutely true. The problem is we will never know because teams rarely, if ever, go public on who they wanted, but didn't get.


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I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now, firstly the team has been very successful the last 2 years and secondly there just aren't that many spots on the team that could be improved massively, so even the players they miss on probably won't be too big a deal right now.
Me too, particularly with defensive picks, because I trust Fox & JDR to know the type of players that fit thier scheme. Is it foolproof? Of course not, but all I know is that Fox inherited the worst D in the league, and in 2 years they are a top 5 defense(?).

Not to mention, Elway is a HOF player that took over a sorry 4-12 team that was the laughing stock of the league at the time, and in 2 years made them legitimate SB contenders.

He gets my benefit of the doubt too. I guess I just don't understand why they wouldn't get other fans benefit also. Oh well, so it is on the Mane.

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Old 04-30-2013, 06:54 PM   #157
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Right, just go ask GB fans how they feel about Rogers now and whether it was a wasted pick to go after him with Favre still on board.

Or San Fran for that matter.

It's all well and good to say we shouldn't have drafted Os AFTER Manning had the kind of season he did.

But if Manning hadn't come back healthy then the entire world including you would have blasted the FO for not taking advantage of one of the best QB classes on paper in the past 10 years and completely relying on a 37 year old QB with multiple neck surgeries and more than year out of football.
I wouldn't bring up San Fran, since it was Denver's #36 San Fran traded up for to draft Kaepernick. It's still a sore spot with me, since the QB's we had on the roster at that time were Orton, Tebow, and Brady Quinn. We drafted Rahim, Quinton Carter and Mike Mohamed in return I believe. So who did we draft from Nevada that year? Virgil Green. That bunch of players will be a good trivia question in the future.

Osweiler, I didn't have any problem with that pick. Apparently Elway knows just about everything one can know about the guy, he has size, a strong arm, can make all the throws, has some mobility, worth the throw of the dice even if "a day one starter was available". Which would be Lavonte David, as most people said. And David WAS a day one starter, but Wesley Woodyard manned the spot David was projected to play at, so no big deal.

As for Nate Irving, I have to note that Buffalo picked Kelvin Sheppard right after the Broncs picked Irving, and Sheppard at least showed up right away. Of course, Buffalo just traded Sheppard to Indy for one of their LB's, so . . . .
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:26 PM   #158
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I wouldn't bring up San Fran, since it was Denver's #36 San Fran traded up for to draft Kaepernick. It's still a sore spot with me, since the QB's we had on the roster at that time were Orton, Tebow, and Brady Quinn. We drafted Rahim, Quinton Carter and Mike Mohamed in return I believe. So who did we draft from Nevada that year? Virgil Green. That bunch of players will be a good trivia question in the future.

Osweiler, I didn't have any problem with that pick. Apparently Elway knows just about everything one can know about the guy, he has size, a strong arm, can make all the throws, has some mobility, worth the throw of the dice even if "a day one starter was available". Which would be Lavonte David, as most people said. And David WAS a day one starter, but Wesley Woodyard manned the spot David was projected to play at, so no big deal.

As for Nate Irving, I have to note that Buffalo picked Kelvin Sheppard right after the Broncs picked Irving, and Sheppard at least showed up right away. Of course, Buffalo just traded Sheppard to Indy for one of their LB's, so . . . .
only draft pick i had an issue with under Elway. i could never figure out why we took him. he seemed like a UDFA to me.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:24 AM   #159
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This pick reminds me of another 3rd rd CB pick....Karl Paymah.

Good size\speed #s. Considered aggresive at the POA. Questionable instincts. Considered a reach.

I just hope that Med is as wrong with Webster as he was with Paymah.
I liked the fact they went after 3 CB's in that draft and picked up Brandon Browner in UDFA, and I wanted to like all three of them. Paymah was a press CB coming out, and played very little Zone at WSU. He just did not fit in DEN's scheme very well, and he never learned the techniques to play at the NFL level. He could not learn to play tight without grabbing and clutching downfield. In some ways, he reminds me of Webster physically, but he was a press Man CB coming out, and he had better instincts for man coverage.

I am not sure how I was wrong about Paymah though. Just like Webster, I wanted all those guys to make the CB position better since they had been rolling with 2 UDFA's in Kelly Herndon and Lenny Walls before the Champ Trade. I thought Paymah was the most raw guy of the three, and he proved not to be able to translate to the NFL. Damn Brandon Marshall though for taking Darrent too soon
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:00 AM   #160
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I liked the fact they went after 3 CB's in that draft and picked up Brandon Browner in UDFA, and I wanted to like all three of them. Paymah was a press CB coming out, and played very little Zone at WSU. He just did not fit in DEN's scheme very well, and he never learned the techniques to play at the NFL level. He could not learn to play tight without grabbing and clutching downfield. In some ways, he reminds me of Webster physically, but he was a press Man CB coming out, and he had better instincts for man coverage.

I am not sure how I was wrong about Paymah though. Just like Webster, I wanted all those guys to make the CB position better since they had been rolling with 2 UDFA's in Kelly Herndon and Lenny Walls before the Champ Trade. I thought Paymah was the most raw guy of the three, and he proved not to be able to translate to the NFL. Damn Brandon Marshall though for taking Darrent too soon
I want you to be wrong on SOMETHING! Actually, my recollection was that you were always higher on Paymah during his post draft evaluation than you were on Foxworth.

Interesting only in that Websters game reminded me vaguely of Paymahs and I hope that Webster’s career arc has a higher trajectory.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:34 PM   #161
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I am not sure how I was wrong about Paymah though. Just like Webster, I wanted all those guys to make the CB position better since they had been rolling with 2 UDFA's in Kelly Herndon and Lenny Walls before the Champ Trade. I thought Paymah was the most raw guy of the three, and he proved not to be able to translate to the NFL. Damn Brandon Marshall though for taking Darrent too soon
I seem to remember Shannahan talking to a reporter about Paymah in his 2nd or 3rd year. He was asked why Paymah was slow to "get it", or something like that.

Shanny said something to the effect that Paymah has all the tools, but displayed "zero work ethic" in his rookie year. I remember him emphazising the term "zero". It surprised me because Shanny was unusually frank in the interview. No coach's double talk this time.

I am not sure that will be much of a problem with Webster.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:19 PM   #162
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What 24champ posted was actually something I sent him on FB and told him to post for me.

(A) I never said the drafts by Elway were failures, I just stated that I expect more than one rookie from a draft class to make a start that same year. Wolfe was the only one. Sure, we got some role players who did well, but even with this team being quality, I expect more.

(B) It is almost impossible to argue we haven't mortgaged valued in rounds 2-4. Trading down, only to trade up for questionable players and people who aren't even contributing. I'm sorry. Second and third round picks should be used on players who contribute immediately. Webster might pan out down the road, but blowing a third on a guy who is going to be a special teams relegate is dumb. Just like blowing a second on Osweiler when we had other need was dumb.

Beeeewrr.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:19 PM   #163
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What 24champ posted was actually something I sent him on FB and told him to post for me.

(A) I never said the drafts by Elway were failures, I just stated that I expect more than one rookie from a draft class to make a start that same year. Wolfe was the only one. Sure, we got some role players who did well, but even with this team being quality, I expect more.

(B) It is almost impossible to argue we haven't mortgaged valued in rounds 2-4. Trading down, only to trade up for questionable players and people who aren't even contributing. I'm sorry. Second and third round picks should be used on players who contribute immediately. Webster might pan out down the road, but blowing a third on a guy who is going to be a special teams relegate is dumb. Just like blowing a second on Osweiler when we had other need was dumb.

Beeeewrr.
So I would assume you also think the Packers drafting Aaron Rodgers when they already had Favre was dumb, yes?

Just think of how good they would be with a stud WLB though instead
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:28 PM   #164
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So I would assume you also think the Packers drafting Aaron Rodgers when they already had Favre was dumb, yes?

Just think of how good they would be with a stud WLB though instead
Aaron Rodgers was a projected Top 10 selection. Green Bay didn't have very many other pressing needs on the team. Denver did have needs last year they could have addressed at 58. The situation isn't nearly as comparable as you would like to make it be. If Denver was in the market for a back-up QB, they could have had Kirk Cousins later.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:47 PM   #165
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Aaron Rodgers was a projected Top 10 selection. Green Bay didn't have very many other pressing needs on the team. Denver did have needs last year they could have addressed at 58. The situation isn't nearly as comparable as you would like to make it be. If Denver was in the market for a back-up QB, they could have had Kirk Cousins later.
but then think of the potential linebackers they would of missed out on with that 4th round pick

My point is that qb far and away trumps every position, it doesnt matter how many "needs" you fill if you dont have a qb

GB had needs, they were not some dynasty
They then went on to win a SB with the guy they spent a first on who had to sit for 3 years

I just cant criticize a team for upgrading the qb position
As someone mentioned earlier about how long we have gone since Elway before getting another elite qb
It is hard to find one, I would rather overspend to ensure we have a good qb than have to settle for backups and retreads because our top picks could have been better spent filling "immediate needs"
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #166
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I've said it a million times.

We signed Manning. That means you don't need to use a high pick on a QB. You get a FA to back him up and use a mid-round / late-round pick pick on developing a guy.

For a team who consistently talks about being one or two players away and then uses their second round pick on a QB. . . lol. Bull****. "BPA" my ass. I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. I want Denver to start getting players in the second through fourth rounds that do more than pinch hit every once and a while. I don't expect fourth rounders to be starters, but I do expect second and third round picks to contribute more than they have.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:02 PM   #167
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I've said it a million times.

We signed Manning. That means you don't need to use a high pick on a QB. You get a FA to back him up and use a mid-round / late-round pick pick on developing a guy.

For a team who consistently talks about being one or two players away and then uses their second round pick on a QB. . . lol. Bull****. "BPA" my ass. I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. I want Denver to start getting players in the second through fourth rounds that do more than pinch hit every once and a while. I don't expect fourth rounders to be starters, but I do expect second and third round picks to contribute more than they have.
Yeah except late round guys dont win SBs like high rounders
Just take a look a the recent SB winners and how they addressed the qb position

I am not suggesting Denver spend a second on a qb every year, but I dont think one can say it was a bad pick at the moment when we did not have a QBOTF on the roster

I know some on here think we need to go all in for the next couple years, but you do want to have a plan in place when Manning retires and not have to start from scratch
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:13 PM   #168
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Webster might pan out down the road, but blowing a third on a guy who is going to be a special teams relegate is dumb.
What other CB did you want at #90?
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:44 PM   #169
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What other CB did you want at #90?
If we had to have gone corner? Easy. B.W. Webb out of William and Mary. He and Webster played primarily and mostly zone in college, so the scenario for both of them on how well they fit into a team who runs more man (like we do) is quite similar. Webb (although smaller) is an aggressive tackler in the run and has plus skills as a return man (which Webster offers nothing at.) He isn't as much of a physical specimen, but is more athletic than he Kayvon and his drills (outside the 40) at Indianapolis demonstrate that.

Webster has 2" on him in arm length, but much smaller hands. Webb also tested out phenomenally at the combine and lit it up in Mobile where he was awesome all week. This was a guy that the Broncos also brought in, but must have felt Webster has better long-term potential. I think that Webb profiles best as a nickel (starter immediately) and would be best suited there long-term. When it comes to Webster, we are hoping for a guy who might eventually grow into that role and based on his skills and "straight line" speed, can perhaps be a #2 guy down the road. Elway called him a good cover corner, but almost every USF fan there is talks about how he needs to improve those skills and is raw. He got thrown at all day against Florida State this year and didn't make any plays on the ball. It was pathetic.

As I said that day in draft threads and elsewhere, I expected RB/CB to be the 2nd and 3rd round picks for the Broncos. I was fine with that, and had told many others we would take a corner despite them not seeing the need for it. I'm more than fine with Ball now (after some thinking and watching everything I could get my hands on) but Webster in the third is still unforgivable. Reaching at least a round ahead of time because they saw their guys (and I believe they were Wreh-Wilson and McFadden) go ahead of them and they panicked.

Just re-watch that presser from the day. The way they talked, the way they spoke and their body language were all indicative of it being a selection based on a desire to upgrade rather than him being the best player on their board. Sorry, he wasn't even the best corner on the board -- so how could he be your best player?

We will have to wait and see. In the long run I bet Aaron Hester pans out better than Webster does. Hester can obviously play man from the get go, has a bigger frame and just as good of a skill set. I just don't see it with Webster. I think he has the ability to come in and play in some big nickel and perhaps even move to safety. So hopefully he can do something. On tape he has no ball skills and as a zone corner, he should be making plays on the balls and getting picks. He wasn't.

If people think that is going to change in the NFL. . . LMFAO. I'll gladly eat my crow if/when it comes. Loved the Derek Wolfe crow. You were right on him. Glad to be proven wrong. Though, I doubt I will be proven wrong with Kayvon Webster. This pick was an abortion and there is no way of sugar coating it. We will dig this thread up in 2-3 years and see what shakes out.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:19 PM   #170
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If we had to have gone corner? Easy. B.W. Webb
I saw B.W. Webb play at the Senior Bowl, and he didn't impress me at all. He's a late 4th round draft pick. I'd be highly surprised if he ever ever becomes more than a 4th CB in the NFL. I don't think anybody should have any problems at all with the Broncos choosing Kayvon Webster over B.W. Webb. I didn't like the Osweiler pick at the time, but I'm over it now. Lavonte David would have been nice, but at this point there aren't any players at #90 or below in 2013 that I could say, "Man I wish we would have picked this guy".

The only guy that I could seriously make a case for would be Phillip Thomas, but I'm not ready to give up on Rahim yet...so I'm good. That's why I bring this up, because I think the big broohaha about Webster isn't really warranted. #90 is a pretty low pick, pretty tough to find an impact player at that spot (especially a CB).

I heard Chris Dempsey on the radio the other day saying, "If I was the Broncos, I would have chosen Robert Alford in the 2nd and Johnathan Franklin in the 4th, instead of Ball and Webster". I had to laugh. To me, that was a pretty douchey and disengenious thing to say.

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Old 05-04-2013, 08:56 PM   #171
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I don't know Req looks like he made quite a few plays

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zsDKtSgXwA
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:02 PM   #172
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I wish we knew if Billab**** really was high on Webster as has been reported and intended to take him. Remember the next pick was a DB from Rutgers.. So maybe he was high on their board. I believe in value, but I also believe that if that's your guy and you value him, you take him where you feel comfortable doing so..

Alford in the second, Franklin in the fourth, sounds great in theory, especially after the fact. But we don't know how anyone will produce..
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:04 PM   #173
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We had our chance to take B.W. Webb, Proyer, Davis..and others, but we passed..Webster demonstrates something that we covet.. He was also miss used in a zone scheme..
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:38 PM   #174
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Thomas is the only DB i would have taken over Webster and he fell to the 4th so i would have overdrafted him.
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Old 05-04-2013, 10:51 PM   #175
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What other CB did you want at #90?
A better question is: what cb at #90 could come in and start this year? If the answer is "probably nobody", then we will not know who would have been the better pick until later, and maybe not until next offseason.

Webster was not drafted to start this year unless there are a rash of injuries, and God help us if there are, but rather be ST's and maybe ease into a contributing role as the season progresses.

So based on this thesis, the coaches think Webster is the better long-term prospect that they just didn't want to leave to chance. I trust the coaches & Elway more on this than any draft guru.
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