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Old 04-30-2013, 05:59 AM   #126
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That's a fair take. My contention is with 24champ's claim that we haven't gotten enough instant impact from our picks, and therefore they've been bad drafts, a post you seemed to agree with. That's short-sighted hogwash (to borrow his phrase).



I think this is a case of you having unreasonable expectations of draft picks. You're looking for starters when you draft. It'd be nice if they could all be Pro Bowlers, but they can't. Seriously, do you think "good" drafting teams like Baltimore and Green Bay haul two or three Pro Bowlers out of every class? Drafts of that caliber are the exception, not the norm. If we get three or four years of starting out of Rahim Moore, that's a successful pick even if he's never better than "serviceable." So, if we end up with 4-5 multi year starters out of the 2011 draft, that's a helluva class, even if all those guys aren't necessarily world-beaters.



My only point is that it's waaaaay too early to say anything about the 2012 class. It doesn't bother me that Boldin didn't play much last season. I highly doubt they selected a guy in the 4th round coming off an injury with the anticipation that he would crack the top 3 CBs when we had Champ, Harris, and had just given Porter a $4 million deal (although that did not work out). I'm sure they would have loved it if that had happened, but I doubt it was being counted on. He was a developmental pick, a guy who they saw as a 2nd round talent if he had not been injured. I was okay with Hillman last season. What did you expect, Adrian Peterson production in the 3rd round? Dude weighs a buck eighty, they drafted him to be a change of pace guy. Plus, he's only 20 years old and had to improve and gain experience in pass pro before he would get more PT. Again, I think your expectations for immediate impact outside the top 2 rounds aren't necessarily realistic. Sure, it happens, but it isn't the norm.



That's fair. Cautious optimism is fine. That was not the tone of 24champ's post that you agreed with.
Theyre all Broncos now and everyone wants to love them. However, these past three drafts DO have a lot of the same Sundquist elements where we'd select someone (Kayvon for example) WAY before they were projected to go by the "experts". If you'll recall, we'd all mock the people doing the hand-wringing back then and how Sundquist and co know more than the experts and well, hindsight is 20/20.

Let's just all hope the Kayvon selection is more Ben Hamilton than Darius Watts.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:07 AM   #127
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Glad Elway's the GM and not you.
Are you kidding or serious?

I place almost no value in the RB position (slightly above special teams specialist, not because their impact is low, but because the average difference in talent is almost non-existent) and I love me some MethWolfe, but Martin would've ran away (literally) with ROY in almost any other season than last.

You're really illuminating your bias in that response.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:08 AM   #128
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Theyre all Broncos now and everyone wants to love them. However, these past three drafts DO have a lot of the same Sundquist elements where we'd select someone (Kayvon for example) WAY before they were projected to go by the "experts". If you'll recall, we'd all mock the people doing the hand-wringing back then and how Sundquist and co know more than the experts and well, hindsight is 20/20.

Let's just all hope the Kayvon selection is more Ben Hamilton than Darius Watts.
You'll get no argument from me on the Webster pick. I agree 100% that that was a reach. IMO, I think the value in general has been good with the picks in Elway's first three drafts. There was some debate about Hillman's value in the 3rd as well (I think most of the online prognosticators pegged him in the 4th-5th round area). Other than those two, I can't really think of anyone else who was selected that was considered a major reach.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:20 AM   #129
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Are you kidding or serious?

I place almost no value in the RB position (slightly above special teams specialist, not because their impact is low, but because the average difference in talent is almost non-existent) and I love me some MethWolfe, but Martin would've ran away (literally) with ROY in almost any other season than last.

You're really illuminating your bias in that response.
I like Martin, but to me it's much harder to find big guys like Wolfe who can have an immediate impact on the DL. The bust rate is very high, as you know, and even the successful ones often take a season or two to develop. I also think we've just scratched the surface with his potential, though I admit that's projection on my part. I was on the Wolfe bandwagon well before the 2012 draft, so this isn't just me stroking Elway's pick. He was a favorite of mine all along. Between a good DL and a good RB, I'll take the DL 10 times out of 10 unless you're talking about an Adrian Peterson type of talent, which Martin is not.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:23 AM   #130
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I like Martin, but to me it's much harder to find big guys like Wolfe who can have an immediate impact on the DL. The bust rate is very high, as you know, and even the successful ones often take a season or two to develop. I also think we've just scratched the surface with his potential, though I admit that's projection on my part. I was on the Wolfe bandwagon well before the 2012 draft, so this isn't just me stroking Elway's pick. He was a favorite of mine all along. Between a good DL and a good RB, I'll take the DL 10 times out of 10 unless you're talking about an Adrian Peterson type of talent, which Martin is not.
So let me see:

1. You're glad Elway is the GM and praising his work

2. You dont value the RB position

3. Elway has spent a 2nd and a 3rd on the RB position in back to back years.

Does not compute.

Also:

http://www.nfl.com/player/dougmartin/2532899/profile

http://www.nfl.com/player/derekwolfe/2533026/profile

You're out of your mind and continuing a discussion with you is pointless.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:37 AM   #131
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So let me see:

1. You're glad Elway is the GM and praising his work
So far, it's hard for me to see any argument that he hasn't done a great job considering he took over a 4-12 team two seasons ago and we now stand at 13-3. That said, I've got no issue if people aren't sold on Elway's drafting prowess. My only issue was with 24champ's post that was basically declaring those drafts failures because there has not been more instant impact. Those picks could be proven failures over time, but I just think it's too early to make that judgement, and I think it isn't terribly realistic to expect instant impact outside the first two rounds, especially on a good team. It happens, sure, but I don't think it's something you can count on.

Quote:
2. You dont value the RB position

3. Elway has spent a 2nd and a 3rd on the RB position in back to back years.
I value the RB position, just not as much as I value good 300+ pound DL.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:43 AM   #132
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08-17-12 South Florida cornberback Kayvon Webster has such high-regard for Champ Bailey's press coverage skills he will often proclaim “Champ has arrived at practice,” when he's asked to jam a receiver at the line. Renowned for his physical prowess and ability to press receivers, Webster is one of the most intense, aggressive corners in the Big East. It's one reason why Webster earned All-Big East second team honors last season. Despite the accolades Webster remains humble, but hungry. “I haven't done anything yet,” Webster said. To that end, Webster worked arduously with Dallas Cowboys and former USF cornerback Mike Jenkins throughout the summer. Jenkins provided helpful tips on reading a quarterback's drop steps, focusing on the direction of a quarterback's shoulders and anticipating a reciever's break. Webster said the pointers will help him close quicker on the ball. The 5-foot-11, 198 pound senior has been an integral part of the defense since arriving on campus in 2009. As a true freshman, Webster recorded 30 tackles and an interception in six starts. In 2011, Webster finished with two interceptions and seven pass break-ups. In Webster's first two seasons he had just two break-ups combined. Though Webster places team goals ahead of individual pursuits, he could become the conference's top NFL draft prospect at corner with a spectacular season. In order to get there, Jenkins, the former USF corner, has implored Webster to remain self-assured when playing on an island. “He told me just to believe in myself and play with confidence,” Webster said. - Matt Rybaltowski, CBSSports.com
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...2013&genpos=CB
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:56 AM   #133
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Of course I can. They weren't just needs but pretty good prospects chosen at those positions. We didn't reach for those guys or give up a ton to move for them. Bolden was projected to go much higher before his ACL and has the ability to start. Same with Irving if he gets more physical.
You have to admit that there's some clear doubt as to whether or not Irving is going to work out. The guy couldn't get run ahead of Mays and Brooking. If Stewart effing Bradley beats him out this year that pick is a flush. You pretty much admitted this in another thread.

Bolden deserves more time but the fact they signed DRC and reached for Webster suggests they might not have a lot of confidence in him. I don't see him getting much run this season behind Champ/DRC/Harris, do you?

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Right, that sounds great and all but at that point Manning wasn't anywhere near 100% and still rehabbing. So you go into the 2012 season with that huge risk and only have Caleb Hanie backing you up? Like I said, you may not like the individual pick but there was a need for it and it's to early to say so and so player would have been better.

But looking at the draft class this year how much better does that Os pick look now?
I just don't think the Os pick was smart for a team in win now mode. If Manning can't go you're dead either way. And there were better QB's available later.

My other major draft nitpick is that if the Hillman pick works you don't need to expend a 2nd rounder this year on a RB. They've now spent a 3 and a 2 on RB's in a 2 year window. Too early to write him off but Hillman showed little to suggest he was worth it. I have hope that Ball will. But between draft and FA I'd like to think they could have addressed the position more efficiently.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:02 AM   #134
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There was never a need to spend a high pick on a QB after signing Manning. If Manning fails, well your season is shot with or without Oz, and he wasnt even the best option on the board.
Well let's just agree to disagree. I think we needed a long term answer at QB since Manning wasn't even guaranteed to come back healthy at this point last year.

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So because Elway et al didnt crap themselves on the top picks, the way McDouche did (and really Demaryius Thomas, Beadles, Walton, Decker were pretty good picks) Ayers may be a solid pick, Moreno is kind of a bust. Several other guys contributed like Squid and Cox. Tebow led us to our only playoff win since 2005.

McDouche was the debil.

but he still had several 'hits' in his two drafts, even with pissing away a ton of talent and missing on a boatload of picks.

Elway has been really solid in FA. I dont think you can say that he is knocking it out of the park in the draft though. Shanny didn't either except for a couple of seasons, but his ability to sign FA's masked that for awhile. Doesn't mean that he didn't earn the criticism he got for is draft day gaffe's though.
Right, you want to criticize the FO on a draft with those rookies yet to even take the field. I see what you're doing wrong there.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:11 AM   #135
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Most backup QB's suck. Maybe Oz sucks. We wasted a 2nd rounder when there were day 1 starters on the board for a guy that nobody wants to see play until he is a 5th year pro at least.

I hope Webster tears up the league. I cringed at the pick though.
Right, just go ask GB fans how they feel about Rogers now and whether it was a wasted pick to go after him with Favre still on board.

Or San Fran for that matter.

It's all well and good to say we shouldn't have drafted Os AFTER Manning had the kind of season he did.

But if Manning hadn't come back healthy then the entire world including you would have blasted the FO for not taking advantage of one of the best QB classes on paper in the past 10 years and completely relying on a 37 year old QB with multiple neck surgeries and more than year out of football.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:13 AM   #136
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So far, it's hard for me to see any argument that he hasn't done a great job considering he took over a 4-12 team two seasons ago and we now stand at 13-3.
Agree, hard to argue with the overall results. Among other things they've done a good job in FA and UDFA and have a good coaching staff. But to be the contrarian again, by far the two most important pieces are Von Miller, who they got because of that 4-12 record and a draft with several can't miss talents, and Peyton Manning. It's the rest of the drafting I'm underwhelmed with thus far. Hopefully some of those guys step up this season. Need some results out of some combination of Moore, Irving, Wolfe, Hillman, and Bolden.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:15 AM   #137
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As to Webster, same logic was applied to Alphonso Smith. Yeah we got the guy they liked, way before we needed to. If they are right on him, no harm done.
h, if by same logic you mean we traded away a future first to draft Webster then gave up on him a year later then yeah sure, no harm done.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:20 AM   #138
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Theyre all Broncos now and everyone wants to love them. However, these past three drafts DO have a lot of the same Sundquist elements where we'd select someone (Kayvon for example) WAY before they were projected to go by the "experts". If you'll recall, we'd all mock the people doing the hand-wringing back then and how Sundquist and co know more than the experts and well, hindsight is 20/20.

Let's just all hope the Kayvon selection is more Ben Hamilton than Darius Watts.
I get what you're saying but you give the benefit of the doubt to a FO that found Tony Carter and Chris Harris.

A lot similar to how we gave Shanahan/Turner the benefit of the doubt when drafting RBs.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:32 AM   #139
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You have to admit that there's some clear doubt as to whether or not Irving is going to work out. The guy couldn't get run ahead of Mays and Brooking. If Stewart effing Bradley beats him out this year that pick is a flush. You pretty much admitted this in another thread.
Yes, sure but what point are you making here? That the FO didn't hit a home run on every single pick? The Mike position has been a problem on this team since Wilson retired.

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Bolden deserves more time but the fact they signed DRC and reached for Webster suggests they might not have a lot of confidence in him. I don't see him getting much run this season behind Champ/DRC/Harris, do you
?

No I don't but why is that a relevant criteria when we already do have Champ/DRC/Harris? Bolden is already a pretty good STs guy and last year was still coming back from injury so what are expecting from a 4th round pick in his first year?

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My other major draft nitpick is that if the Hillman pick works you don't need to expend a 2nd rounder this year on a RB. They've now spent a 3 and a 2 on RB's in a 2 year window. Too early to write him off but Hillman showed little to suggest he was worth it. I have hope that Ball will. But between draft and FA I'd like to think they could have addressed the position more efficiently
.

Sure, in hindsight someone like Turbin or Morris would have been a better choice but the rest of the league missed out on those guys as well. Again it's far too early to say either way for Hillman.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:46 AM   #140
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I get what you're saying but you give the benefit of the doubt to a FO that found Tony Carter and Chris Harris.

A lot similar to how we gave Shanahan/Turner the benefit of the doubt when drafting RBs.
Carter was "found" by McDaniels.
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:04 AM   #141
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Glad Elway's the GM and not you.
Ha. Don't get me wrong...I like Wolfe. Martin is an all-pro in the making however and has proved much more to this point than Wolfe. I'm certainly rooting for Wolfe big-time but Martin would have been a better pick last year.

Montee makes it a moot point however as he played his high school ball here (Wentzville, MO) and I worked with folks who went to school with him and they said his work ethic (weight room, diet etc..) even then as an 18 yr old was off the charts. Heavily recruited...chose WI. I think he will be in Martin's class of runners before all is said and done.
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:20 AM   #142
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Carter was "found" by McDaniels.
Yeah, if by found you mean cut soon after. McDaniels cut this guy just like he got rid of a lot of the talent from this team.

It was the current FO that brought him back, kept him through training camp, saw something and again kept him through final roster cuts at the expense of a much more experienced vet in Drayton Florence.

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Old 04-30-2013, 09:27 AM   #143
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Wolfe over Martin?? I'll take Martin!
That's what I thought too when I read the post but actually for this Peyton Manning lead team I think Wolfe was more valuable a pick.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:36 AM   #144
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I'm pretty sure the next highest rated CB on the board when the Broncos picked Kayvon Webster was B.W. Webb. I'll take Webster, who at least has the physical tools to be a starter in the NFL.

What player would you guys rather have had at #90? Just curious.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:59 AM   #145
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There was never a need to spend a high pick on a QB after signing Manning. If Manning fails, well your season is shot with or without Oz, and he wasnt even the best option on the board.

So because Elway et al didnt crap themselves on the top picks, the way McDouche did (and really Demaryius Thomas, Beadles, Walton, Decker were pretty good picks) Ayers may be a solid pick, Moreno is kind of a bust. Several other guys contributed like Squid and Cox. Tebow led us to our only playoff win since 2005.

McDouche was the debil.

but he still had several 'hits' in his two drafts, even with pissing away a ton of talent and missing on a boatload of picks.

Elway has been really solid in FA. I dont think you can say that he is knocking it out of the park in the draft though. Shanny didn't either except for a couple of seasons, but his ability to sign FA's masked that for awhile. Doesn't mean that he didn't earn the criticism he got for is draft day gaffe's though.

If the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers had taken Webster at the same spot, the pick would be mocked on this board. But because we did it...Genius!
when debating the drafting prowess of the Elway regime, we should remember that Von Miller was not the consensus pick...Marcel Darius or Patrick Peterson were the guys most folks mocked to us. Remember when people talked about how a 4-3 SOLB wasn't a critical position, and it would be a waste of a pick to take one that high?

Getting this one right has got to count more than a couple other "near misses" or "jury is still out".


along those lines, sure, not every pick has been optimal. However - how many clear whiffs have there been? Julius Thomas is probably the closest to a whiff, but that's a 4th round upside pick, expectations were probably pretty low with that one anyways. i'm not gonna lose any sleep over a 6th or 7th rounder not making the team in Beal or Mohamed.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:13 AM   #146
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Yeah, if by found you mean cut soon after. McDaniels cut this guy just like he got rid of a lot of the talent from this team.

It was the current FO that brought him back, kept him through training camp, saw something and again kept him through final roster cuts at the expense of a much more experienced vet in Drayton Florence.
No. Awful attempt at spin, fontaine. McDaniels kept him for over a year and may have kept him longer if it weren't for injury.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:30 PM   #147
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No. Awful attempt at spin, fontaine. McDaniels kept him for over a year and may have kept him longer if it weren't for injury.
Rev you need to find out what really happened so I suggest you dig it out for yourself.

Carter played ahead of Alphonso Smith ( who didn't right? ) and in training camp next year Carter was cut in Aug '10 while Smith was kept on for longer.

But Carter signed onto the Patriots Practice squad just a few weeks after he got cut from Denver and ended up on their practice squad for most of the season and played for them in December so the injury wasn't a big deal.

He was healthy enough to make the practice squad, and play later in the season so if your argument that McDaniels found him rests on "may" have kept him longer if not for injury doesn't really stand up.

As opposed to the current FO that brought him and not only kept him on the roster but gave him playing time on the field ahead of a veteran.

I mean really, in that case credit must go to Mike Shanahan for finding Brandon Browner and not the Seachickens right?

Last edited by fontaine; 04-30-2013 at 01:37 PM..
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:39 PM   #148
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Theyre all Broncos now and everyone wants to love them. However, these past three drafts DO have a lot of the same Sundquist elements where we'd select someone (Kayvon for example) WAY before they were projected to go by the "experts". If you'll recall, we'd all mock the people doing the hand-wringing back then and how Sundquist and co know more than the experts and well, hindsight is 20/20.

Let's just all hope the Kayvon selection is more Ben Hamilton than Darius Watts.
It is always difficult to evaluate a draft purely on what the "experts" thought would happen. Obviously there are many example of people being wrong, both during draft prep with people suddenly rising or falling dramatically and also comparing pre-draft projections with actual outcome. On the other hand there is also a lot of cases where pre-draft projections held up.

I have always found it too simplistic to simply say that because TD was a 6th round pick and umpteenth RB drafted that year and he was great, that means everybody who didn't predict his success is wrong and anything they say is BS. On the other hand it is also too easy to simply point to some mock drafts and say, this player was a 7th round pick so it was a reach.

I bet you that during the draft there were people who wanted to draft Duron Harmon or Kayvon Webster or some other guy who was perceived to be a huge reach, but they got beaten to the punch by a team that "reached" - of course that doesn't mean it happens with every guy who is a perceived reach, some of that is just due to bad drafting.

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now, firstly the team has been very successful the last 2 years and secondly there just aren't that many spots on the team that could be improved massively, so even the players they miss on probably won't be too big a deal right now.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:00 PM   #149
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This pick reminds me of another 3rd rd CB pick....Karl Paymah.

Good size\speed #s. Considered aggresive at the POA. Questionable instincts. Considered a reach.

I just hope that Med is as wrong with Webster as he was with Paymah.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:11 PM   #150
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all these people keep saying we didn't need a QB draftee with Manning on board...
do people not remember than Manning himself asked Elway about the back up and who it would be? because he didn't want to see what happened to Indy happen to Denver if he got hurt and couldn't play.

getting a QB of the future who can eventually step in and play was a priority for Manning and the Broncos.
it was needed then and it's important that we've addressed it now and not in 2-3 years.
even better that we were able to take a luxury pick in the 7th round for a QB who some had rated at the 2nd-4th QB in the draft.
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