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Old 04-19-2013, 11:55 PM   #451
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The tree of progress must be watered and fertilized with aborted fetuses. If there are no abortions, there is no progress.
WTF Really?
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:02 AM   #452
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So what about the story?
Snopes
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:03 AM   #453
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Not Tiller. He was sheltered by the left and then lionized. Apparently a guy has to clog toilets with infant parts before some people will start to get concerned.
So, you believe his assassination was a Good Thing? Roeder should be hailed as a hero instead of languishing in prison for murder?

Go on...

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Shouldn't it be?
Your tactics are all wrong to meet that goal.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:37 AM   #454
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So what about the story?
Post# 452. Story debunked.
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Old 04-20-2013, 04:17 PM   #455
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As someone who is anti-abortion except in cases of rape, incest or health/life of the mother, a question occurs to me. I'm wondering if the conservatives here understand that, if you actually take a look at WHO is getting abortions, it is highly likely that the vast majority of those 50 million+ fetuses would end up in the public dole. I mean lets face it, rich white girls aren't the ones getting abortions in this country.

Does that mean we just just kill them? Hell no. Let me repeat: I am against abortion in all instances except those few and extremely rare exceptions. But I am not for outlawing abortion at his point, not just because it's not my body, because on its own that is a pretty weak argument.

All us liberals are saying is that when you look at the big picture, when you consider that people from different socioeconomic backgrounds do not yet have the same chance in this country, that certain proven methods of preventing teenage and unwanted pregnancy (I.e. NOT abstinence-only sex education) are not being taught effectively or not being taught at all, that not every person has access to childcare, healthcare, etc.

You want to govern by ideology, but you don't live in the real world. If you outlaw abortion outright, but don't address these issues, the number of abortions will not drop, whether the procedure is legal or not, will not drop. Even if you really, truly believe that the poor are the cause of all their own problems, you still have to address the issues that your economic and social policies cause. If you don't, it's just empty rhetoric. We offer solutions, you offer shame and punishment.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:52 PM   #456
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you offer handouts not solutions. You keep the poor voting for you by scaring them into what life would be like under the mean Republicans who want you to have a good job and earn your money. Democrats only pretend to care about poor people. Its conservatives doing all the real charity. Liberals they want a govt job paying them 100 grand a yr to help the poor.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:04 PM   #457
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As someone who is anti-abortion except in cases of rape, incest or health/life of the mother, a question occurs to me. I'm wondering if the conservatives here understand that, if you actually take a look at WHO is getting abortions, it is highly likely that the vast majority of those 50 million+ fetuses would end up in the public dole. I mean lets face it, rich white girls aren't the ones getting abortions in this country.

Does that mean we just just kill them? Hell no. Let me repeat: I am against abortion in all instances except those few and extremely rare exceptions. But I am not for outlawing abortion at his point, not just because it's not my body, because on its own that is a pretty weak argument.

All us liberals are saying is that when you look at the big picture, when you consider that people from different socioeconomic backgrounds do not yet have the same chance in this country, that certain proven methods of preventing teenage and unwanted pregnancy (I.e. NOT abstinence-only sex education) are not being taught effectively or not being taught at all, that not every person has access to childcare, healthcare, etc.

You want to govern by ideology, but you don't live in the real world. If you outlaw abortion outright, but don't address these issues, the number of abortions will not drop, whether the procedure is legal or not, will not drop. Even if you really, truly believe that the poor are the cause of all their own problems, you still have to address the issues that your economic and social policies cause. If you don't, it's just empty rhetoric. We offer solutions, you offer shame and punishment.
if your reasoning for legalizing abortions is that we don't want any more people on welfare and being losers or are drug addicts or criminals then let's make this stand on abortion retroactive and shoot everybody that's on ****ing welfare, that is a criminal, and that is a loser....... but if we did that, who would ever vote Democrat?
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:08 PM   #458
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you offer handouts not solutions. You keep the poor voting for you by scaring them into what life would be like under the mean Republicans who want you to have a good job and earn your money. Democrats only pretend to care about poor people. Its conservatives doing all the real charity. Liberals they want a govt job paying them 100 grand a yr to help the poor.
What policies and laws have you supported which would ACTUALLY rduce the number of abortions? If banning guns doesn't stop gun violence, well, banning abortion, which so far is the only policy I have seen you support, won't do a lock either.

Since we're talking generalities here, conservatives are so concerned about what happens to a baby before it's born...they don't give two ****s about them once they are.

But keep sticking your head in the sand. Nothing the majority of your party supports actually does anything to prevent abortion. You just want to demonize the people who resort to such awful means without asking why. You assume to know the answer, claiming laziness, moral degeneration, and in the case of errand, txtebow, and nyuk, racial inferiority. It's the same reason we have surge a huge percentage of the population in prison. Do you really believe we have that many people in this nation who are just outright bad people? Studies show that upwards of 80% of prison inmates suffer from some form of addiction, yet only about 12% are treated for addiction. Instead if asking why, you will say "because you can make up an addiction for anything" or "you can rig the polls to say anything". You have an answer without even looking into it. You have the argument won in your own mind before it even begins.

Nope, not me. I'm pro-life. At least I'm consistent. I'm against abortion, against war, and against the death penalty. Go ahead and justify away your reasoning for the other two.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:15 PM   #459
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And you know what, cut? You're right. Our solutions may not necessarily be the right solutions, but at least we're acknowledging other correlative problems, not pretending they don't exist.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:17 PM   #460
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I'm not for the death penalty. Too many times govt gets it wrong. I am for prison reform where we segregate the gangs and races. The only mixed prisons should be the non violent prisoners who show a real fervor towards rehabiliation. The rest? Hard labor prisons you work as long as you can until you die. That would be for rapists, murderers, hard core career gang members etc.

I am against abortion in all cases except rape, incest, or the mothers life is at stake. Also maybe in cases where the baby is going to be severely disabled but even that is a slippery slope.

So you're against war? Who isn't? No one wants the world at war peace is way more fun. Sometimes though war is needed to get rid of tyrants who threaten America or world peace.

You are consistent though I will give you that.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:22 PM   #461
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So you claim most in prison because of addiction to drugs and your answer to this problem is to make drugs legal, cheaper, and more accessible? It's not my fault someone decides to be a drunk or a crack addict.

The only place to start is with the kids. I am also a big education guy but really the states do more of that then the feds do. I can't say why education not working in other states but in CA its obvious the teachers union is to blame. CA spends more per capita then a lot of countries and states who perform better then us. Teachers have 0 accountability once tenured.

It doesn't breed the best teachers getting the jobs IMO.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:03 PM   #462
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So you claim most in prison because of addiction to drugs and your answer to this problem is to make drugs legal, cheaper, and more accessible? It's not my fault someone decides to be a drunk or a crack addict.

The only place to start is with the kids. I am also a big education guy but really the states do more of that then the feds do. I can't say why education not working in other states but in CA its obvious the teachers union is to blame. CA spends more per capita then a lot of countries and states who perform better then us. Teachers have 0 accountability once tenured.

It doesn't breed the best teachers getting the jobs IMO.
Have you forgotten the impeachable George Bush and his No Child left Alive... ah Behind?
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:42 AM   #463
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Have you forgotten the impeachable George Bush and his No Child left Alive... ah Behind?
That program was a disaster. It left the guidlines up to the states and they gamed the system big time. I agree a total failure. States spent so much trying to comply it offset and federal money they got in return. It was a good idea to try and make schools accountable and provide access for poorer kids to get more help and I do believe Bush had his heart in the right spot. I know, you think hes evil and probably was hoping it would crush the unions somehow or lead to vouchers.
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:12 AM   #464
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You want to govern by ideology, but you don't live in the real world. If you outlaw abortion outright, but don't address these issues, the number of abortions will not drop, whether the procedure is legal or not, will not drop. Even if you really, truly believe that the poor are the cause of all their own problems, you still have to address the issues that your economic and social policies cause. If you don't, it's just empty rhetoric. We offer solutions, you offer shame and punishment.
^ This is what any rational, reasonable, intelligent person understands. It's interesting to me that the same people who are so concerned about the unwanted unborn care so little about the unwanted born.
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:24 AM   #465
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^ This is what any rational, reasonable, intelligent person understands. It's interesting to me that the same people who are so concerned about the unwanted unborn care so little about the unwanted born.
More or less, though I wouldn't phrase it "unwanted born", because that phrasing causes animosity from the right, and isn't truly representative of the situation...I would put it "unable to be cared for".

Seriously, though...I have yet to hear a cogent argument of how we should help children who are born to parents out of wedlock, or who are unable to care for them one reason or another. The answer is always "well the parents never should have..." which is a nice sentiment, but completely ignores not only the problem, but the need for a solution. Then they go back to complaining about taxes and crime, not seeing the irony at all.

I would imagine if we asked the question "Is the primary purpose of incarceration for punishment or rehabilitation?", we could see pretty clearly where people stand on actually solving issues vs. just complaining about them.
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:45 AM   #466
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^ This is what any rational, reasonable, intelligent person understands. It's interesting to me that the same people who are so concerned about the unwanted unborn care so little about the unwanted born.

The area to focus on is contraceptives. Prevention of pregnancy is the best first line of defense against horrid abortions. Just look at the word itself; To abort a life. Does that not appall you? ABORT A LIFE.

I should think all your social justifications for abortion would not even come up for consideration if you clear your mind and consider what is being done thousands of times a day, ABORTING A LIFE.

IT WOULD BE BETTER TO LEGALIZE REVERSIBLE STERILIZATION FOR PEOPLE THAT PROVE TO BE UNFIT TO PROCREATE. I know that is a very slippery slope but it is better than murder.
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:56 AM   #467
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The area to focus on is contraceptives. Prevention of pregnancy is the best first line of defense against horrid abortions. Just look at the word itself; To abort a life. Does that not appall you? ABORT A LIFE.
Just to be 100% clear, like houghtam I'm not "pro abortion" in any way, shape or form. But I do think the abortion rights issue is far more complex than many understand or are willing to admit. And in my post you're responding to I'm pointing out the blatant contradiction displayed by many of those who are so strongly against abortion rights but also strongly against any policy whose aim is to help those in need. Abortion is largely a socioeconomic issue.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:03 AM   #468
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The area to focus on is contraceptives. Prevention of pregnancy is the best first line of defense against horrid abortions. Just look at the word itself; To abort a life. Does that not appall you? ABORT A LIFE.

I should think all your social justifications for abortion would not even come up for consideration if you clear your mind and consider what is being done thousands of times a day, ABORTING A LIFE.

IT WOULD BE BETTER TO LEGALIZE REVERSIBLE STERILIZATION FOR PEOPLE THAT PROVE TO BE UNFIT TO PROCREATE. I know that is a very slippery slope but it is better than murder.
Thank you so much for proving my point, baja. Here I thought I was going to rely on cut or dr. Brownstain or (shudder) nyuk to come up with a one-sided, myopic, ignorant response.

Sure, lets sterilize them. What will this do to prevent further unplanned pregnancies by other couples? What will this do to actually help the child?

We all know that people who get abortions are just waiting to get pregnant again so they can go kill another fetus. Still doesnt address the actual issue, which is we now have yet another new life in the world that a parent cannot care for.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:04 AM   #469
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Just to be 100% clear, like houghtam I'm not "pro abortion" in any way, shape or form. But I do think the abortion rights issue is far more complex than many understand or are willing to admit. And in my post you're responding to I'm pointing out the blatant contradiction displayed by many of those who are so strongly against abortion rights but also strongly against any policy whose aim is to help those in need. Abortion is largely a socioeconomic issue.
Have you ever heard of the concept that if you want more of something, subsidize it? Single parenting is far from ideal. And money will never make it so.

Unfortunately murder isn't the answer either.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:10 AM   #470
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Have you ever heard of the concept that if you want more of something, subsidize it? Single parenting is far from ideal. And money will never make it so.

Unfortunately murder isn't the answer either.
Agree. But, outlawing abortion doesn't solve the problem. Further, it creates more problems.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:17 AM   #471
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Have you ever heard of the concept that if you want more of something, subsidize it? Single parenting is far from ideal. And money will never make it so.
Neither will forcing couples to remain married for "the sake of the children".

No, I've never been divorced. Married for 18+ years.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:18 AM   #472
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Agree. But, outlawing abortion doesn't solve the problem. Further, it creates more problems.
And, it is still subscribing to the "blame the parents" philosophy which provides absolutely no relief to the poor, innocent child they claimed to care so much about just a few minutes before, when it was still in the womb.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:32 AM   #473
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Thank you so much for proving my point, baja. Here I thought I was going to rely on cut or dr. Brownstain or (shudder) nyuk to come up with a one-sided, myopic, ignorant response.

Sure, lets sterilize them. What will this do to prevent further unplanned pregnancies by other couples? What will this do to actually help the child?

We all know that people who get abortions are just waiting to get pregnant again so they can go kill another fetus. Still doesnt address the actual issue, which is we now have yet another new life in the world that a parent cannot care for.
I rarely respond to you because I think you are a disingenuous poster that primarily is interested in displaying your perceived high intellect for others to see and marvel at.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:36 AM   #474
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I rarely respond to you because I think you are a disingenuous poster that primarily is interested in displaying your perceived high intellect for others to see and marvel at.
Thank you for noticing?

How about you respond to Tony then? Or the entire liberal movement. We've been waiting for an answer for decades.

Still waiting.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:38 AM   #475
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Clearly the answer is to shift responsibility from the individual to the collective at the expense of productive citizens. It has worked so well for the children of the geat society.

Obviously I am not a pro choice supporter, but I agree there are times when a first or early second trimester abortion is understandable and/or medically indicated. Someone gets pregnant from rape / incest... comletely understandable. Someone gets diagnosed with rectal adenocarcinoma and needs neoadjuvant chemo/ radiation prior to a low anterior resection and they are less than 20 wks pregnant... medically indicated (and I've been there having that discussion).

What is not acceptable to me is abortion as a retroactive birth control method, perceived financial hardship avoidence method, or as a means to somehow prevent future poverty and crime. I realize this is incompatible with liberal thought, but sexual intercourse has consequences. You take risk of creating another life when you have vaginal intercourse to completion. The mechanism is well understood and is not rocket science. There are any number of methods to lessen the risk of pregnancy, but none are completley effective. Bottom line.. You take on the responsibility for your actions. If you happen to get pregnant, try something novel like trying to raise your child with the involvement of the father. Or maybe give the child up to any number of couples willing to adopt and care for your child.
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