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Old 04-12-2013, 06:52 PM   #276
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now tell me how these requirements are considered Mickey Mouse?
The part where there is no requirement whatsoever to demonstrate competency with the weapon beyond the ability to shoot a few rounds at a range (which isn't even required in many CO counties which accept hunter's safety courses where only bb guns, at most, are shot.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:31 PM   #277
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The part where there is no requirement whatsoever to demonstrate competency with the weapon beyond the ability to shoot a few rounds at a range (which isn't even required in many CO counties which accept hunter's safety courses where only bb guns, at most, are shot.
Do you really think people who own guns just shoot them once or twice and then lock them away for ever?

my daughters and I go to the gun range twice a week....

Amazing how you call us all gun nuts..

but think about what the term means..... in your mind it means we have an unhealthy relationship with or attachment to guns..... but you think that these people won't actually go out and shoot them and practice and take the training seriously?

people who get carry conceal permits are not people who bought a gun yesterday and just fired it once or twice today..... they basically make shooting guns a 2nd career

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Old 04-12-2013, 09:11 PM   #278
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Do you really think people who own guns just shoot them once or twice and then lock them away for ever?

my daughters and I go to the gun range twice a week....
Even shooting at a range every day, burning through thousands of rounds a week won't prepare you for actual urban combat situations. Hell, it doesn't even do much for situations where your life isn't on the line like elk hunting.

Competent handling of the weapon itself is requisite, but far, far from sufficient to learning how to fight with that weapon effectively.

An ex-military guy as you claim to be should understand that.

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but you think that these people won't actually go out and shoot them and practice and take the training seriously?
Some do, many don't. Many *think* they take it seriously (e.g. they think shooting at a range frequently is 'taking it seriously'), but in reality they simply don't understand what the real skills required are.

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people who get carry conceal permits are not people who bought a gun yesterday and just fired it once or twice today..... they basically make shooting guns a 2nd career
Apparently you don't know many folks who have a concealed carry. The universe of people who have concealed carry is not limited to 'career gun nuts'.
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:17 PM   #279
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Imagine if the only thing you had to do to get a motor vehicle driver's license was demonstrate that you could fill the tires of a toy tricycle and ride it in a padded room for 10 ft without falling off.
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Old 04-13-2013, 02:59 AM   #280
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Imagine if the only thing you had to do to get a motor vehicle driver's license was demonstrate that you could fill the tires of a toy tricycle and ride it in a padded room for 10 ft without falling off.
Umm thats about all you have to do. Cmon the drivers tests are a joke.
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:06 AM   #281
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driving a car = going to the range
driving a race car 200 mph = having to actually shoot while being shot at

Still though until people can show me instances where people with concealed carry permits have made incidents worst by shooting innocent people I don't see what the issue is. Also since very few americans murdered with assault rifles that also is such a non issue I find it amusing how much play it gets. Our country really is the theater of the absurd sometimes. Crack down on illegal sales of handguns. That is where there is a lot of area to save lives and make us safer.

But just background checks won't work. You have to crack down with harsher punishments for felons caught with weapons of any sort. If your a felon and we find a gun on you guess what? 25 yrs in prison buddy. See ya later.

Also reform prisons so that violent offenders go do hard labor. Offset that by not throwing people in for drugs unless they used a weapon at the same time. Drug dealer caught with no gun = non violent prison where there is an attempt to rehab the prisoner. IE schools, therapy, drug rehab. Caught with a gun = off to the coal mine prison where you mine coal 12 hours a day for 25 yrs, or life if you kill someone.

But just making some stupid background check for private sales and a clip size law is silly and won't help anything.
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:09 AM   #282
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Imagine if the only thing you had to do to get a motor vehicle driver's license was demonstrate that you could fill the tires of a toy tricycle and ride it in a padded room for 10 ft without falling off.
you could almost say that the accidents in both cars and guns come from the fact they both are considered something everyone should get a chance to own if they want lol. Almost 90% of driving fatalties are driver error. Only a few road conditions or equipment failure to blame out of every 1000 crashes.

Maybe we should make it a lot tougher to get a drivers license. The amount dead a yr is staggering. Really if saving lives the goal i would try and make the roads safer before i thought a 10 round clip size would do anything.
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:59 AM   #283
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Maybe we should make it a lot tougher to get a drivers license. The amount dead a yr is staggering. Really if saving lives the goal i would try and make the roads safer before i thought a 10 round clip size would do anything.
More are killed by drunken drivers than are murdered by guns and nobody has a peep to say about it and nobody who cries about gun deaths is demanding similar laws on booze they want on guns such as size limits of bottles, quantity limits purchased, and licensing and background checks for booze purchases.

They're either alcoholics or have been so steeped in anti-gun propaganda they can't see the forest for the trees.

Nothing justifies this anti-gun hysteria.

If it was truly about saving lives, they'd focus most on where most lives are lost and it simply is not guns. It's not about dead people, it's about guns and using dead people as a pretext to restrict guns.
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Old 04-13-2013, 09:00 AM   #284
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The part where there is no requirement whatsoever to demonstrate competency with the weapon beyond the ability to shoot a few rounds at a range (which isn't even required in many CO counties which accept hunter's safety courses where only bb guns, at most, are shot.
We don't even require that much to purchase alcohol yet nobody complains even though booze kills far more.
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Old 04-13-2013, 09:03 AM   #285
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nyuk's taken pictures at the Indy 500 so he knows he can drive in the race next month.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:56 PM   #286
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Even shooting at a range every day, burning through thousands of rounds a week won't prepare you for actual urban combat situations.



Competent handling of the weapon itself is requisite, but far, far from sufficient to learning how to fight with that weapon effectively.

An ex-military guy as you claim to be should understand that.



Some do, many don't. Many *think* they take it seriously (e.g. they think shooting at a range frequently is 'taking it seriously'), but in reality they simply don't understand what the real skills required are.
I'm curious how many urban combat situations the following law abiding citizens who own guns have been in......Not to mention a vast majority of law enforcement officers have never been in a firefight either......


[] An Oklahoma City marine who was on leave suddenly began opening fire in the parking lot of his apartment complex late last year. Witnesses said he originally tried to go into the apartment complex’s main office, but after employees locked him out, he started to fire his gun in the parking lot. As he was firing, another citizen with a concealed handgun came around the corner and ordered him to drop his weapon. It worked and no one was hurt.

[] Just a few short days ago, 2 suspects walked into a restaurant to order food. When the employee opened the register, one of the men pulled a handgun and threatened the employees. The suspect then reached over the counter and grabbed the money. He then turned and pointed the gun toward the owner of the restaurant who was sitting at a table in the middle of the restaurant. The owner pulled out his own gun, shot the criminal in the chest, and killed him.

[] In November 2009, career criminal Kevin Duane Dudley walked into an Alabama business with a sawed-off shotgun to commit armed robbery. Thankfully, some shoppers were able to distract Dudley long off for the owner of the store to retrieve his gun and defend himself. The owner ended up shooting and killing the criminal. Dudley had been tied to several other robberies in the area as well as a recent murder.

[] When two masked men with guns broke into his home and pointed their weapons at one of the residents, Cody Buckler immediately took action. He retrieved his gun from upstairs and began shooting at the criminals. The crooks fled the scene, leaving a trail of blood behind them. The criminals were eventually apprehended.

[] In December 2007, Matthew Murray pledged he wanted to kill as many Christians as he could. The 24-year-old went to New Life Church in Colorado Springs and opened fire, killing 4 people in the process. Thankfully, an armed security guard was able to get his her weapon and shoot Murray several times, stopping him from killing any others. However, in the end, it was Murray’s own self-inflicted gunshot that ended up killing him.

[] In 2002, a shooting at Appalachian School of Law left 3 people dead. However, the shooter was stopped before he could kill any more people. Thankfully, 2 students were able to run to their cars, get their guns, and use their weapons to halt the rampage.

[] When 69-year-old Ethel Jones heard her doors rattling at 3 a.m., she grabbed her gun from underneath the pillow next to her. She ended up finding an intruder inside her bedroom, forcing her to shoot the teen in the abdomen. The teenager survived and faced charges of second-degree burglary.

[] An unnamed Pizza Hut delivery driver started carrying a legal concealed handgun to work after being robbed twice in the last 2 years. Just last week, he was robbed by 2 armed men inside the restaurant. The men pistol whipped him and as they started to lift the driver’s shirt exposing his gun, the worker pulled out his weapon and opened fire. He said he had no other choice but to act and save his life.


Cited from: 8 Horrible Crimes Stopped by Legal Gun Owners - nakedlaw.avvo.com

I don't understand how these people were able to take out or stop criminals with their guns despite having never been in urban fire fights and having live rounds whizzing around?

Training .....hell, human nature /self preservation kicks in......people who aren't pussies like yourself and W*Gs are, will do whatever they have to in order to defend/save their life and the lives of others.

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Old 04-13-2013, 06:17 PM   #287
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Still though until people can show me instances where people with concealed carry permits have made incidents worst by shooting innocent people I don't see what the issue is..
they won't, because there aren't that many if any at all.......not to mention the vast number of incidents where average law abiding citizens who own guns and have nowhere near the training military or law enforcement have, stopping thug after thug with their guns....hell 12 yr. old kids are doing it, and have no formal training in "urban combat" like Fedaykin and W*GS say is required to stop an armed thug.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:18 PM   #288
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I'm curious how many urban combat situations the following law abiding citizens who own guns have been in......
Doesn't matter. That some people in some situations do well even without training is neither surprising nor meaningful. I'll note however, that none of those situations cited were remotely on par with what happened in the theatre. All had vastly simplified requirements for situational awareness, target identification, bystanders, etc -- nor does it mention, at all, what actual training the individuals had.

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Not to mention a vast majority of law enforcement officers have never been in a firefight either......
No, but they do receive training on how to handle themselves in those situations. It's imperfect, but at least it exists.

Remember, you asked where the requirements were "mickey mouse". That you don't like that they are is fine -- but it makes them no less 'mickey mouse'.

That *some* people are responsible enough to receive proper training (even just in handling the weapon) does not mean that all do.

That *some* people have been successful in relatively straight forward situations does not mean all people will be successful in all situations.


But on the subject of background checks: they are pretty 'mickey mouse' too. All they do is verify that you haven't been caught committing a crime and that you don't have a history of various judgement impairing activities/diseases.

I've have to do more, on a continuous basis, just to get and keep a job with a private employer. Regular drug screenings, background checks that include full disclosure of financials, health records, etc.

All to get a job doing IT work.

And you don't even want to know the hell some of my friends and one time colleagues who work for government/contractors had to go through.

And just FYI, I'm not arguing that CCW should be different than it is, only that the requirements to get a CCW are indeed 'mickey mouse'.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:22 PM   #289
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amazing how clowns like W*GS and Fedaykin, who do not own guns and wouldn't lift a hand to stop a violent crime from happening have the unmitigated gall to tell those of us who do own guns, who fire them regularly, and have had training what the required skills are needed to take out a thug....
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #290
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Doesn't matter. That some people in some situations do well even without training is neither surprising nor meaningful. I'll note however, that none of those situations cited were remotely on par with what happened in the theatre. All had vastly simplified requirements for situational awareness, target identification, bystanders, etc -- nor does it mention, at all, what actual training the individuals had.
If it doesn't matter, then why did you say that urban combat experience was the gold standard of taking out a shooter? and while the article didn't give the level of experience of these citizens, I doubt they had very much if any "urban combat" experience


The theater is no different than any other situation...a bad guy with a gun started some SH......unfortunately for the victims, there wasn't a CCL citizen in the theater to give the shooter some IT

Just because unarmed people in the Aurora theater didn't take the shooter out/down (which is odd since JetMeck keeps telling us it's easy to do once the guy stops to reload, and the shooter's gun jammed, which meant he had to switch weapons) doesn't mean it couldn't have happened had someone who had a CCL was there that night, now does it?
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:37 PM   #291
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amazing how clowns like W*GS and Fedaykin, who do not own guns and wouldn't lift a hand to stop a violent crime from happening have the unmitigated gall to tell those of us who do own guns, who fire them regularly, and have had training what the required skills are needed to take out a thug....
LMAO I probably own as many, if not more guns that you do buddy. And I have a concealed carry permit, and I do my own reloading, and I regularly participate in various shooting activities like skeet shooting, range shooting, Elk hunting, etc. and will probably give some cowboy action shooting a shot this summer with my dad which looks like a whole lot of fun.

In fact, today I spent several hours decapping, resizing, trimming and repriming 80 spent 300WM casings I shot up over the last couple weeks.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:40 PM   #292
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But on the subject of background checks: they are pretty 'mickey mouse' too. All they do is verify that you haven't been caught committing a crime and that you don't have a history of various judgement impairing activities/diseases.

I've have to do more, on a continuous basis, just to get and keep a job with a private employer. Regular drug screenings, background checks that include full disclosure of financials, health records, etc.

All to get a job doing IT work.

And you don't even want to know the hell some of my friends and one time colleagues who work for government/contractors had to go through.
Then why all the uproar to have them?

And what information should our government have of people who are law abiding? Why should the government have access to my financials and health records for me to exercise my 2nd amendment right?
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:43 PM   #293
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Then why all the uproar to have them?
Better than nothing.

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And what information should our government have of people who are law abiding? Why should the government have access to my financials and health records for me to exercise my 2nd amendment right?
Did you not see the part where I explicitly said I am not arguing for that? or did you just start frothing with gun-nut induced rage at the mere discussion of various objective facts about what scrutiny concealed carry folks are put under?
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:47 PM   #294
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LMAO I probably own as many, if not more guns that you do buddy. And I have a concealed carry permit, and I do my own reloading, and I regularly participate in various shooting activities like skeet shooting, range shooting, Elk hunting, etc. and will probably give some cowboy action shooting a shot this summer with my dad which looks like a whole lot of fun.

In fact, today I spent several hours decapping, resizing, trimming and repriming 80 spent 300WM casings I shot up over the last couple weeks.

Well, if that's the case, I stand corrected......but you have to admit your constant whining and b****ing for gun control measures would lead one to believe otherwise.

I find it hard to believe that someone who enjoys guns as much as you claim would fight so hard to keep them out of the hands of those of us who are like yourself....law abiding citizens who have the right to own and carry them
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:04 PM   #295
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Well, if that's the case, I stand corrected
“When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.” ~ Oscar Wilde

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......but you have to admit your constant whining and b****ing for gun control measures would lead one to believe otherwise.
Where can I been constantly wining and b****ing for gun control measures? 90% of my discussion about the topic on those board is mostly related to showing how all the gun nuts and gun worshipers are ****ing clueless.

Clueless about the capabilities of various firearms (e.g. trying to say a typical semi-auto pistol has as much capability/lethal potential as a AR-15, just because they are both semi-auto) and idiots that think any old yokel is going to be capable of going into a complicated urban combat situation like a crowded, darkened theater filled with tear gas and come out successful having no training.

This is not to say that I have not argued for more gun control, but that does not equate to "whining and b****ing".

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I find it hard to believe that someone who enjoys guns as much as you claim would fight so hard to keep them out of the hands of those of us who are like yourself....law abiding citizens who have the right to own and carry them
Once again, not fighting to keep them out of people's hands. You should work on your reading comprehension.
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Old 04-14-2013, 04:22 AM   #296
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Not totally on topic but a homeless person set someone on fire 5 blocks from house last night at a 7-11. There are lots of crazy people out there and if a citizen with no criminal record wants to carry a gun i think we should be able to. Homeowners with no training sucessfully defend their homes all the time. People are capable of handling a lot more stress then liberals on this board seem to think. Sure it would be scary if you saw someone shooting up a mall or theater, but I think I would keep my head and only take my shot if i had a good one. I feel i am pretty average so i bet most people would do the same thing. Not like just because you have a carry permit you would go squeezing off rounds in a panic. A dark theater may be a place that you are really vulnerable and not much you can do but that doesn't mean concealed carry or open carry doesn't make criminals think twice about committing crimes. Just think how many crimes dont get attempted when they see a dude with a gun hanging from his waist. You go **** with someone else right?
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:45 AM   #297
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Doesn't matter. That some people in some situations do well even without training is neither surprising nor meaningful. I'll note however, that none of those situations cited were remotely on par with what happened in the theatre. All had vastly simplified requirements for situational awareness, target identification, bystanders, etc -- nor does it mention, at all, what actual training the individuals had.
Plans on visiting the theater? I was there yesterday to see Scary Movie V. It sucked.
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:48 AM   #298
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If it doesn't matter, then why did you say that urban combat experience was the gold standard of taking out a shooter? and while the article didn't give the level of experience of these citizens, I doubt they had very much if any "urban combat" experience


The theater is no different than any other situation...a bad guy with a gun started some SH......unfortunately for the victims, there wasn't a CCL citizen in the theater to give the shooter some IT

Just because unarmed people in the Aurora theater didn't take the shooter out/down (which is odd since JetMeck keeps telling us it's easy to do once the guy stops to reload, and the shooter's gun jammed, which meant he had to switch weapons) doesn't mean it couldn't have happened had someone who had a CCL was there that night, now does it?
And police agree.

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Old 04-14-2013, 08:05 PM   #299
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Our government is so hell bent on restricting guns to average citizens yet mini drones could easily be more destructive then any single American could ever be with 15 round magazine.

I dread the day one of these will be used in a terrorist attack. Google's CEO thinks so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22134898
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:55 PM   #300
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Our government is so hell bent on restricting guns to average citizens yet mini drones could easily be more destructive then any single American could ever be with 15 round magazine.

I dread the day one of these will be used in a terrorist attack. Google's CEO thinks so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22134898
Wasn't aware that the avg citizen couldn't pass a BG check.
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