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Old 04-10-2013, 11:42 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
that would make von miller happy

Look at this blurb from nfl.com


Weaknesses
Hand usage should improve with time, will allow better tackles to get their punch inside at times to knock him back a bit. Can play high, failing to anchor and getting knocked aside or to the ground by stronger linemen, especially when moving laterally. Still learning to use his flexibility to turn the corner consistently, and needs to use his spin move (and keep his balance during it) to prevent getting taken outside the pocket too often. More of a coordinated and fluid athlete than a downright explosive one. Doesn’t like to hold his ground and set the edge on runs at him, preferring to run himself upfield or dance around the block. A lot of his production and success came from slanting inside, is he a consistent edge threat? Lacks athletic upside.
NFL Comparison
Robert Ayers


http://www.drafttek.com/2013-NFL-Mock-Draft-Round1b.asp
I like Moore better than Carradine, he is more fluid and has better leverage but his athletic ability is very limited and I think that will compromise him as a player - he looks 100% like a pass rush specialist and not an every down player. Carradine plays very tall and rigid, his leverage is really bad and he tends to make his plays on the 2nd effort after he has been blocked initially, that is not going to be nearly as easy against NFL left tackles who tend to be much quicker than the average left tackle in college.

There are some pretty serious doubts about Moore's motivation and drive, he is rumored to be lazy and not putting in the time in the weight room, the practice field or the video room. I do think Von Miller may be the single best person to have on the team to show Moore how to do things, there is no doubt that Moore looked up to Miller at Texas A&M and I think Miller could push Moore to be his best.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:05 PM   #52
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I doubt the Broncos take Moore even if he's sitting there at 28. I notice Arthur Brown is taken by the Ravens at #32. If the Broncos have the choice between Brown and Moore I think they'd take Brown first, just a guess on my part.
Moore had 12 sacks last year. I think he'd be perfect for the opposite side of Miller.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:09 PM   #53
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I like Moore better than Carradine, he is more fluid and has better leverage but his athletic ability is very limited and I think that will compromise him as a player - he looks 100% like a pass rush specialist and not an every down player. Carradine plays very tall and rigid, his leverage is really bad and he tends to make his plays on the 2nd effort after he has been blocked initially, that is not going to be nearly as easy against NFL left tackles who tend to be much quicker than the average left tackle in college.

There are some pretty serious doubts about Moore's motivation and drive, he is rumored to be lazy and not putting in the time in the weight room, the practice field or the video room. I do think Von Miller may be the single best person to have on the team to show Moore how to do things, there is no doubt that Moore looked up to Miller at Texas A&M and I think Miller could push Moore to be his best.
With the depth Denver has a Pass rushing specialist would be fine with me. Denver needs a guy that can sack the QB. Wolfe, Ayers, Jackson can play the run downs.

Moore had a horrible combine that is why everyone is down on him. He was a top 10 pick before the combine, now he is horrible??
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:01 PM   #54
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Chris Clemons had one sack his junior year at UGA in 2002. He sat out his rookie year in 2003 with a knee injury. For his career he had seasons of 3, 2, 8, 4, and 3. Then in 2010 at the age of 29 he joined the Seahawks. He has recorded 11 sacks in three straight years. This idea that you are born to sack is overblown.
So, taking a rusher who didn't produce in college is a good idea because of one guy who was injured throughout much of college, went undrafted, then had success 7 years later, with his 4th team?
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:55 PM   #55
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With the depth Denver has a Pass rushing specialist would be fine with me. Denver needs a guy that can sack the QB. Wolfe, Ayers, Jackson can play the run downs.

Moore had a horrible combine that is why everyone is down on him. He was a top 10 pick before the combine, now he is horrible??
That is like saying someone was a really good student until you saw their grades which turned out to be ****. You can't evaluate a player without knowing every aspect of their abilities and it turns out Moore is an average athlete who is slow and lazy in the weight room but has a really strong first step and good leverage.

Just for reference, here is a list of some players who lifted the bench press bar more times than Damontre: Jay Cutler, Brady Quinn, Jimmy Smith, Quinton Carter, Omar Bolden. QBs, CBs and safeties should not have better upper body strength than a pass rusher, they just shouldn't.

I agree we could use a pass rush specialist and I like Moore as a draft pick, but I just don't think he will ever be a quality every down player.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:59 PM   #56
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With the depth Denver has a Pass rushing specialist would be fine with me. Denver needs a guy that can sack the QB. Wolfe, Ayers, Jackson can play the run downs.

Moore had a horrible combine that is why everyone is down on him. He was a top 10 pick before the combine, now he is horrible??
It is way more then just that. People that have been paying attention to the draft prior to this week already know that.

I might add I have nothing against him really either so should Denver draft him I'm on board with it. He just isn't my first choice.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:40 PM   #57
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That is like saying someone was a really good student until you saw their grades which turned out to be ****. You can't evaluate a player without knowing every aspect of their abilities and it turns out Moore is an average athlete who is slow and lazy in the weight room but has a really strong first step and good leverage.

Just for reference, here is a list of some players who lifted the bench press bar more times than Damontre: Jay Cutler, Brady Quinn, Jimmy Smith, Quinton Carter, Omar Bolden. QBs, CBs and safeties should not have better upper body strength than a pass rusher, they just shouldn't.

I agree we could use a pass rush specialist and I like Moore as a draft pick, but I just don't think he will ever be a quality every down player.
I don't want a quality every down player, I want a guy who is nails at putting the QB on the ground.

I don't know if that's Moore, and I completely trust Elway to decide, but I just don't care about the other aspects of his game, at least not with how this defense is currently constructed.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:41 PM   #58
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I like Corey Lemonier as a Doom replacement with upside. I think he'd be a better value than any of the first round options. He has natural pass rush ability, I love the effort he gives on every play.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:43 PM   #59
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I like Corey Lemonier as a Doom replacement with upside. I think he'd be a better value than any of the first round options. He has natural pass rush ability, I love the effort he gives on every play.
How do you pronounce his last name? Is it all Frenchy?
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:46 PM   #60
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I don't want a quality every down player, I want a guy who is nails at putting the QB on the ground.

I don't know if that's Moore, and I completely trust Elway to decide, but I just don't care about the other aspects of his game, at least not with how this defense is currently constructed.
The problem is that a guy who is not an every down player is not going to be putting the QB on the ground on 1st and 2nd downs. I hate using a 1st round pick on a guy who is not going to contribute on most plays.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:46 PM   #61
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How do you pronounce his last name? Is it all Frenchy?
No, it's pronounced like 'lemon' + 'ear'.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:48 PM   #62
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The problem is that a guy who is not an every down player is not going to be putting the QB on the ground on 1st and 2nd downs. I hate using a 1st round pick on a guy who is not going to contribute on most plays.
Where is it mandated that Doom's replacement has to be a first round guy?
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:56 PM   #63
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The problem is that a guy who is not an every down player is not going to be putting the QB on the ground on 1st and 2nd downs. I hate using a 1st round pick on a guy who is not going to contribute on most plays.
Why not? If we're playing more like a 3-4 or 5-2, why couldn't he play all downs? Hali is honestly pretty bad against the run, and he basically never leaves the field.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:16 PM   #64
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Where is it mandated that Doom's replacement has to be a first round guy?
If Dumervils replacement is Damontre Moore then he kind of has to be a 1st round pick unless every draft projection is incorrect and he somehow falls to the 2nd round....
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:19 PM   #65
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Why not? If we're playing more like a 3-4 or 5-2, why couldn't he play all downs? Hali is honestly pretty bad against the run, and he basically never leaves the field.
I hope it doesn't come to that, hopefully we can be better than the Chiefs that is setting the bar a bit low. On that note however, Hali has about 20 pounds more and better upper body strength than Moore, so that does highlight just how bleak things are looking for him as an every down player.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:02 AM   #66
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I loved me some Elvis, but if we land Damontre there's a decent chance we don't skip a beat.

This is insane ... he really HATES when people get in his way.


Talking about his connection with Von Miller and his family .... probably posted before.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:10 AM   #67
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I like Moore better than Carradine, he is more fluid and has better leverage but his athletic ability is very limited and I think that will compromise him as a player - he looks 100% like a pass rush specialist and not an every down player. Carradine plays very tall and rigid, his leverage is really bad and he tends to make his plays on the 2nd effort after he has been blocked initially, that is not going to be nearly as easy against NFL left tackles who tend to be much quicker than the average left tackle in college.

There are some pretty serious doubts about Moore's motivation and drive, he is rumored to be lazy and not putting in the time in the weight room, the practice field or the video room. I do think Von Miller may be the single best person to have on the team to show Moore how to do things, there is no doubt that Moore looked up to Miller at Texas A&M and I think Miller could push Moore to be his best.
Playing football is not about the weight room, it is not about running 40 yards on a track. It's about production on the field against some of the best teams in the country. Moore isn't strong, maybe he looks lazy because the game just comes easier to him. Sometimes its about knowing how to play. Playing with balance, determination, leverage, technique. He can get stronger if the problem is he is weak, haha that is the easiest thing to fix. Bring him to Denver with Miller and watch the pass rush.

He was a top ten pick before the combine. That means his production on the field is equal to a top ten player. I'll take on field performance over workout performance any day, especially if sitting at #28.


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Old 04-11-2013, 07:37 AM   #68
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I hope it doesn't come to that, hopefully we can be better than the Chiefs that is setting the bar a bit low. On that note however, Hali has about 20 pounds more and better upper body strength than Moore, so that does highlight just how bleak things are looking for him as an every down player.
Yes, I am not saying we should emulate the Chiefs, just giving an example of how deficiencies in run defense can be ignored if the player is an impact rusher. By the standards in your second sentence, Von should not be an every down player. I mean, Tamba also has 15 pounds on Doom.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:41 PM   #69
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We shall see. I think Ayers was just starting to come on last year. Sometimes it's really hard to shine when you are rotation material. Sometimes, you need that chance to be the full time starter. We saw that last year in Woodyard. Whether it's an injury or suspension to the starter, sometimes you don't know exactly what you have until you see a guy get those starter reps in practice and get the full time reps in games.

Ayers has an excellent DE build at 6'3 275 and has a really good first step. He only did 18 reps at his combine so not sure if that's gone up but I would say with adding the weight he has and being in an NFL training program for several years I would say that's probably gone up to about 23-25 reps. I think he's strong enough. Not as quick as Doom and his speed rush is not as refined as Doom's was. But he does play hard and he does get good pressure. It's just that in spot duty, he really didn't get all the way there on a regular basis. But I've said this before and it's worth repeating. You don't have to lead the league in sacks, as a player, or as a defense, to be great. If I'm not mistaken, the Ravens and the 49'ers were both average in total team sacks this year. Don't get me wrong, sacks are excellent. But getting 3rd down stops and goal line defense are much more important. I think this defense has a chance to improve in both those areas and I think they will. We might take a small dip in sacks, but I think the overall defense will be just as good if not improved.
With Wolfe's improvement this year between he and Ayers we will get the extra 11 sacks from last year beyond what Wolfe and Ayers contributed last year to make up for Doom on that front.

But dont forget Von is likely to push for 22 to 24 sacks this year with the added sync with Wolfe who is setting that edge and pushing the pocket as well.

Plus with Ayers and Wolfe not to mention Vickerson and Terrance collapsing the pocket much better than last year with a second season for Vickerson under JDR and Knighton already well seasoned in JDR defense, this will lead to significant improvements in over all Dline performance on both passing and running downs.

We were going to have a significant step up this year, Doom or no Doom. Without Doom we just have to go about it in a slighty different way, and should see dividends in better run game performance as well as short yardage and goal line work than with Doom in there.

Von will add more sacks as he continues to rocket up through the beginning peak years of his special talent as well, and Wolfe I think is gonna bust out in a big way this year.

We will add at least one more real player in the first three rounds in the draft along the Dline .. or maybe just at Middle linebacker. Malik Jackson will contribute as well in rotation. Im not worried much about our defense front seven.

Irving could grab the MLB job and not let it go for years, Steve Johnson is coming on as well and Bradley was a good cover LB for the Eagles so we have some options there.

Woodyard will be further improved after a year as a starter and we have his capable backup in his Kentucky buddy now with a year under his belt who will be pressing Woodyard starting this year.

The key is getting development and production out of prior draft years and not just expecting to hit a home run with each new drafted player this year. It takes time for most guys to hit their stride and to give up too soon and look for the next super man in the draft is short sighted and a prescription for failure long term.

We need another decent Corner as well as hope that Bolden is ready to rumble this year, and a safety plus a solid banger RB and we are set for a couple Lombardi runs.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:53 PM   #70
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With Wolfe's improvement this year between he and Ayers we will get the extra 11 sacks from last year beyond what Wolfe and Ayers contributed last year to make up for Doom on that front.
You think Wolfe and Ayers will combine for 19 sacks? Would you care to make a wager?
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:55 PM   #71
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I'd be ok with Moore at 28 but the only reason I'd be ok with this is because of Moore's connection to Von Miller. Moore's off the field situation should raise a lot of red flags but perhaps Miller can help Moore (along with other vets on the team and JDR) focus on being the best football player he can be, which includes his strength and conditioning and making good life decisions. Dude is a beast on the field, but if he can't maintain off the field it will definitely affect his career.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:26 PM   #72
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I suspect Malik Jackson will pass Ayers on the depth chart in pre-season ... if Jason Hunter can do it, Jackson can too. I realize he played very little last year, but looking back on the 2012 pre-season, they were very high on him.

And while we're thinking happy thoughts, Dwight Freeney will scale back his salary demands and sign, Damontre Moore will be our 1st round pick, and these nine guys will rock the house:



Damontre Moore / Malik Jackson
Dwight Freeney / Robert Ayers
Derek Wolfe
Kevin Vickerson / Mitch Unrein
Terrance Knighton / Sealver Siliga
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:04 PM   #73
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With Wolfe's improvement this year between he and Ayers we will get the extra 11 sacks from last year beyond what Wolfe and Ayers contributed last year to make up for Doom on that front.

But dont forget Von is likely to push for 22 to 24 sacks this year with the added sync with Wolfe who is setting that edge and pushing the pocket as well.

Plus with Ayers and Wolfe not to mention Vickerson and Terrance collapsing the pocket much better than last year with a second season for Vickerson under JDR and Knighton already well seasoned in JDR defense, this will lead to significant improvements in over all Dline performance on both passing and running downs.

We were going to have a significant step up this year, Doom or no Doom. Without Doom we just have to go about it in a slighty different way, and should see dividends in better run game performance as well as short yardage and goal line work than with Doom in there.

Von will add more sacks as he continues to rocket up through the beginning peak years of his special talent as well, and Wolfe I think is gonna bust out in a big way this year.

We will add at least one more real player in the first three rounds in the draft along the Dline .. or maybe just at Middle linebacker. Malik Jackson will contribute as well in rotation. Im not worried much about our defense front seven.

Irving could grab the MLB job and not let it go for years, Steve Johnson is coming on as well and Bradley was a good cover LB for the Eagles so we have some options there.

Woodyard will be further improved after a year as a starter and we have his capable backup in his Kentucky buddy now with a year under his belt who will be pressing Woodyard starting this year.

The key is getting development and production out of prior draft years and not just expecting to hit a home run with each new drafted player this year. It takes time for most guys to hit their stride and to give up too soon and look for the next super man in the draft is short sighted and a prescription for failure long term.

We need another decent Corner as well as hope that Bolden is ready to rumble this year, and a safety plus a solid banger RB and we are set for a couple Lombardi runs.
Biggest homer post of the week!!!
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:50 PM   #74
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Damontre Moore at 250 pounds had 19 bench press reps at his Pro Day. Robert Ayers had 18 reps and he is a 270-pound DE. I don't understand this infatuation with the bench press. Warren Sapp is a HoF DT and he did 17 reps. Where are those guys with 40, 45 reps? There are so many things involved in playing football... Leverage, angles, explosion, technique. I did not see Moore being pancaked like Margus Hunt, who is a workout freak but is still learning how to play football.

What Moore has is a slow 40-yard dash, and it's not an unacceptable time. A 250-pound guy with 4.8 speed sounds like many LBs in the league. His vertical jump was fine, his broad jump was fine, his 3-cone drill was excellent. If he has a poor work ethic, these numbers are not showing. I don't care if he is less of a weight room guy and more of an agility/quickness guy. If he works on his functional strength to play the position, he will be fine. Just because he did not impress at the bench press it does not mean he sits on the couch and watches TV all day. He can run cone drills, do some MMA training, he can do a lot of stuff. If he really is a mess off the field, it's not just because of the weight room.

Here's a raw Margus Hunt, track speed and 38 bench press reps, playing against Texas A&M:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBBKibXTrs

Moore practiced against these guys quite often and had to face an SEC schedule. I don't see him being physically destroyed during games.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:55 PM   #75
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Denver Broncos: Montee Ball, RB, Wisconsin
John Fox is not shy about using early selections on running backs. He needs one. Willis McGahee is old, Knowshon Moreno can't be trusted, and Ronnie Hillman's just a chance-of-pace back.

Montee Ball, 5-11/214

Running Back

Wisconsin
Strengths: Excellent vision
Good balance
Body lean
Patient runner
Intelligence
Finishes runs well
Can pick up some yards after contact
Good feet
Nice cutting ability
Ready to contribute in the NFL
Strong ball security
Decisive runner
Stamina
Experienced



Summary: Ball's career at Wisconsin has him as one of the most productive running backs in the history of college football. He was a touchdown machine for the Badgers as churned his way into the end zone at a record pace. The team fielded a powerful offensive line and Ball ran behind them to make history.

While splitting carries with John Clay and James White, Ball came on like gangbusters late in the 2010 season for the Badgers with five straight 100-yard games with a total of 777 yards in those five contests. He was third on the team in rushing with 996 yards, but Ball led the Badgers with 18 touchdowns.

That was nothing compared to what he did in 2011 when Ball was a finalist for the Heisman Trophy. He ran for 1,923 yards, averaging 6.3 yards per carry and 33 touchdowns rushing. Ball also caught 24 passes for 306 yards and six scores. His 39 total touchdowns were one of the most prolific season totals in college football history, putting him next to Barry Sanders in the record books.

Heading into his senior season, Wisconsin lost a ton of good talent in the form of center Peter Konz, guard Kevin Zeitler, its offensive line coach, its offensive coordinator, quarterback Russell Wilson and wide receiver Nick Toon. As a result, Ball started out slowly before heating up in conference play. He averaged 5.2 yards per carry on his way to 1,830 yards and 22 touchdowns in 2012.

Ball had huge games against Purdue, Minnesota, Indiana and Nebraska. He had a costly fumble against Ohio State on the goal line in the fourth quarter. Ball also had a fumble late in the fourth quarter to end Wisconsin's hopes of tying Nebraska.

One drawback to all that production is Ball took a lot of hits in college and enters the NFL with a significant amount of wear-and-tear. Ball is a tough runner but doesn't physically run over tacklers. However, he is very smart and decisive. Ball runs with excellent vision, balance and pad level.

The most critical issue with Ball is if he has enough speed to be effective in the NFL. Ball is not a burner, but he hit the hole before it closed in college. A big question is if Ball has enough burst to do that in the NFL. He is not a threat to score on every carry as there are plenty of defensive players who are faster than him. Ball had a very slow Combine 40 time of 4.66 seconds, so the speed concerns are legitimate

Ball would be best at the next level as a rotational back who is part of a stable. He probably won't be three-down starter in the NFL. In the proper role, Ball could be a contributor. He should be a third-day pick in this writer's opinion, but it sounds like he will go as high as the second round.
I stand by this one as well.
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