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Old 04-04-2013, 01:09 PM   #101
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That was before the 2013 season, how does that hold any value to what we are discussing?
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:31 PM   #102
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Rob Burnett was 290+ lbs. He might have been 270 when he first came into the league 10 years prior. When they let him go after 2000, they installed Marquise Douglas to play DE and two gap. He also was 290+ lbs.

It's the same scheme. They even lined McCrary out wide like we did with Dumervil.

They also moved Burnett inside, like we do with Wolfe, on passing downs. And they would move Boulware or Adailus Thomas to DE.

It's the same scheme. To the tee.

Woodyard is Jamie Sharper, but what we are missing is a 3 down MIKE. We tried to use Joe Mays as a 3 down MIKE to start the season but then we benched him and we couldn't use Brooking that many snaps. So, Trevathan sub'd in on passing downs. We want a 3 down MIKE for this scheme. Maybe Steven Johnson or Nate Irving can become that guy, I doubt it. There's not many in this draft, I'm not sure about Te'o and Minter. Arthur Brown and Jon Bostic are the two best options. Brown would require a 1st Rounder, Bostic a 2nd.

That's what we are missing. A starting 3 down MIKE LB. And some depth at RDE, SLB, and SS. We could draft Eric Martin in the 4th round and he'd provide depth behind Miller and give us another rushing threat. We can pick up a DE, SS, and MLB in the first three rounds. And we can draft some WR depth in the 5th and 7th.

1. RB Eddie Lacy
2. LB Jon Bostic
3. SS Shawn Williams
4. LB/DE Eric Martin
5. WR Josh Boyce
7. WR Conner Vernon


That's my offseason plan. Leave everything as is, draft those guys. The first two start. The middle two play a ton in subpackages. The last two play special teams and provide depth.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:48 PM   #103
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That was before the 2013 season, how does that hold any value to what we are discussing?
Well it was a response to your questioning someone's talent evaluation acumen. Meanwhile you would've paid $6+ for 5 sacks and 12 tackles last season. Doom's original $12 million deal would look like a bargain in comparison.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:31 PM   #104
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Rob Burnett was 290+ lbs. He might have been 270 when he first came into the league 10 years prior. When they let him go after 2000, they installed Marquise Douglas to play DE and two gap. He also was 290+ lbs.

It's the same scheme. They even lined McCrary out wide like we did with Dumervil.

They also moved Burnett inside, like we do with Wolfe, on passing downs. And they would move Boulware or Adailus Thomas to DE.

It's the same scheme. To the tee.
You seem pretty knowledgeable, but I'm having trouble matching your comments about JDR's time in Baltimore with reality.

This is Rob Burnett in the Super Bowl in January 2001. For comparison, that is Ray Lewis next to him:



Also, Burnett was with the Ravens through 2001, the same as JDR.

Marques Douglas did not play any significant time until 2003, two years after JDR left. Anthony Weaver was 290 and played LDE in 2002, but JDR was in Carolina at that point.

The entire time JDR was in Baltimore, they had 2 prototypical DEs.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:10 PM   #105
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You seem pretty knowledgeable, but I'm having trouble matching your comments about JDR's time in Baltimore with reality.

This is Rob Burnett in the Super Bowl in January 2001. For comparison, that is Ray Lewis next to him:



Also, Burnett was with the Ravens through 2001, the same as JDR.

Marques Douglas did not play any significant time until 2003, two years after JDR left. Anthony Weaver was 290 and played LDE in 2002, but JDR was in Carolina at that point.

The entire time JDR was in Baltimore, they had 2 prototypical DEs.

I was going off the top of my head, but since you annoyed me so much with doubting this, I decided to spend some time digging through the internet about the Ravens during JDR's time there.

And you're right on this. I was wrong. The defensive end concept I'm remembering were the years after JDR left for Carolina.

The only value or relation that JDR's time in Baltimore has to the current Broncos is that he saw what a Rush LB (Boulware) could do in a 43 defense.

The scheme we are running now is similar to what the Seattle Seahawks run, but I don't think JDR has any connection to them. And they do use a DT at LDE (Red Bryant) to two gap, while Chris Clemons moves all over the place.

Regardless of being wrong about the correct positional scheme Baltimore ran in 2000 concerning it's Left Defensive End on base downs, it is important to note that whether it be Baltimore, Carolina, or Jacksonville, Del Rio appeared to prefer having 330+ lb DTs inside. Wolfe will never be close to that big. I think Wolfe stays at Left End on base downs while moving inside on passing downs. The signing of Knighton and fattening up of Vickerson shows that Del Rio still wants his DTs at 330+ lbs. Wolfe's only role in this defense is at LDE on run downs while sliding inside on passing downs.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:49 PM   #106
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Well it was a response to your questioning someone's talent evaluation acumen. Meanwhile you would've paid $6+ for 5 sacks and 12 tackles last season. Doom's original $12 million deal would look like a bargain in comparison.
I have never suggested getting rid of Doom. But I am trying to come up with ways to improve the pass rush, not dwell on what happened.
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:18 PM   #107
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Rob Burnett was 290+ lbs. He might have been 270 when he first came into the league 10 years prior. When they let him go after 2000, they installed Marquise Douglas to play DE and two gap. He also was 290+ lbs.

It's the same scheme. They even lined McCrary out wide like we did with Dumervil.

They also moved Burnett inside, like we do with Wolfe, on passing downs. And they would move Boulware or Adailus Thomas to DE.

It's the same scheme. To the tee.

Woodyard is Jamie Sharper, but what we are missing is a 3 down MIKE. We tried to use Joe Mays as a 3 down MIKE to start the season but then we benched him and we couldn't use Brooking that many snaps. So, Trevathan sub'd in on passing downs. We want a 3 down MIKE for this scheme. Maybe Steven Johnson or Nate Irving can become that guy, I doubt it. There's not many in this draft, I'm not sure about Te'o and Minter. Arthur Brown and Jon Bostic are the two best options. Brown would require a 1st Rounder, Bostic a 2nd.

That's what we are missing. A starting 3 down MIKE LB. And some depth at RDE, SLB, and SS. We could draft Eric Martin in the 4th round and he'd provide depth behind Miller and give us another rushing threat. We can pick up a DE, SS, and MLB in the first three rounds. And we can draft some WR depth in the 5th and 7th.

1. RB Eddie Lacy
2. LB Jon Bostic
3. SS Shawn Williams
4. LB/DE Eric Martin
5. WR Josh Boyce
7. WR Conner Vernon


That's my offseason plan. Leave everything as is, draft those guys. The first two start. The middle two play a ton in subpackages. The last two play special teams and provide depth.
I appreciate what you're saying here but that would leave us in a position where Jeremy Beal or Malik Jackson would be one injury away from starting.

I would much rather have real depth along the DL from the draft this year rather than starting a rookie LB.
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:27 PM   #108
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we NEED to sign another vet DE. Draft one, try to get someone dynamic, but I'd still like a vet pass rusher in here...and we have plenty of money to get one.
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:43 PM   #109
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McBean? Or would he not count as being in the base defense?
Ayers had one at 5-tech against the Chargers in 2011.

Ayers was starting to show flashes on the strongside at the end of 2011, then JDR benched him and switched his position to RDE.


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Because if you read the post I spoke about moving Von to the right side on passing downs and drafting a SOLB with a Von like skill set. This allows you to be more creative with your pass rush and makes the offensive line think more.
Bad idea. The only 3-4 guy the Broncos have is Von Miller. Wolfe plays a decent 5-tech, but can't really get any pressure from there. Maybe he'll improve, but who knows. Still need a 0-tech, and another 5-tech to convert to a 3-4.

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And I named that I think there are only a few positions where a rookie would come in and start anyway. So what makes you think any pick will be a day 1 starter, three down player? And name that position!
RDE, MLB. Whoever they pick in the 1st round better be able to come in and play 3-downs right away. The Broncos have holes.

Any player you draft in the 1st round should be capable of being a 3-down Pro Bowl guy.

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The scheme we are running now is similar to what the Seattle Seahawks run, but I don't think JDR has any connection to them. And they do use a DT at LDE (Red Bryant) to two gap, while Chris Clemons moves all over the place.

Regardless of being wrong about the correct positional scheme Baltimore ran in 2000 concerning it's Left Defensive End on base downs, it is important to note that whether it be Baltimore, Carolina, or Jacksonville, Del Rio appeared to prefer having 330+ lb DTs inside. Wolfe will never be close to that big. I think Wolfe stays at Left End on base downs while moving inside on passing downs. The signing of Knighton and fattening up of Vickerson shows that Del Rio still wants his DTs at 330+ lbs. Wolfe's only role in this defense is at LDE on run downs while sliding inside on passing downs.
Tyson Alualu is 295 lbs. Hell, JDR even had Ty Warren (who is the exact same size as Wolfe) starting at 3-tech before he was injured. Justin Bannan is the exact same size as Wolfe. Brandon Mebane isn't a 2-gapper in Seattle either. Mebane is one of the NFL's best 1-tech's, but Seattle has him playing 3-tech (out of position). JDR is now trying to copy that. Which I think, is stupid. You should be able to get pressure up the middle out of base Defense. The Broncos can't do that.

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Old 04-04-2013, 04:47 PM   #110
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I have never suggested getting rid of Doom. But I am trying to come up with ways to improve the pass rush, not dwell on what happened.
Fair enough. But I wouldn't really consider a week or two during offseason mode dwelling. At this point nothing's gonna give until draft day.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:04 PM   #111
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Fair enough. But I wouldn't really consider a week or two during offseason mode dwelling. At this point nothing's gonna give until draft day.
Exactly. This crap just happened, and I'm pissed off. It's not just like 'Oh Bob Ayers can do it'. Let's move on.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:08 PM   #112
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:38 PM   #113
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I was going off the top of my head, but since you annoyed me so much with doubting this, I decided to spend some time digging through the internet about the Ravens during JDR's time there.

And you're right on this. I was wrong. The defensive end concept I'm remembering were the years after JDR left for Carolina.

The only value or relation that JDR's time in Baltimore has to the current Broncos is that he saw what a Rush LB (Boulware) could do in a 43 defense.

The scheme we are running now is similar to what the Seattle Seahawks run, but I don't think JDR has any connection to them. And they do use a DT at LDE (Red Bryant) to two gap, while Chris Clemons moves all over the place.

Regardless of being wrong about the correct positional scheme Baltimore ran in 2000 concerning it's Left Defensive End on base downs, it is important to note that whether it be Baltimore, Carolina, or Jacksonville, Del Rio appeared to prefer having 330+ lb DTs inside. Wolfe will never be close to that big. I think Wolfe stays at Left End on base downs while moving inside on passing downs. The signing of Knighton and fattening up of Vickerson shows that Del Rio still wants his DTs at 330+ lbs. Wolfe's only role in this defense is at LDE on run downs while sliding inside on passing downs.
Well, I'm glad I annoyed you so much. Apparently I'm good at it.

The other problem I have with the idea that Wolfe must remain at LDE is that without an injury last preseason, our starting LDE would have been 271 pounds. Also, the huge fatties that JDR used were inherited. When he drafted a DT early, he went smaller.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:06 PM   #114
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Move on.
Words to live by
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:48 PM   #115
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While everyone is hoping that DRC is the starter and good player, last couple of years have shown he can struggle big time and his position on the depth chart can fall pretty fast if another player shows up.
Let's hope the struggles are because of a poor scheme fit and disinterest in playing for a losing team..
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:58 PM   #116
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You seem pretty knowledgeable, but I'm having trouble matching your comments about JDR's time in Baltimore with reality.

This is Rob Burnett in the Super Bowl in January 2001. For comparison, that is Ray Lewis next to him:



Also, Burnett was with the Ravens through 2001, the same as JDR.

Marques Douglas did not play any significant time until 2003, two years after JDR left. Anthony Weaver was 290 and played LDE in 2002, but JDR was in Carolina at that point.

The entire time JDR was in Baltimore, they had 2 prototypical DEs.
Has it been mentioned that JDR was never the DC in Baltimore? If you talk about his defenses I think you have to look at Jax.
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:06 PM   #117
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Its not that I don't like Wolfe as a 5-tech DE type, I just think that Del Rio and Fox are trying to evolve their scheme and that will require the ability to generate more up the middle pass rush on demand. Knighton and Vickerson aren't going to do that, and hell, Vickerson is probably only a Bronco for another couple years at best anyhow.

Del Rio made multiple references to wanting Wolfe's pass rush game on the inside more often, but that Wolfe needs to grow into that kind of body. Mat'hir's comment about Baltimore's D with Boulware is a valid model, but it isn't 100% that and Del Rio wasn't even the DC there.

I think that instead of running two hogs with two 265 pound ends that Del Rio is now shooting for one hog, one versatile DT, a LDE with some size to run interference for Miller, and a good pass rusher at RDE.

With that we can seamlessly rotate between a 4-3 base, a Steelers style 3-4 (more like a 5-2), or go nickel with a 3-3 or 4-2, depending on down and distance with minimal personnel changes. That allows them to rotate personnel based on production and fatigue.

As for Knighton and Vickerson being the starters, sure, if the opening defensive play is out of 21 or 12 personnel. But if someone opens with 11 personnel or even an empty backfield do you really think we're going to keep both Knighton and Vickerson on the field because "they're the starters"?

I'm expecting Knighton to gobble up most of Bannan's snaps from last year and Vickerson will keep the same basic role as well, but I'm also expecting Wolfe to take a nice sized bite out of the total interior DL snaps pool, both because it's where his pass rush skills are most effective and because it opens the door for Malik Jackson to get on the field more and Jackson looks like a long term piece of the DL for Denver.

In the base defense to open the game Wolfe will likely still be at LDE, but the ratio of his snaps at DT v. LDE is likely going to move in favor of DT because there he offers something no one else on the team can - interior pass rush, when his benefits as a 5-tech running interference for Miller is likely a job that Jackson can do quite well himself.
Yeah Drek we are going to come out in base D with a team spreading us out.. Really clever..

In my opinion in a hybrid scheme, having versatile players as several others have also mentioned is key.

Nobody has presented a real reason why Miller couldn't line up on the right side on passing downs.. He's going to be rushing, I see no reason why that will stunt his growth or hurt his long term potential. Miller has constantly excelled in different roles and responsibilities at every given opportunity. Why him rushing on the right side which he did last year isn't a problem at all!

Some seem to think its going to really affect him long term, I don't see it. I'd rather see other versatile explosive players brought in who allow for different formations and schematical approaches. If Jarvis Jones is hanging around @#28, what are we gonna pass because we don't need two Von Millers..?
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:11 PM   #118
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I have expressed this in a thread to BMore about moving Miller. No way do I like the move. When Miller creeps onto the line, it panics the OLine and play calling. That isn't going to happen if he is stationed as a DE. WOrse move for Simon Fletcher when they moved him to DL and sacks suffered. Keep Miller as is and find a player to fill the Doom void. One loss shouldn't mean missing another. I don't like having two question marks in the linebacking crew.

As for tight ends, I don't see any TE picked within the first 3 or 4 picks. I think we have 2 good TE players now and the others can be replaced...at a lower draft pick.
That panic at the line is what I'm talking about creating by moving Von around. Von rushed from both sides of the formation last year. Why would this be a problem? Drafting another Von like player allows more flexibility, movement, and confusion.. Tell me why it's a problem!
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:33 PM   #119
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That panic at the line is what I'm talking about creating by moving Von around. Von rushed from both sides of the formation last year. Why would this be a problem? Drafting another Von like player allows more flexibility, movement, and confusion.. Tell me why it's a problem!
The problem is there aren't any other "Von like" players. Especially not at #28.

Go ahead. Sacrifice half your draft to trade up for Jarvis Jones (not sure why you think he'll drop to 28).

Then of course, you'll be left without a 0-tech. That might cause a few problems. Especially considering the LB's are small and under-sized. So, you'll need a couple 3-4 ILB's while your at it.

BTW, McDaniels tried your thought experiment a couple years ago and the Broncos had their worst season in team history. By the time you complete your transformation to 3-4, Osweiler will be starting.

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Old 04-04-2013, 07:42 PM   #120
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The problem is there aren't any other "Von like" players. Especially not at #28.

Taken from the Orange Mane draft thread, the prospect is Eric Martin.





This is the absolute best draft prospect nobody is talking about, and he's a prototype OLB in the 34, a LEO in the 43, or as a SAM LB in the manner in which we use Von Miller. He's not a natural fit for the Cincinnati defense, nor is he a need, but we'll get creative on how to use his elite pass rushing ability. He was my top remaining player, I have a 4th Round grade on him, and once Zac Stacy was drafted, this became a no-brainer for me as the best player available.

This 2012 All BIG TEN FIRST TEAM Defensive End has been one of the best special teams players in the country the last two years as a gunner. That's always a nice perk. He's a huge hitter that does well in space. This year the former OLB was asked to start at DE for the Cornhuskers and quickly became their best and most dominating player, as well as the most feared.


His Senior statistics match up quite well with fellow LB/DE hybrids Von Miller and Bruce Irvin, perhaps you've heard of those 1st round draft selections?

Von Miller - 68 Tackles, 18 Stuffs, 11 Sacks, 6 Passes Defensed, 3 Forced Fumbles.

Bruce Irvin - 40 Tackles, 15 Stuffs, 8 Sacks, 3 Forced Fumbles.

Eric Martin - 59 Tackles, 17 Stuffs, 9 Sacks, 1 Pass Defended, 2 Forced Fumbles.


But, the similarities don't stop there at being a dominating statistical performer. Oh no, you remember how Miller and Irvin went in the first round because of their rare athletic traits? Well, Martin is just as athletic, with the same freakish times:

Von Miller - 6'2, 245, 33 1/2 arms, 9 1/4 hand size.
40 Time = 4.49
Bench = 21 Reps
Vertical = 37 Inches
Broad = 126 Inches
3 Cone = 6.70 Seconds
Short Shuttle = 4.06 Seconds

Bruce Irvin - 6'3, 245, 33 3/8 arms, 9 5/8 hands.
40 Time = 4.5
Bench = 23 Reps
Vertical = 33.5 Inches
Broad = 123 Inches
3 Cone = 6.70 Seconds
Short Shuttle = 4.03 Seconds

Eric Martin - 6'1, 237, 32 3/4 arms, 9 7/8 hands.
40 Time = 4.53
Bench = 20 Reps
Vertical = 30.5 Inches
Broad = 120 Inches
3 Cone = 6.69 Seconds
Short Shuttle = 3.97 Seconds


Of course Miller went #2 Overall, and Irvin went #15 Overall. They all have similar production, they all have similar size, and they all have similar athleticism. But I get Martin at #228th Overall. Suffice it to say, this won't happen on draft day. Who really knows how early he goes. I like him more than 3rd Round prospects like John Simon and Sio Moore as a pass rush specialist. Heck, I like him more than Corey Lemonier and Jamie Collins as well in that pass rush specialist role. Collins is supposably this great athletic freak, he wishes he was as fast or as quick as Martin. While I don't see a player as dynamic as Von Miller in Martin, he is still raw, I do see a guy that can contribute 10+ sacks his rookie year in a situational role a la Bruce Irvin.

The national media hasn't learned about Martin yet, though NFL teams surely know all about him. Bruce Irvin went from a 4th round pick in the media to a 1st round pick one week before the draft. I expect a similar meteoric rise on Martin. I also find it entirely comical that NFL.com doesn't even have him listed as an entrant in this draft.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:01 PM   #121
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The national media hasn't learned about Martin yet, though NFL teams surely know all about him. Bruce Irvin went from a 4th round pick in the media to a 1st round pick one week before the draft. I expect a similar meteoric rise on Martin. I also find it entirely comical that NFL.com doesn't even have him listed as an entrant in this draft.
Similar meteoric rise from Wolfe last year BTW. Nfldraftscout.com had him rated as a 5th round pick...thanks for the dolo on Martin...I've got some video to watch...be back shortly.

The thing about Wolfe is, nobody even heard of him when he was drafted except the Broncos, Steelers, Pats, and Ravens...so Martin could very well be safe.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:03 PM   #122
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Kiper had wolfe as a first rounder by his final mock. I dont think anyone had Irvin close though.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:39 PM   #123
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Similar meteoric rise from Wolfe last year BTW. Nfldraftscout.com had him rated as a 5th round pick...thanks for the dolo on Martin...I've got some video to watch...be back shortly.

The thing about Wolfe is, nobody even heard of him when he was drafted except the Broncos, Steelers, Pats, and Ravens...so Martin could very well be safe.
There's not a lot of film on Martin playing defense readily available online. Someone has the entire Nebraska v. Georgia bowl game on Youtube at least, so I'm breaking that down play by play for Martin. I'll post that when I'm done, just one more Quarter to go. He's made some good plays and you can definitely see what he brings to the table, but they have him playing outside contain so much at RDE, and Georgia keeps running away from him. It's pretty boring.

I want the Nebraska v. Iowa tape. I heard he dominated that entire game. Can't find it though.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:46 PM   #124
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Quick question:

Why only compare senior seasons for Von, Bruce and Eric? You know, since in their junior seasons Von had 17 sacks, Bruce had 14, and Eric had 2.5.

Maybe they aren't exactly the same prospects.

Also, you are completely justified in hating me.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:01 PM   #125
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There's not a lot of film on Martin playing defense readily available online. Someone has the entire Nebraska v. Georgia bowl game on Youtube at least, so I'm breaking that down play by play for Martin. I'll post that when I'm done, just one more Quarter to go. He's made some good plays and you can definitely see what he brings to the table, but they have him playing outside contain so much at RDE, and Georgia keeps running away from him. It's pretty boring.

I want the Nebraska v. Iowa tape. I heard he dominated that entire game. Can't find it though.
I can ask around and see if anyone I know has a recording of the Iowa game.
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