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Old 04-03-2013, 12:23 PM   #51
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Dude -- a year ago, people were giving you ****. I love your posts.

That said, we're going to draft the BPA that is a ILB, RE or RB.
Thank you bro!
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:39 PM   #52
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ProFootballFocus, which is a decent resource, graded Ayers higher than Dumervil in every category last season, including pass rush. I guess I'm in the minority here, but when Ayers was in the game as a DE, he looked really good last season. And he finished the second half of the year on fire despite limited snaps.

From week 10 on, including the Playoff loss, Ayers had 2 Sacks, 7 QB Hits, 10 QB Pressures, and 6 Tackles.

Dumervil, in that same time frame had, 6 Sacks, 4 QB Hits, 15 QB Pressures, and 12 Tackles.

Dumervil logged 491 Snaps. Ayers logged 186. Dumervil had roughly 3 times as many snaps and chances to make plays.

If we multiply Ayers' stats over the second half of the season by three, thus assuming his production would remain constant, his statistics would have been:

6 Sacks, 21 QB Hits, 30 QB Pressures, and 18 Tackles. Far superior to Dumervil's production in that time frame.


I think he's a 3 down guy and provides solid pass rush in and of himself. We should probably try and extend him before he blows up.

I'd be perfectly fine going into the season with just Ayers and Jeremy Beal at RDE. I do expect we'll sign Freeny though at some point. And I expect Ayers will outplay him too.



And, while I think Bmore did a very nice job with his write up and showcasing his thoughtful concept, I can't imagine there's even a 1% chance we move Derrick Wolfe off LDE or Von Miller off SLB. Our entire defensive concept is built around those two and their symbiotic relationship. And they excelled last season, as did our defense.
That's not what I am insinuating! To move Von from SOLB completely.. In fact I'm saying shift him to the right side on passing downs, and bringing in a player of similar abilities to allow some more creative looks.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:44 PM   #53
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Thank you for the kind words. I was trying to show prospects and scheme fit of what we would be looking for in a replacement and not as much with will Jones or Mingo last to #28.. Just players who would fit and projected round value.
I get what your doing. Mock draft and saying what players in the draft you think Broncos should target are two different things. Obviously to get some of those players you mention we either have to trade up or in some cases down to position the team in right spot value you wise for the pick.

To be honest i think from reading and researching the experts only have about 20 players with true first round grades. IMO that means Denver either moves up or moves down in the draft. That is if they can sometimes you just can't find a trade partner.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:45 PM   #54
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That's not what I am insinuating! To move Von from SOLB completely.. In fact I'm saying shift him to the right side on passing downs, and bringing in a player of similar abilities to allow some more creative looks.
Why not just bring in a WLB with "similar abilities" and leave Von where he is?
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:48 PM   #55
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Hey, over the whole season, Doom and Ayers played a total of 1290 snaps. If Ayers played all those snaps like he played the Carolina game (1 sack, 3 hits, 2 hurries, 3 tackles in 50 snaps), he'd have 26 sacks, 77 hits, 52 hurries, and 77 tackles!

DPOY!!!

So.....you're telling me there's a chance?! Yeah!
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:48 PM   #56
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I'd be surprised if he was a starter on opening day. Remember, he was demoted below Hunter at LDE, then when Hunter went on IR, did he move up? Nope, they moved Wolfe over to take his spot.

It would be nice if I were wrong, and the first 3 and a half years of his career meant nothing, and he only played like he has in the last few games. I'm just skeptical of that occurring.
By that training camp logic you're already wrong.

Dumervil was cut, did they sign in an immediate replacement? Nope
Did they move over Malik Jackson or Beal at RDE? Nope
Did they resign Hunter and promote him ahead of Ayers? Nope.

They just declared Ayers the starter right now at RDE so yeah by that meaningless logic just based on a fluid depth chart you're wrong.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:50 PM   #57
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To the OP - well thought out post, but if I were the Broncos FO I would strongly disagree.

1. Don't move a young first team pro-bowler to a new position. Just don't, ever. The position (in JDR's defense) is just perfect for him. Perfect player in the perfect position with the perfect coach. Just don't get too fancy here and we will have something historically special.
2. We had the money to keep Dumervil. Repeat that, we had the money to keep him, yet we let him walk to another AFC team (the team that ruined our SB hopes). Ask yourself why? Because the coaching staff thinks they can replace his cumulative production. Every move Elway has made has been to make us better - now. We have to trust his decision to change our defense.
3. Freeney is still on the shelf, losing money as we speak. Chances are that he doesn't even sign with a team until training camp. And, don't expect that he will actually get anywhere near the $6 mil he was asking for. I think that once his true value sets in, we still have a 50/50 chance of signing him as a situational pass rusher.
4. Remember that we picked up Elvis in the fourth round. Don't push so hard for a first round DE that you pick a project that might not pan out (remember our old friend Jarvis Moss?). First rounders need to be Game 1 starters, and i'm not sure that many of the DE's available at #28 will beat out the guys already on the roster.
5. With a larger DT combo this year, it makes it much easier to bring pass rush from the interior. Not from the DT's themselves, but from ILB blitzes. I would much rather pick up the best blitzing ILB available (which fills another significant need), than take a chance on an injured, old, or project DE.

Who knows, you could be absolutely right, but my two cents says otherwise.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:57 PM   #58
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By that training camp logic you're already wrong.

Dumervil was cut, did they sign in an immediate replacement? Nope
Did they move over Malik Jackson or Beal at RDE? Nope
Did they resign Hunter and promote him ahead of Ayers? Nope.

They just declared Ayers the starter right now at RDE so yeah by that meaningless logic just based on a fluid depth chart you're wrong.
Um, that's because they don't play any games for 5 months. No one needs to replace him right now because he isn't doing anything right now.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:01 PM   #59
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Why not just bring in a WLB with "similar abilities" and leave Von where he is?
Well that perfect example of that such player is Kasheen Greene.. But.. If he's blitzing, then the linebackers are shifting to cover and compensate. But if I understand correctly you are suggesting a player be brought in like I am mentioning but line this player up on the right hand side and leave Von alone on the left? That's similar to just drafting a RDE, because that side usually is closed end that player doesn't drop into coverage, so it's maybe not as practical to have a player there who can flash and make plays but also drop into coverage.

I'm insinuating this because on Passing Downs, Vons coming! So putting him on the closed side where he can line up at least to start allows him to just do what he does best, instead of he or another player crossing the field for coverage and not blitzing to cover.. Also where does Woodyard play if you draft a Will? Moving Von just mixes things up and almost gives us a different look where you have to account for a player who can do more than just come off the edge.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:41 PM   #60
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If I had my way, we'd draft a pass rusher, maybe Moore. Whichever vet wants a SB ring in exchange for playing on the cheap can come in (Abraham, Freeney, Philips) and they can split time at RDE, depending on the rookie's development. Beal/Jackson/Ayers can fight over LDE (I imagine Ayers will not win the starting spot). Wolfe, Knighton, Vickerson, Unrein will rotate at DT.

This is much closer to the defenses JDR and Fox have used in the past, I'm not sure if they liked Wolfe at LDE, or if it was a temporary fix out of necessity that they would like to move away from. Many people have noticed that Wolfe was more effective on the inside, I imagine the FO noticed it, too.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:50 PM   #61
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If I had my way, we'd draft a pass rusher, maybe Moore. Whichever vet wants a SB ring in exchange for playing on the cheap can come in (Abraham, Freeney, Philips) and they can split time at RDE, depending on the rookie's development. Beal/Jackson/Ayers can fight over LDE (I imagine Ayers will not win the starting spot). Wolfe, Knighton, Vickerson, Unrein will rotate at DT.

This is much closer to the defenses JDR and Fox have used in the past, I'm not sure if they liked Wolfe at LDE, or if it was a temporary fix out of necessity that they would like to move away from. Many people have noticed that Wolfe was more effective on the inside, I imagine the FO noticed it, too.
Wolfe is staying put at LDE, Knighton and Vickerson are your other two interior players. Wolfe is the facilitator for Von in our scheme. Knighton and Vickerson weren't just paid to be back-ups..

I'm not saying my idea is the right way or the only way. In fact I expect the Brass to draft a situational RDE and leave Von on the strong side. I was just trying to offer a different approach for third downs then drafting a situational RDE..
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:27 PM   #62
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Wolfe is staying put at LDE, Knighton and Vickerson are your other two interior players. Wolfe is the facilitator for Von in our scheme. Knighton and Vickerson weren't just paid to be back-ups..

I'm not saying my idea is the right way or the only way. In fact I expect the Brass to draft a situational RDE and leave Von on the strong side. I was just trying to offer a different approach for third downs then drafting a situational RDE..
Von was pretty good his rookie year with a turd in front of him, so I'm not sure why Wolfe needs to stay at LDE when he's better inside. I don't believe that Wolfe was drafted with the intention of playing him at DE.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:38 PM   #63
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To the OP - well thought out post, but if I were the Broncos FO I would strongly disagree.

1. Don't move a young first team pro-bowler to a new position. Just don't, ever. The position (in JDR's defense) is just perfect for him. Perfect player in the perfect position with the perfect coach. Just don't get too fancy here and we will have something historically special.
2. We had the money to keep Dumervil. Repeat that, we had the money to keep him, yet we let him walk to another AFC team (the team that ruined our SB hopes). Ask yourself why? Because the coaching staff thinks they can replace his cumulative production. Every move Elway has made has been to make us better - now. We have to trust his decision to change our defense.
3. Freeney is still on the shelf, losing money as we speak. Chances are that he doesn't even sign with a team until training camp. And, don't expect that he will actually get anywhere near the $6 mil he was asking for. I think that once his true value sets in, we still have a 50/50 chance of signing him as a situational pass rusher.
4. Remember that we picked up Elvis in the fourth round. Don't push so hard for a first round DE that you pick a project that might not pan out (remember our old friend Jarvis Moss?). First rounders need to be Game 1 starters, and i'm not sure that many of the DE's available at #28 will beat out the guys already on the roster.
5. With a larger DT combo this year, it makes it much easier to bring pass rush from the interior. Not from the DT's themselves, but from ILB blitzes. I would much rather pick up the best blitzing ILB available (which fills another significant need), than take a chance on an injured, old, or project DE.

Who knows, you could be absolutely right, but my two cents says otherwise.
I think they take Xavier Rhodes if he's there at 28
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:45 PM   #64
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Wolfe is staying put at LDE, Knighton and Vickerson are your other two interior players. Wolfe is the facilitator for Von in our scheme. Knighton and Vickerson weren't just paid to be back-ups..

I'm not saying my idea is the right way or the only way. In fact I expect the Brass to draft a situational RDE and leave Von on the strong side. I was just trying to offer a different approach for third downs then drafting a situational RDE..
I'd bet that this is year marks the beginning of a transition to full time DT for Wolfe, with Malik Jackson taking over as the strongside DE.

Jackson impressed in pre-season action and before that through camp last season. The staff likely feels they've hit on something valuable there. At the same time whenever Del Rio talked about Wolfe as a DE the "for now" caveat was always attached, stating that he needed to add some size to be a full time DT.

I'd imagine that is the plan for this off-season. Get Wolfe to put on 10-15 pounds and over the course of the season prove he can maintain that weight while Jackson proves he's a legit starting LDE.

JDR rotates his DTs plenty to give Wolfe, Knighton, and Vick ample game time, plus Vickerson isn't exactly young. He's a one or two years top gap and his replacement needs to already be on the team (Unrein?).

Its a nice DL mix assuming that Ayers steps up in Doom's absence or the FO acquires a pass rusher to compliment him.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:52 PM   #65
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That is an interesting idea. There are some concerns that others have brought out (having Von moving positions primarily), but the fact that we have such flexibility due to the incredible increase in quality players is huge.

Wolfe can be DE with DTs being Knighton and Vickerson, or they can move Wolfe inside and have Ayers/Jackson play LDE. Either way, the Broncos have options. Personally, I think it's going to be a combination of both. I think Wolfe stays outside on early down with Vickerson/Knighton inside and then moves inside with Ayers/Jackson going to LDE and one of Vickerson/Knighton at the other DT spot. Either way, we've got some good players who have position flexibility. That is a great thing.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:59 PM   #66
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Von was pretty good his rookie year with a turd in front of him, so I'm not sure why Wolfe needs to stay at LDE when he's better inside. I don't believe that Wolfe was drafted with the intention of playing him at DE.
Well, immediately after the draft they said they drafted him to play DE, and the local papers all touted Wolfe as the new DE.

I remember this because I commented on how absolutely stupid it was to assume Wolfe would be a DE and that it made no sense.

Whoops.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:05 PM   #67
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I'd bet that this is year marks the beginning of a transition to full time DT for Wolfe, with Malik Jackson taking over as the strongside DE.

Jackson impressed in pre-season action and before that through camp last season. The staff likely feels they've hit on something valuable there. At the same time whenever Del Rio talked about Wolfe as a DE the "for now" caveat was always attached, stating that he needed to add some size to be a full time DT.

I'd imagine that is the plan for this off-season. Get Wolfe to put on 10-15 pounds and over the course of the season prove he can maintain that weight while Jackson proves he's a legit starting LDE.

JDR rotates his DTs plenty to give Wolfe, Knighton, and Vick ample game time, plus Vickerson isn't exactly young. He's a one or two years top gap and his replacement needs to already be on the team (Unrein?).

Its a nice DL mix assuming that Ayers steps up in Doom's absence or the FO acquires a pass rusher to compliment him.

We are running the same scheme Del Rio ran in Baltimore when he had Peter Boulware as his Von Miller. It was essentially a 34, but designed the same way our is as a 43. The LDE two gaps and is really a DT. The two DTs in the middle two gap on base downs. The RDE rushes like a normal 43 DE.

I'm not sure what the "technical" name is for this scheme, but what we ran this previous season was by design. I do not expect Wolfe to move inside. He'd have to gain 50 lbs to fit what Del Rio used to have with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa.

This defense is massive fat asses inside that two gap. A two gapping 300 lb DT at LDE. a SAM LB that operates as a 34 OLB and rushes most of the time off the left side. A RDE that operates as a normal 43 end. Three down WILL and MIKE LBs are ideal. Woodyard fits perfectly. We need a MIKE that can cover. Being a big run plugger is not as important with three guys two gapping up front.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:21 PM   #68
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I think they take Xavier Rhodes if he's there at 28
well of course! That's like saying I think the Broncos take Shariff Floyd at number 28 if he's there...
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:28 PM   #69
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We are running the same scheme Del Rio ran in Baltimore when he had Peter Boulware as his Von Miller. It was essentially a 34, but designed the same way our is as a 43. The LDE two gaps and is really a DT. The two DTs in the middle two gap on base downs. The RDE rushes like a normal 43 DE.

I'm not sure what the "technical" name is for this scheme, but what we ran this previous season was by design. I do not expect Wolfe to move inside. He'd have to gain 50 lbs to fit what Del Rio used to have with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa.

This defense is massive fat asses inside that two gap. A two gapping 300 lb DT at LDE. a SAM LB that operates as a 34 OLB and rushes most of the time off the left side. A RDE that operates as a normal 43 end. Three down WILL and MIKE LBs are ideal. Woodyard fits perfectly. We need a MIKE that can cover. Being a big run plugger is not as important with three guys two gapping up front.
Nice post.

As to the OP, I think you underestimating the need at CB. If the right guy(s) show up at Denver 's pick then they will go get corner that will have the ability to compete for starting spot.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:44 PM   #70
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We are running the same scheme Del Rio ran in Baltimore when he had Peter Boulware as his Von Miller. It was essentially a 34, but designed the same way our is as a 43. The LDE two gaps and is really a DT. The two DTs in the middle two gap on base downs. The RDE rushes like a normal 43 DE.

I'm not sure what the "technical" name is for this scheme, but what we ran this previous season was by design. I do not expect Wolfe to move inside. He'd have to gain 50 lbs to fit what Del Rio used to have with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa.

This defense is massive fat asses inside that two gap. A two gapping 300 lb DT at LDE. a SAM LB that operates as a 34 OLB and rushes most of the time off the left side. A RDE that operates as a normal 43 end. Three down WILL and MIKE LBs are ideal. Woodyard fits perfectly. We need a MIKE that can cover. Being a big run plugger is not as important with three guys two gapping up front.
That defense worked well because of two huge guys in the middle and a HoF middle linebacker with freakish speed. The Broncos don't have this type of talent although they obviously feel Knighton is a step in the right direction.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:48 PM   #71
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I'd bet that this is year marks the beginning of a transition to full time DT for Wolfe, with Malik Jackson taking over as the strongside DE.

Jackson impressed in pre-season action and before that through camp last season. The staff likely feels they've hit on something valuable there. At the same time whenever Del Rio talked about Wolfe as a DE the "for now" caveat was always attached, stating that he needed to add some size to be a full time DT.

I'd imagine that is the plan for this off-season. Get Wolfe to put on 10-15 pounds and over the course of the season prove he can maintain that weight while Jackson proves he's a legit starting LDE.

JDR rotates his DTs plenty to give Wolfe, Knighton, and Vick ample game time, plus Vickerson isn't exactly young. He's a one or two years top gap and his replacement needs to already be on the team (Unrein?).

Its a nice DL mix assuming that Ayers steps up in Doom's absence or the FO acquires a pass rusher to compliment him.
This is what I was thinking, I had remembered a lot of "for now, we'd like him on the inside" type talk associated with Wolfe at DE.

I was also wondering about Beal at LDE, everything I had heard about him was basically "powerful, great at handfighting, not very fast," which sounds like a LDE to me. Plus, he was crazy productive in college.

As far as RDE, I'm really hoping it's not Ayers.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:02 PM   #72
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We are running the same scheme Del Rio ran in Baltimore when he had Peter Boulware as his Von Miller. It was essentially a 34, but designed the same way our is as a 43. The LDE two gaps and is really a DT. The two DTs in the middle two gap on base downs. The RDE rushes like a normal 43 DE.

I'm not sure what the "technical" name is for this scheme, but what we ran this previous season was by design. I do not expect Wolfe to move inside. He'd have to gain 50 lbs to fit what Del Rio used to have with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa.

This defense is massive fat asses inside that two gap. A two gapping 300 lb DT at LDE. a SAM LB that operates as a 34 OLB and rushes most of the time off the left side. A RDE that operates as a normal 43 end. Three down WILL and MIKE LBs are ideal. Woodyard fits perfectly. We need a MIKE that can cover. Being a big run plugger is not as important with three guys two gapping up front.
The DEs while JDR was in Baltimore were Rob Burnett and Michael McCrary . They are listed at 265 and 266 pounds.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:16 PM   #73
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Von was pretty good his rookie year with a turd in front of him, so I'm not sure why Wolfe needs to stay at LDE when he's better inside. I don't believe that Wolfe was drafted with the intention of playing him at DE.
I thought there was an article released not long after the draft that said the intentions were for Wolfe to play DE in base downs and DT in passing downs just like he is..

Wolfe is a key component of our scheme and Von's success at SOLB..
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:03 PM   #74
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"He's a high-energy guy," Denver defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio said Saturday. "He's working. I think we all appreciate (him). He's got natural finish-on-the-quarterback ability. He has a way of being slippery when it's time to rush the quarterback, and we need some push inside from our tackles.
"I think he'll be able to get us some of that."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...cos/56582642/1
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:06 PM   #75
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I like the idea, but moving DJ all over the place ruined his career here after a solid season at WLB... I do not want to do the same thing to Von, he is a beast where he is at.

What is more of a value, great RDE, or a SOLB beast of a LB who can rush the passer and possible improve upon his pass coverage skills?
There is absolutely no comparison to moving Von and moving DJ. A completely different level of ability and skill set. DJ was never really dominant at any position he played. He was limited in his ability to cover, somewhat reactionary in run coverage (guessing alot) and a limited pass rusher. I would equate Von much more to a Mecklenburg in his day where teams had to account for where he lined up.
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