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Old 04-03-2013, 10:17 AM   #401
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Originally Posted by edog24 View Post
I don't think I'm buying it. He was pretty poor against the better teams and didn't show up in the playoffs. I don't disagree that hurries are good, but when it's something that is continually brought up as his strong suit, I think it demonstrates that his value was diminishing.

I.e., sure he sucked against the run, didn't show up in the playoffs, played poor against strong teams but he had a ton of hurries!
Apparently the sack stat is the only thing to look at these days? Dumervil had effect on games before they were even played. Opposing teams gameplanning during the week to stop the doom Von combo. He had more FFs this year than the entire line sans Von. When teams don't have to gameplan around a strong rush its easier for them. It lets them dictate their offense instead of making them adjust it. People tend to just throw out the sack number as being most effective. Which by the way was double digit. You ain't getting 63.5 sacks in 71 starts by playing poor against good teams. So we played ****ty teams that entire time?
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:17 AM   #402
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This whole "Doom sucks against the run" argument is so ****ing retarded.

We were 3rd in run defense last year, and second in rush avg, and no one gave a **** during the regular season about Doom's play vs the run. It's just that you have people with access to websites that tell them what to think, so they think they're smarter than most and then try to rationalize the loss of the player like Charger fans do.

And for those that say the stats are misleading since we always had the lead, wouldn't it make sense to think teams would start the game running, to limit Manning's possessions? I don't recall too many long drives by opposing teams early in games.

Bottom line is we lose more than we gain with Doom gone, and most people don't know as much as they think they do.
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In what will become a running theme for this list, itís not enough for an edge defender to just be a good pass rusher. This is especially true if he couples that with poor run defense and costly penalties. Dumervil mustered only 16 run stops on the season, and his 4.8 Run Stop Percentage was among the worst rates at his position. Throw in the eight times he was flagged, and you have the most overpaid edge defender in the league.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-edge-rushers/

Go check threads after the NE, HOU game, where we lost because we couldn't stop the run. Hell even the 1st game vs KC, all teams have to do is put a wing formation with a TE on Dooms side and he was trash vs. the run.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:21 AM   #403
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https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-edge-rushers/

Go check threads after the NE, HOU game, where we lost because we couldn't stop the run. Hell even the 1st game vs KC, all teams have to do is put a wing formation with a TE on Dooms side and he was trash vs. the run.
Man the rest of the players must be all pro against the run. You know. Being 3rd in the league against the run with such a horrible anchor holding them down. Or maybe teams just didnt run against us cause they were playing from behind so much?
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:33 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Lolad View Post
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-edge-rushers/

Go check threads after the NE, HOU game, where we lost because we couldn't stop the run. Hell even the 1st game vs KC, all teams have to do is put a wing formation with a TE on Dooms side and he was trash vs. the run.
Right, we lost those games because of Doom. We'd have gone 16-0 if only we had started Ayers instead.

Give me a ****ing break.

We rank at the top of the league in run defense, but that's because we had the lead most of the time, in which case, what does it matter what Doom does against the run? All of the rushing yards against us this year were on Dumervil. Got it.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:41 AM   #405
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Legion of Doom out in full force. We are Doomed!!!!
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:46 AM   #406
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Man the rest of the players must be all pro against the run. You know. Being 3rd in the league against the run with such a horrible anchor holding them down. Or maybe teams just didnt run against us cause they were playing from behind so much?
You're trying to change the subject. There have been a lot of posters claiming Doom was decent against the run.

There are a lot of factors that go into rankings as a team. Remember 06' when we were the #2 offense in the league? Can you honestly say we were that good?

We were ranked high against the run because we had leads in majority of games, rarely did we have to come back late. you cant play catchup in this league without throwing the ball.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:49 AM   #407
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https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-edge-rushers/

Go check threads after the NE, HOU game, where we lost because we couldn't stop the run.
This is awesome. A whole new statistical era here in the OM.

The Orange Mane Piss and Moan index. I'll just shorthand it to OMPMI.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:50 AM   #408
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Right, we lost those games because of Doom. We'd have gone 16-0 if only we had started Ayers instead.

Give me a ****ing break.

We rank at the top of the league in run defense, but that's because we had the lead most of the time, in which case, what does it matter what Doom does against the run? All of the rushing yards against us this year were on Dumervil. Got it.
I know what I saw last season and I just provided statistics to back it up. Obviously if he graded out as one of the worst DE's (while also having the most playing time) he was being ran on consistently
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:52 AM   #409
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This is awesome. A whole new statistical era here in the OM.

The Orange Mane Piss and Moan index. I'll just shorthand it to OMPMI.
Doom is gone, I wish we kept him! If they brought him back I would have expected them to play him more as a situational pass rusher
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:54 AM   #410
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Legion of Doom out in full force. We are Doomed!!!!
The OM. Love a player one minute. Bash him the next.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:56 AM   #411
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We were ranked high against the run because we had leads in majority of games, rarely did we have to come back late. you cant play catchup in this league without throwing the ball.
But whenever we had significant leads, Doom's OMPMI was almost nonexistent. Because of that correlation, Doom should receive some credit for those leads.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:58 AM   #412
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The OM. Love a player one minute. Bash him the next.
I loved Doom but I think he is highly overrated. He is much closer to a single digit a year sack guy than the 17 he got a few years ago. I don't think he will be missed as much as people think.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:00 AM   #413
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Doom is gone, I wish we kept him! If they brought him back I would have expected them to play him more as a situational pass rusher
Yeah, the guy who took the most DL snaps last year on the NFL's 2nd ranked defense was clearly ready to be put to pasture.

Was JDR just smoking crack last year, or what reality is this based on?
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:02 AM   #414
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You're trying to change the subject. There have been a lot of posters claiming Doom was decent against the run.

There are a lot of factors that go into rankings as a team. Remember 06' when we were the #2 offense in the league? Can you honestly say we were that good?

We were ranked high against the run because we had leads in majority of games, rarely did we have to come back late. you cant play catchup in this league without throwing the ball.
Huh? They were ranked 21st in 2006. I don't care if dumervil is great or sucks at the run. I put him at just below average. He's not in there to sit at the line and wait for the RB. He's in there to attack the QB from the edge and force the RB inside. He's great at disrupting QBs his entire career. No ridiculous chart graph is going to change that.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:09 AM   #415
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The OM. Love a player one minute. Bash him the next.
Good news without Doom we should be in the running for Jadeveon Clowney. I know he isn't Dumervil though. Would that be OK?
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:11 AM   #416
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I loved Doom but I think he is highly overrated. He is much closer to a single digit a year sack guy than the 17 he got a few years ago. I don't think he will be missed as much as people think.
Apparently the FO didnt think he was overrated. They were willing to pay him 8 and when that didnt happen their next deal seemed better than the ravens. It's not a matter of the FO treating him like dirt cause they didnt. In today's NFL no DE is worth 12 on a team that has an elite QB contract. The FO did the right thing but doesn't mean he's overrated. It was obviously dooms idea to leave so nothing can be done about that. The point I'm making is right now the defensive pass rush is weaker than last year. Which puts pressure on the secondary. Going with what we have in ayers and Jackson won't do any good IMO. Just cause I say it's going to be weaker doesn't mean they still can't win. Some like to point out that I'm an idiot for thinking this. How absurd for me to assume the offense will make up for this loss!
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:12 AM   #417
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Good news without Doom we should be in the running for Jadeveon Clowney. I know he isn't Dumervil though. Would that be OK?
**** off. Keep provin my point dip****. Show me where I've said we won't make the playoffs because of this.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:14 AM   #418
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When did run stopping become the measure of a player? You know who is fantastic against the run? Bannan. He sure got snapped up quick! Also, Tyson Jackson is one of the best run defenders in the league. The Chiefs sure are happy to have him!
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:18 AM   #419
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I know what I saw last season and I just provided statistics to back it up. Obviously if he graded out as one of the worst DE's (while also having the most playing time) he was being ran on consistently
You do realize he was paid to get sacks, right? He wasn't paid, at 5'11", to be a run stopper. And even with that, I am hard pressed to recall any time during last season when I wished we had someone else in there but him.

I can point to the stat that we ranked at the top in rushing defense. 3rd in YPG, and 2nd in YPA. So how much did that inferior run defense hurt us, at 13-3? Where were we getting run on consistently, and why don't the season numbers reflect that? We were second in yards per rush at 3.6, which would be alot higher regardless of the number of carries teams had against us if Doom was getting run on consistently.

I can also point to the fact that we led in sacks. But for the convenience of argument, everyone will overlook that tidbit of information because we have so many guys ready to step up and duplicate Doom's pass rush production, even though no one actually has proven they can. What is even funnier about those arguments is that they center around pass rush. I don't see too many people wiping their brow in relief now that we have (supposedly) much better run stoppers playing
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:22 AM   #420
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When did run stopping become the measure of a player? You know who is fantastic against the run? Bannan. He sure got snapped up quick! Also, Tyson Jackson is one of the best run defenders in the league. The Chiefs sure are happy to have him!
Good point, that being said setting the edge for a DE is extremely important, forcing the plays inside really helps the LBers do their jobs, especially in a 5-2 where you only got 2 LBers flowing to the play and if the opposing oline is any good, one of those LBers is being blocked by an onlineman leaving 1 LBer to make a tackle.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:27 AM   #421
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**** off. Keep provin my point dip****. Show me where I've said we won't make the playoffs because of this.
You mad bro? How is agreeing with you that Denver is ****ed proving your point? You guys changed my mind none of the ideas people came up with will work. It's time I put individual players ahead of the the team like the Legion of Doom, Teblow lovers, and the Cutlets. <====(I was one then I learned)
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:37 AM   #422
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You mad bro? How is agreeing with you that Denver is ****ed proving your point? You guys changed my mind none of the ideas people came up with will work. It's time I put individual players ahead of the the team like the Legion of Doom, Teblow lovers, and the Cutlets. <====(I was one then I learned)
You're painting a picture by saying us "doom followers" are predicting a horrendous season just cause dumervil isn't on the field. God forbid someone who thinks its going to be a bit harder for the team with him gone. Resorting to blitz packages because of a lack of rush isn't a good look. This isn't the end of the offseason so moves/picks are to be made. Right now though its not crazy to think ayers won't get it done.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:55 AM   #423
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You're painting a picture by saying us "doom followers" are predicting a horrendous season just cause dumervil isn't on the field. God forbid someone who thinks its going to be a bit harder for the team with him gone. Resorting to blitz packages because of a lack of rush isn't a good look. This isn't the end of the offseason so moves/picks are to be made. Right now though its not crazy to think ayers won't get it done.
I don't get why on this site people feel the need to label and chastise. Not saying you, but to your 'doom follower' quote. Who decided that if you're not with us in trashing former players, you're against us, as evidenced by someone else's post above? Why do you even have to defend yourself when making a case for keeping a player that left? It's so Charger-fan like, it's sickening. All it takes is for someone with time on their hands to read up on all the websites out there, to have someone form their opinions for them.

By the way, these are the same experts that will buy a draft magazine at Walgreen's, then repeat what is in there as gospel, portraying it as if they know more than anyone else.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:56 AM   #424
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You're painting a picture by saying us "doom followers" are predicting a horrendous season just cause dumervil isn't on the field. God forbid someone who thinks its going to be a bit harder for the team with him gone. Resorting to blitz packages because of a lack of rush isn't a good look. This isn't the end of the offseason so moves/picks are to be made. Right now though its not crazy to think ayers won't get it done.
Let's see I have already seen posters say that losing Doom cost us a chance at the SB so I don't see how I am that far off.

Also a number of good posters have proven that Ayers in limited snaps, playing for Doom has been more than effective at RDE. Yet that gets blown off like it's a fluke.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...1&postcount=28

Some of us can live with Ayers and a rookie DE over Doom because we know that the O will be much better with Welker not because of scoring either. NE averaged 3.5 more first downs per game then Denver with Welker. Just think what could happen when you give the most accurate slot throwing QB the best slot WR in the NFL. Clock chewing mode for Denver just got 100 times easier.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:01 PM   #425
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Let's see I have already seen posters say that losing Doom cost us a chance at the SB so I don't see how I am that far off.

Also a number of good posters have proven that Ayers in limited snaps, playing for Doom has been more than effective at RDE. Yet that gets blown off like it's a fluke.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...1&postcount=28

Some of us can live with Ayers and a rookie DE over Doom because we know that the O will be much better with Welker not because of scoring either. NE averaged 3.5 more first downs per game then Denver with Welker. Just think what could happen when you give the most accurate slot throwing QB the best slot WR in the NFL. Clock chewing mode for Denver just got 100 times easier.
As I replied to the original post, judging players on a per snap basis is pretty poor methodology. Also, why are we limiting ourselves to the last few games when we have 4 years of data for Ayers?
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