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Old 04-03-2013, 11:53 AM   #26
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How about we leave Miller where he is and draft a penetrating DT in round 1, then get the best available pass rusher in round 2... I do not care if he is a DE or OLB (Situational pass rusher)

If we get a DT that can make a push in the middle... along with pot roast, Put Meth and Ayers on the outside, then use round 2 and Miller on passing down to generate heat on the QB. I think getting the best possible DT will help a ton with our current crop of DE's.

I think moving Miller out of position, where he was DROY and 2nd best defensive player in the NFL last year would be a huge mistake.
Wolfe is not great on the outside. He is great in the inside. This is how bad Ayers is: the FO decided that having Wolfe out of position on most plays would be better than having Ayers reprise his role from 2011.

In my eyes, we have 3 starting quality DTs and zero starting quality DEs. I absolutely agree that Von should stay where he is, but we need some outside pass rush from our line.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #27
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Jarvis Jones - LB - Player

NFL.com's Gil Brandt "(isn't) sure" Georgia OLB Jarvis Jones is a first-round talent.
The legendary player evaluator has dropped Jones out of the first round in his latest mock draft. Jones underwhelmed all around at his Pro Day, running a 4.92 in the 40-yard dash while posting just 20 bench reps and a 9-foot-3 broad jump. Questions about Jones' spinal condition have also muddled his stock. It only takes one team to fall in love, but Jones' first-round status is looking shaky.

Yeah there is NO way that slips to 28. Right now there is a strong chance the best pure pass rushers (Moore and Jones) will be sitting there at 28.
The spinal condition sure scares me, his measurables don't. Perhaps I'm an idiot, but I generally don't care about tenths of a second in a 40 yard dash. Jones can play football. If he's healthy, im good with him. He's a weapon.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:59 AM   #28
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ProFootballFocus, which is a decent resource, graded Ayers higher than Dumervil in every category last season, including pass rush. I guess I'm in the minority here, but when Ayers was in the game as a DE, he looked really good last season. And he finished the second half of the year on fire despite limited snaps.

From week 10 on, including the Playoff loss, Ayers had 2 Sacks, 7 QB Hits, 10 QB Pressures, and 6 Tackles.

Dumervil, in that same time frame had, 6 Sacks, 4 QB Hits, 15 QB Pressures, and 12 Tackles.

Dumervil logged 491 Snaps. Ayers logged 186. Dumervil had roughly 3 times as many snaps and chances to make plays.

If we multiply Ayers' stats over the second half of the season by three, thus assuming his production would remain constant, his statistics would have been:

6 Sacks, 21 QB Hits, 30 QB Pressures, and 18 Tackles. Far superior to Dumervil's production in that time frame.


I think he's a 3 down guy and provides solid pass rush in and of himself. We should probably try and extend him before he blows up.

I'd be perfectly fine going into the season with just Ayers and Jeremy Beal at RDE. I do expect we'll sign Freeny though at some point. And I expect Ayers will outplay him too.



And, while I think Bmore did a very nice job with his write up and showcasing his thoughtful concept, I can't imagine there's even a 1% chance we move Derrick Wolfe off LDE or Von Miller off SLB. Our entire defensive concept is built around those two and their symbiotic relationship. And they excelled last season, as did our defense.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:01 PM   #29
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I'd rather keep Ayers as RDE, knowing that he provides nothing against the pass, and plan on generating pressure elsewhere than have Von spend more than a couple snaps at DE per game. As a RDE, Von will be a magnet for double teams. He is our best player, our scheme should be set up for other players to free him up, not the other way around.

Also, when Von moves to LDE and Wolfe moves inside, we are improving the rush from two positions. Von moving up to replace Ayers would improve one position, and get a turd off the field, I guess.

If Ayers has to start somewhere, it should be at LDE, where he was in 2011. My very favorite position for him, though, would be on the opposing team.
Why are you thinking 4-3 four man front and not Denver Bronco football? I'm suggesting Ayers starts at RDE and on passing downs he and Wolfe kick inside, Knighton and Vickerson out.. And in comes another DB and LBer.. So we are in our Nickel Package, where we spend most of our time in a 2-4-5 formation, instead of a 4-2-5 formation. Where Von and Collins for example could be moved all around instead of a situational pass rusher who comes from the RDE with his hand in the ground.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:01 PM   #30
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The spinal condition sure scares me, his measurables don't. Perhaps I'm an idiot, but I generally don't care about tenths of a second in a 40 yard dash. Jones can play football. If he's healthy, im good with him. He's a weapon.
I'm a fan of Jones, don't get me wrong. Teams use the broad jump to show explosiveness and he didn't fair to well. The point is with the spinal problem and the poor pro day showing, Jones is far from a lock to be drafted before 28.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #31
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There is no spinal problem. Jones' spine checked out completely normal, he was mis-diagnosed with spinal stenosis at USC because of a stinger he suffered shortly before the doctor visit.

Take the spine issue out. It's non-existant.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #32
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I'm a fan of Jones, don't get me wrong. Teams use the broad jump to show explosiveness and he didn't fair to well. The point is with the spinal problem and the poor pro day showing, Jones is far from a lock to be drafted before 28.
I agree.

And guys beat the measurables BS all the time. Ask the Bengals about their crappy LB Vontaze Burfict.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #33
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There is no spinal problem. Jones' spine checked out completely normal, he was mis-diagnosed with spinal stenosis at USC because of a stinger he suffered shortly before the doctor visit.

Take the spine issue out. It's non-existant.
OK< then lets put him on the list
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:05 PM   #34
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ProFootballFocus, which is a decent resource, graded Ayers higher than Dumervil in every category last season, including pass rush. I guess I'm in the minority here, but when Ayers was in the game as a DE, he looked really good last season. And he finished the second half of the year on fire despite limited snaps.

From week 10 on, including the Playoff loss, Ayers had 2 Sacks, 7 QB Hits, 10 QB Pressures, and 6 Tackles.

Dumervil, in that same time frame had, 6 Sacks, 4 QB Hits, 15 QB Pressures, and 12 Tackles.

Dumervil logged 491 Snaps. Ayers logged 186. Dumervil had roughly 3 times as many snaps and chances to make plays.

If we multiply Ayers' stats over the second half of the season by three, thus assuming his production would remain constant, his statistics would have been:

6 Sacks, 21 QB Hits, 30 QB Pressures, and 18 Tackles. Far superior to Dumervil's production in that time frame.


I think he's a 3 down guy and provides solid pass rush in and of himself. We should probably try and extend him before he blows up.

I'd be perfectly fine going into the season with just Ayers and Jeremy Beal at RDE. I do expect we'll sign Freeny though at some point. And I expect Ayers will outplay him too.



And, while I think Bmore did a very nice job with his write up and showcasing his thoughtful concept, I can't imagine there's even a 1% chance we move Derrick Wolfe off LDE or Von Miller off SLB. Our entire defensive concept is built around those two and their symbiotic relationship. And they excelled last season, as did our defense.
PFF is a decent resource for game log type things. Their grades are trash. Let me give you an example, using pass rush.

Unlike sacks, hits, hurries, or total pressures, their pass rush grades have a negative correlation with wins. This means:

The more sacks a team has, the more likely they are to win
The more QB hits a team has, the more likely they are to win
The more hurries a team has, the more likely they are to win
The more pressures a team has, the more likely they are to win
The higher pass rush grade a team has , the more likely they are to LOSE

I don't know how they come up with their grades, but they are doing it wrong.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:06 PM   #35
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Why are you thinking 4-3 four man front and not Denver Bronco football? I'm suggesting Ayers starts at RDE and on passing downs he and Wolfe kick inside, Knighton and Vickerson out.. And in comes another DB and LBer.. So we are in our Nickel Package, where we spend most of our time in a 2-4-5 formation, instead of a 4-2-5 formation. Where Von and Collins for example could be moved all around instead of a situational pass rusher who comes from the RDE with his hand in the ground.
Keep in mind with Knighton that his best attribute is his pass rush. Yes, he's a huge man, but he's better at pushing the pocket than defending the run. You want him on the field on passing downs. Vickerson will come out as Wolfe slides inside for sure though.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:09 PM   #36
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Also, basing a player's production on a per snap basis is foolish. The fewer snaps someone plays, the less prepared for that player the opposing team will be. We may get to see how Ayers plays when teams are planning for him. Oh, wait, we already saw that in 2010 and 2011 when he was starting, and was completely awful.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:10 PM   #37
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OK< then lets put him on the list
Contrary to what Gil Brandt thinks, he won't get past the Saints at 15. I'm not sure he even makes it to that point. It's a lock in my book that the Browns trade down with the Dolphins. Miami will take the last OT, Lane Johnson, before Arizona or San Diego can. Cleveland is very high on Jarvis Jones, they could take him at 12 if he gets past San Diego at 11. If the OT's are all gone, I'm not sure SD takes an OG. They might go OLB.

We have no shot in hell at Jarvis Jones.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:16 PM   #38
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/inde...es_possib.html

"either a very mild incident of spinal cord concussion or merely a stinger that has long since resolved."

That sounds convincing.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:17 PM   #39
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Also, basing a player's production on a per snap basis is foolish. The fewer snaps someone plays, the less prepared for that player the opposing team will be. We may get to see how Ayers plays when teams are planning for him. Oh, wait, we already saw that in 2010 and 2011 when he was starting, and was completely awful.
Disagree with you. Completely.

Projection IS roster evaluation. Teams know what Ayers can do. He was a rock solid player in 2011, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. He just can't two gap, which is what was needed with Miller playing SAM. And the reason his only position on this year's defense was RDE, behind Dumervil.

You sound like a biased Ayers hater, which makes little sense, because he's a solid player for us with a first round talent pedigree. Anyone with half a brain and eye balls should have been able to watch last season, especially the second half, and see Ayers play lights out on his snaps. Are you telling me he didn't play well? I just want to make sure I understand.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:17 PM   #40
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Contrary to what Gil Brandt thinks, he won't get past the Saints at 15. I'm not sure he even makes it to that point. It's a lock in my book that the Browns trade down with the Dolphins. Miami will take the last OT, Lane Johnson, before Arizona or San Diego can. Cleveland is very high on Jarvis Jones, they could take him at 12 if he gets past San Diego at 11. If the OT's are all gone, I'm not sure SD takes an OG. They might go OLB.

We have no shot in hell at Jarvis Jones.
Miami may trade for Albert. I agree about Jones, there's no way he's there at 28.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:21 PM   #41
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Keep in mind with Knighton that his best attribute is his pass rush. Yes, he's a huge man, but he's better at pushing the pocket than defending the run. You want him on the field on passing downs. Vickerson will come out as Wolfe slides inside for sure though.
I think Knighton is better against the run then being a disruptive pass rusher... I love the Knighton signing and if he stayed in with Wolfe that's fine but we are getting off topic about the ways to improve pass rush..
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:24 PM   #42
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/inde...es_possib.html

"either a very mild incident of spinal cord concussion or merely a stinger that has long since resolved."

That sounds convincing.
It is convincing because it's from the independent doctor that evaluated him at the Combine.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...ce=twitterfeed

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*Jarvis Jones’ neck injury is starting to look like it might be a non-issue on draft day, and there is little chance he will fall out of the top 10. In a medical report that was sent to NFL teams, leading orthopedist Craig Brigham refutes that Jones ever had a significant spinal cord contusion. When he was at Southern Cal, the pass rusher was diagnosed with one, and Southern Cal did not allow him to play in 2010. Jones transferred to Georgia and played two seasons with no problems. Brigham concluded that Jones either had a very mild incident of spinal cord concussion or merely a stinger that has long since resolved. Even if another similar injury occurred, Brigham concluded it would not be a career ending issue. After recently examining Jones, Brigham concluded, “Jarvis is cleared to play without restriction.”

Also, some more:

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/jeff-schu...g-draft-boar/#


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“That ain’t true,” he said of the reports, before throwing out the first pitch of the Braves’ spring training game against Detroit at Disney. “People are still talking to me. Nobody has taken me off the board. The doctor said I was fine and cleared me and the [scouting] combine went fine for me. I was cleared medically. Teams know my situation. Everything went great. I did everything they asked me to do. I’ll have my pro day [at Georgia on March 21], and then I’m going to meet with a whole lot of teams.”

Quote:
Shaw said Jones has been examined by three specialists and all have cleared him. “They took three different MRIs since he’s been here and there’s no concern,” he said.

Jones’ theory on he rumors is that they’re part of a typical pre-draft disinformation campaign.

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Jones said he spoke to “20 to 22” teams at the recent combine (the Falcons were not among them). The subject of his health often came up, but Jones said, “They all knew my situation. They just wanted me to explain to them what happened [at USC]. The doctors got all of my [test results]. I believe I’m fine. They said I was fine. So I trust them and I trust the doctors.”
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:33 PM   #43
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Disagree with you. Completely.

Projection IS roster evaluation. Teams know what Ayers can do. He was a rock solid player in 2011, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. He just can't two gap, which is what was needed with Miller playing SAM. And the reason his only position on this year's defense was RDE, behind Dumervil.

You sound like a biased Ayers hater, which makes little sense, because he's a solid player for us with a first round talent pedigree. Anyone with half a brain and eye balls should have been able to watch last season, especially the second half, and see Ayers play lights out on his snaps. Are you telling me he didn't play well? I just want to make sure I understand.
Of course teams know what Ayers can do. He's played 2192 snaps in 57 games, he's not really an unknown commodity. In that timeframe he's managed to rack up 6.5 sacks. He may be effective against the run, but he is not a passrusher. Sure Ayers can play well for a few snaps, but if they try to depend on him as much as they did on Dumervil, our defense will suffer for it.

I don't care where he was drafted, I care if he can play. Ayers can be a replacement for a few snaps, maybe a whole game. But 16 games? We already know he can't do it.

This phrase "rock solid" seems appropriate, because 3 sacks is only a few more than I would expect if we had actually placed a literal rock at LDE for 2011.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:37 PM   #44
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Contrary to what Gil Brandt thinks, he won't get past the Saints at 15. I'm not sure he even makes it to that point. It's a lock in my book that the Browns trade down with the Dolphins. Miami will take the last OT, Lane Johnson, before Arizona or San Diego can. Cleveland is very high on Jarvis Jones, they could take him at 12 if he gets past San Diego at 11. If the OT's are all gone, I'm not sure SD takes an OG. They might go OLB.

We have no shot in hell at Jarvis Jones.
Ok, lets cross him off the list!
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:41 PM   #45
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Of course teams know what Ayers can do. He's played 2192 snaps in 57 games, he's not really an unknown commodity. In that timeframe he's managed to rack up 6.5 sacks. He may be effective against the run, but he is not a passrusher. Sure Ayers can play well for a few snaps, but if they try to depend on him as much as they did on Dumervil, our defense will suffer for it.

I don't care where he was drafted, I care if he can play. Ayers can be a replacement for a few snaps, maybe a whole game. But 16 games? We already know he can't do it.

This phrase "rock solid" seems appropriate, because 3 sacks is only a few more than I would expect if we had actually placed a literal rock at LDE for 2011.

Not gonna lie, that made me giggle.


You don't like him, fine. This sounds a lot like the people that hated Knowshon Moreno as well and refused to see his good qualities. Hopefully, we'll have a consensus opinion on Ayers' worth after this season.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:45 PM   #46
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ProFootballFocus, which is a decent resource, graded Ayers higher than Dumervil in every category last season, including pass rush. I guess I'm in the minority here, but when Ayers was in the game as a DE, he looked really good last season. And he finished the second half of the year on fire despite limited snaps.

From week 10 on, including the Playoff loss, Ayers had 2 Sacks, 7 QB Hits, 10 QB Pressures, and 6 Tackles.

Dumervil, in that same time frame had, 6 Sacks, 4 QB Hits, 15 QB Pressures, and 12 Tackles.

Dumervil logged 491 Snaps. Ayers logged 186. Dumervil had roughly 3 times as many snaps and chances to make plays.

If we multiply Ayers' stats over the second half of the season by three, thus assuming his production would remain constant, his statistics would have been:

6 Sacks, 21 QB Hits, 30 QB Pressures, and 18 Tackles. Far superior to Dumervil's production in that time frame.


I think he's a 3 down guy and provides solid pass rush in and of himself. We should probably try and extend him before he blows up.

I'd be perfectly fine going into the season with just Ayers and Jeremy Beal at RDE. I do expect we'll sign Freeny though at some point. And I expect Ayers will outplay him too.



And, while I think Bmore did a very nice job with his write up and showcasing his thoughtful concept, I can't imagine there's even a 1% chance we move Derrick Wolfe off LDE or Von Miller off SLB. Our entire defensive concept is built around those two and their symbiotic relationship. And they excelled last season, as did our defense.
finally, someone understands. Thank you.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:50 PM   #47
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Not gonna lie, that made me giggle.


You don't like him, fine. This sounds a lot like the people that hated Knowshon Moreno as well and refused to see his good qualities. Hopefully, we'll have a consensus opinion on Ayers' worth after this season.
I'd be surprised if he was a starter on opening day. Remember, he was demoted below Hunter at LDE, then when Hunter went on IR, did he move up? Nope, they moved Wolfe over to take his spot.

It would be nice if I were wrong, and the first 3 and a half years of his career meant nothing, and he only played like he has in the last few games. I'm just skeptical of that occurring.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:55 PM   #48
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Dude -- a year ago, people were giving you ****. I love your posts.

That said, we're going to draft the BPA that is a ILB, RE or RB.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:06 PM   #49
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ProFootballFocus, which is a decent resource, graded Ayers higher than Dumervil in every category last season, including pass rush. I guess I'm in the minority here, but when Ayers was in the game as a DE, he looked really good last season. And he finished the second half of the year on fire despite limited snaps.

From week 10 on, including the Playoff loss, Ayers had 2 Sacks, 7 QB Hits, 10 QB Pressures, and 6 Tackles.

Dumervil, in that same time frame had, 6 Sacks, 4 QB Hits, 15 QB Pressures, and 12 Tackles.

Dumervil logged 491 Snaps. Ayers logged 186. Dumervil had roughly 3 times as many snaps and chances to make plays.

If we multiply Ayers' stats over the second half of the season by three, thus assuming his production would remain constant, his statistics would have been:

6 Sacks, 21 QB Hits, 30 QB Pressures, and 18 Tackles. Far superior to Dumervil's production in that time frame.


I think he's a 3 down guy and provides solid pass rush in and of himself. We should probably try and extend him before he blows up.

I'd be perfectly fine going into the season with just Ayers and Jeremy Beal at RDE. I do expect we'll sign Freeny though at some point. And I expect Ayers will outplay him too.



And, while I think Bmore did a very nice job with his write up and showcasing his thoughtful concept, I can't imagine there's even a 1% chance we move Derrick Wolfe off LDE or Von Miller off SLB. Our entire defensive concept is built around those two and their symbiotic relationship. And they excelled last season, as did our defense.
Thanks for providing those stats.

I didn't know that was the case but it backs up what I've seen from him in games against Cincy/Carolina where he looked really effective at DE.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:19 PM   #50
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Hey, over the whole season, Doom and Ayers played a total of 1290 snaps. If Ayers played all those snaps like he played the Carolina game (1 sack, 3 hits, 2 hurries, 3 tackles in 50 snaps), he'd have 26 sacks, 77 hits, 52 hurries, and 77 tackles!

DPOY!!!
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