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Old 04-03-2013, 08:17 AM   #376
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While we're on the subject of Ayers, here's a fun game: rank this list of pass rushing busts, and determine where Ayers belongs on this list, based on pass rushing productivity, in sacks per game:

Aaron Maybin
Victor Abiamiri
Adam Carriker
Tim Crowder
Everette Brown



It's a trick question! All of them have been more productive than Ayers!

To Ayers' credit though, he has been barely more productive than Jarvis Moss (He has 0.114 sacks per game, compared to Moss' 0.113).
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:39 AM   #377
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When someone's a stud player and worth every penny (Von?), you don't focus on how many hurries they get per game, just saying.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:49 AM   #378
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When someone's a stud player and worth every penny (Von?), you don't focus on how many hurries they get per game, just saying.
This is so far from the truth. Rushing a QB into a mistake helps teams win games. So many times I watched a QB throw off target. Into the grass. Into the sidelines. A 3rd down incomplete pass because of a hurry has the same effect as a sack. Sure there's isnt a 5 yard loss on the play, but it still forces a 4th down. And it happened alot for is last year.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:09 AM   #379
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I didn't like how his sacks always came late in the game, like his sack/safety on Schaub on the Texan's very first offensive play. Or how they all came after the game was decided, like his strip sack on Rivers which Carter returned for a TD. Of course, the way that he doesn't show up in the run game is frustrating, since he was second on the DL in stops, with 30 compared to Wolfe's 31.

Let me say this again, because I feel that people are intentionally ignoring it. Last season, Doom had more pressures than anyone on the following teams:

Arizona
Atlanta
Baltimore
Buffalo
Chicago
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Dallas
Detroit
Green Bay
Indianapolis
Jacksonville
Kansas City
New England
New Orleans
New York Giants
New York Jets
Oakland
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
San Diego
Seattle

Also, it is not all about production. It's about how the QB's internal clock ticks a little faster when there's a premier pass rusher coming from his blind side. That doesn't happen with Ayers.

It's about how the RB will stay over to Doom's side to help block him, rather than spying Von. That doesn't happen with Ayers.
I'm not ignoring it. I've already said that Ayers may not match Doom's production but he can fit the role of an open side DE who can close off the blind side lane to prevent the QB from escaping.

- By the way how many of Dumervil's pressures came against the Chargers with street free agents at LT??

And you're simply guessing about how Ayers is going to play out - as anybody else is I guess because he took limited snaps last year.

But simply put this is what I saw on film last year when Ayers played:
A guy who was explosive off the snap (just like Doom) and showed a lot of hustle and good fundamental technique in getting to the QB when he was lined up as an open side DE.

Does that mean he can completely replace Doom? No, but it does mean that there's enough there in his skill set/speed/size combination that make him a decent replacement.

Case in point:
Against the Panthers Week 11 when Doom went down with injury early:

Robert Ayers played about 50 snaps resulting in:
1 sack, three hits, and two hurries. 6 total pressures out of 49 snaps is pretty damn good and were the most of his career and all against a top flite LT in Jordan Gross (I think that's the dude's name).

Dumervil had a total of 60 sacks/hits/hurries for the season and he's an inferior run defender to Ayers and outside of the regular season B'more game racked up pressures against really weak LTs.

You either think that game from Ayers against a good mobile QB, with a top LT was a fluke or something to build on.

I think given his $1million salary next year it's more than worth a shot.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:20 AM   #380
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Funny how bad Doom was at stopping the run yet he played by far more snaps on the DL than anyone else and Denver was the #3 defense against the rush. seems stats don't back the common thought that Doom was horrible against the run. I saw a guy that played every play very hard and will be missed more than people think.

Unless of course Denver can draft a stud to take his spot, than its all good.
He was on the field because there was nobody better behind him. It's a FACT that he was the worst DE in the league on run downs. That stat has been displayed here numerous times stop trying to play revisionist history. We ranked high against the run because we lead.

Look at the NO game they averaged over 5 ypc
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:24 AM   #381
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I'm not ignoring it. I've already said that Ayers may not match Doom's production but he can fit the role of an open side DE who can close off the blind side lane to prevent the QB from escaping.

- By the way how many of Dumervil's pressures came against the Chargers with street free agents at LT??

And you're simply guessing about how Ayers is going to play out - as anybody else is I guess because he took limited snaps last year.

But simply put this is what I saw on film last year when Ayers played:
A guy who was explosive off the snap (just like Doom) and showed a lot of hustle and good fundamental technique in getting to the QB when he was lined up as an open side DE.

Does that mean he can completely replace Doom? No, but it does mean that there's enough there in his skill set/speed/size combination that make him a decent replacement.

Case in point:
Against the Panthers Week 11 when Doom went down with injury early:

Robert Ayers played about 50 snaps resulting in:
1 sack, three hits, and two hurries. 6 total pressures out of 49 snaps is pretty damn good and were the most of his career and all against a top flite LT in Jordan Gross (I think that's the dude's name).

Dumervil had a total of 60 sacks/hits/hurries for the season and he's an inferior run defender to Ayers and outside of the regular season B'more game racked up pressures against really weak LTs.

You either think that game from Ayers against a good mobile QB, with a top LT was a fluke or something to build on.

I think given his $1million salary next year it's more than worth a shot.
Ayers was a full time starter at OLB in 2010 and at DE in 2011, and was horrible both years. Funny how our defense improves when he sees the field less.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:25 AM   #382
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He was on the field because there was nobody better behind him. It's a FACT that he was the worst DE in the league on run downs. That stat has been displayed here numerous times stop trying to play revisionist history. We ranked high against the run because we lead.

Look at the NO game they averaged over 5 ypc
Can you post that stat? Somehow I've missed it.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:28 AM   #383
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I'm not ignoring it. I've already said that Ayers may not match Doom's production but he can fit the role of an open side DE who can close off the blind side lane to prevent the QB from escaping.

- By the way how many of Dumervil's pressures came against the Chargers with street free agents at LT??

And you're simply guessing about how Ayers is going to play out - as anybody else is I guess because he took limited snaps last year.

But simply put this is what I saw on film last year when Ayers played:
A guy who was explosive off the snap (just like Doom) and showed a lot of hustle and good fundamental technique in getting to the QB when he was lined up as an open side DE.

Does that mean he can completely replace Doom? No, but it does mean that there's enough there in his skill set/speed/size combination that make him a decent replacement.

Case in point:
Against the Panthers Week 11 when Doom went down with injury early:

Robert Ayers played about 50 snaps resulting in:
1 sack, three hits, and two hurries. 6 total pressures out of 49 snaps is pretty damn good and were the most of his career and all against a top flite LT in Jordan Gross (I think that's the dude's name).

Dumervil had a total of 60 sacks/hits/hurries for the season and he's an inferior run defender to Ayers and outside of the regular season B'more game racked up pressures against really weak LTs.

You either think that game from Ayers against a good mobile QB, with a top LT was a fluke or something to build on.

I think given his $1million salary next year it's more than worth a shot.
You say people guess cause they haven't seen much yet you are guessing off one Carolina game? What I've seen so far in ayers isn't much. In college I saw him struggle to even have a starting role until his senior season. I hear his college coaches say he "just didnt take coaching well". In the pros I see the same thing. Underwhelming. JDR dropping him in depth charts. He's not much so far and I continue to see the same thing.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:29 AM   #384
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Personally, I think we just should take Shaun Phillips and his 9 sacks, 12 QB hits, 2 forced fumbles as a situational pass rusher at a much cheaper contract than Freeney/Abraham and go DL in the first day of the draft as well.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:32 AM   #385
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You say people guess cause they haven't seen much yet you are guessing off one Carolina game? What I've seen so far in ayers isn't much. In college I saw him struggle to even have a starting role until his senior season. I hear his college coaches say he "just didnt take coaching well". In the pros I see the same thing. Underwhelming. JDR dropping him in depth charts. He's not much so far and I continue to see the same thing.
Yes, sure I'm guessing, just like I said in my post:
Quote:
And you're simply guessing about how Ayers is going to play out - as anybody else is I guess because he took limited snaps last year.
I just choose to believe what I see when I watched him play the only extended snaps he got last season against Carolina where he notched up 6 total pressures including 1 sack.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:36 AM   #386
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Ayers has played 2192 snaps in 57 games for the Broncos. We're way past guessing how he will turn out.

It's funny, because we've been through the whole "Oops, no Doom, let's just plug in Ayers" thing before, from 2009 to 2010. Our defense went from #7 to #32.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:36 AM   #387
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Ayers was a full time starter at OLB in 2010 and at DE in 2011, and was horrible both years. Funny how our defense improves when he sees the field less.
It doesn't really matter what/how you think Ayers did in a different position in a different defense in a different year.

John Elway has pretty much said that right now Ayers is the starting RDE so the FO/coaches sort of share my opinion than yours right now.

We'll just have to see how it pans out.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:40 AM   #388
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He was on the field because there was nobody better behind him. It's a FACT that he was the worst DE in the league on run downs. That stat has been displayed here numerous times stop trying to play revisionist history. We ranked high against the run because we lead.

Look at the NO game they averaged over 5 ypc
One player isn't going to be the sole reason they averaged 5 ypc. It's hilarious that some think dumervil should tackle the RB when he runs to the other side of the line.

You would think teams wouldve just ran at him every play.

Last edited by Drunken.Broncoholic; 04-03-2013 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:52 AM   #389
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TIL that the RDE is the most important position of any defense.

Any other tidbits price?
Weak-side pass-rusher is generally the most important position on Defense and usually the highest paid. It's easy to see why. The Broncos just happen to have a super-human pass-rusher on the other side by the name of Von Miller who is excellent at exploiting RT's.


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I corrected what I said and college stats. What a failure of a way to judge a player.
College stats isn't the only criteria in player evaluation, but it is the most important one.

1. Stats
2. Athletic Ability
3. Character

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Old 04-03-2013, 09:53 AM   #390
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John Elway has pretty much said that right now Ayers is the starting RDE so the FO/coaches sort of share my opinion than yours right now.
Yup...... http://www.850koa.com/pages/krieger....ticle=11139339

Although one wonders whether or not this is a message to the FA's that they better lower their asking prices.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:00 AM   #391
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John Elway has pretty much said that right now Ayers is the starting RDE so the FO/coaches sort of share my opinion than yours right now.
.
Hard to believe what they say right before a draft. After the draft is when it will be a little bit clear.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:01 AM   #392
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He was on the field because there was nobody better behind him. It's a FACT that he was the worst DE in the league on run downs.
That's utter baloney.

Dumervil had 54 tackles, 11 sacks, and 6 FF's, and is a perennial Pro-Bowler.

Both of Denver's edge players (Dumervil and Miller) were asked to set the edge in the run game, and force everything else back inside, which Dumervil is outstanding at. 54 tackles show that Dumervil is no slouch at tracking down the ballcarrier.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:06 AM   #393
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It doesn't really matter what/how you think Ayers did in a different position in a different defense in a different year.

John Elway has pretty much said that right now Ayers is the starting RDE so the FO/coaches sort of share my opinion than yours right now.

We'll just have to see how it pans out.
I agree that Ayers is the starting RDE right now, mainly because there is no one else on the roster to fill that position. Luckily there is still the draft and FAs remaining, because I do not believe that the FO will be comfortable with starting a guy they recently demoted below Hunter, who they made no effort to re-sign, and allowed to go to a division rival. I don't think they like Ayers, and I think the only reason he's here is his $1m price tag.

I also don't think that the FO originally intended to have Wolfe play LDE all last season, I think that was necessitated by Hunter's injury and Ayers' general awfulness.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:08 AM   #394
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It doesn't really matter what/how you think Ayers did in a different position in a different defense in a different year.

John Elway has pretty much said that right now Ayers is the starting RDE so the FO/coaches sort of share my opinion than yours right now.

We'll just have to see how it pans out.
We also have to remember that we were still trying to reel in Freeney until the sticker shock settled in. Just cuz they're stuck with Ayers at this point doesn't mean that was the plan all along.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:12 AM   #395
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I guess there isn't much to talk about leading up to the draft.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:28 AM   #396
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I don't think they like Ayers, and I think the only reason he's here is his $1m price tag.

I also don't think that the FO originally intended to have Wolfe play LDE all last season, I think that was necessitated by Hunter's injury and Ayers' general awfulness.
Well this is where you and I disagree.

In the past I've been vocal about Ayers showing poor effort, poor hustle and not having good pass rush moves or decent explosion in his moves.

That all changed this year.

This year when he was specifically lined up at DE he consistently showed a very clean, explosive burst out of his stance and was comparabely as quick as Doom in that regard. He showed multiple pass rush moves, played in multiple positions (inside, LDE/RDE) and logged quality snaps against the Bengals and Panthers when he was used as a pass rusher against two very good LTs.

Here's what I'm talking about:
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=108629

Ultimately it comes down to the team watching Ayers against Cincy/Carolina and deciding whether those are fluke performances or something they can consistently get out of Ayers now that he's currently slated as the RDE allowing him to approach his offseason conditioning/training camp with that in mind and maybe even get down to the 265 lb range to help his speed.

It's not that much of a risk given he's only going to make $1million next year, the fact that Freeney/Phillips are still available and we still have the draft.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:40 AM   #397
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That's utter baloney.

Dumervil had 54 tackles, 11 sacks, and 6 FF's, and is a perennial Pro-Bowler.

Both of Denver's edge players (Dumervil and Miller) were asked to set the edge in the run game, and force everything else back inside, which Dumervil is outstanding at. 54 tackles show that Dumervil is no slouch at tracking down the ballcarrier.
don't let the facts get in your way

Quote:
Losing Dumervil could also impact Millerís production against the run, which is a minor concern. The impact could be positive or negative depending on a variety of factors. Dumervil was ranked 54th among 62 defensive ends (4-3) against the run by Pro Football Focus.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:46 AM   #398
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Here's another nugget on how Ayers has improved his pass rush moves albeit in our playoff loss against the Ravens:

Quote:
As he stepped up, Flacco slid slightly to his left as well to avoid Ayers. Again, the Broncos had done largely what they are supposed to do in the rush up front to that point of the play. And while his angle to Flacco could have been slightly better, Ayers had essentially beaten three Ravens linemen on the play.
Read more: Broncos' Robert Ayers had hand in fateful play vs. Ravens in playoffs - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz2PQ4pf7dM
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:03 AM   #399
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This whole "Doom sucks against the run" argument is so ****ing retarded.

We were 3rd in run defense last year, and second in rush avg, and no one gave a **** during the regular season about Doom's play vs the run. It's just that you have people with access to websites that tell them what to think, so they think they're smarter than most and then try to rationalize the loss of the player like Charger fans do.

And for those that say the stats are misleading since we always had the lead, wouldn't it make sense to think teams would start the game running, to limit Manning's possessions? I don't recall too many long drives by opposing teams early in games.

Bottom line is we lose more than we gain with Doom gone, and most people don't know as much as they think they do.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:06 AM   #400
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This is so far from the truth. Rushing a QB into a mistake helps teams win games. So many times I watched a QB throw off target. Into the grass. Into the sidelines. A 3rd down incomplete pass because of a hurry has the same effect as a sack. Sure there's isnt a 5 yard loss on the play, but it still forces a 4th down. And it happened alot for is last year.
I don't think I'm buying it. He was pretty poor against the better teams and didn't show up in the playoffs. I don't disagree that hurries are good, but when it's something that is continually brought up as his strong suit, I think it demonstrates that his value was diminishing.

I.e., sure he sucked against the run, didn't show up in the playoffs, played poor against strong teams but he had a ton of hurries!
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