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Old 03-31-2013, 10:45 AM   #251
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And for that matter, although you'd like to keep them, Woodyard, Colquitt, and Decker are all replacable. Good players but not necessarily "special".
well, i was trying not to seem like a cold-hearted ruthless bottom line mother****er but yeah pretty much.

DT,Clady,Manning,Von,Vazquez,Champ are really the only dudes that you have to keep, the rest are guys you can shift around and replace.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:46 AM   #252
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I'm not his critic. Actually I'm hated by some here because I disliked tebow so much. I was one of the most for manning coming here. But I can see reality of a persons age and what happens. Doesn't matter how great a shape you are in when you get into your late 30s your ability diminishes unless you're taking steroids. Pretty much why it's an age most retire at.
Well there has been 17 QB's (18 if you count Blanda) that have made a NFL roster at the age of 40 or older in NFL history. At this point I wouldn't bet against Manning or Brady joining that list as well.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:53 AM   #253
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What part of his game has diminished? Deep throws because he didn't throw deep on Baltimore? It wasn't because Baltimore played two deep Cover 2 forcing Peyton to have to settle for what was available underneath.

I seem to remember someone throwing deep balls during the year, against Baltimore on December 16th, I was at the game, which cause Baltimore to play two deep in the playoffs. It's not his arm strength, it's his nerve, he can't quiet grip the ball the same, whether that will improve or not remains to be seen. After last seasons incredible play, I wouldn't bet against him.. In fact I know he will be better this year.

I have history on my side. It is widely known that player ability drops with age. It's common sense. I saw it in Favre. Elway. Montana. Marino retired at 38. What was his reason? He didnt think his legs could handle another year. People get old man. Peyton is no different.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:54 AM   #254
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Well there has been 17 QB's (18 if you count Blanda) that have made a NFL roster at the age of 40 or older in NFL history. At this point I wouldn't bet against Manning or Brady joining that list as well.
We're they the same player as years past?
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:09 AM   #255
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We're they the same player as years past?
Brett Favre was better IMO. 33 TDs vs 7 INTs. Really besides Johnny Unitas and Warren Moon None of the other players were as even close to being on the level that Manning and Brady are on anyways. Then you have to take in the way the NFL plays vs the way it was in the past. That favors Manning and Brady even more.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:22 AM   #256
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Brett Favre was better IMO. 33 TDs vs 7 INTs. Really besides Johnny Unitas and Warren Moon None of the other players were as even close to being on the level that Manning and Brady are on anyways. Then you have to take in the way the NFL plays vs the way it was in the past. That favors Manning and Brady even more.
But his body couldn't keep up. You saw him end his game played streak. Then he couldn't play the final game. His age was telling his body it was over. He was really pushing it at his age. I give him props for that. Although I'm betting he was hitting the HGH pretty hard

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Old 03-31-2013, 06:27 PM   #257
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Vickerson was signed to be the starting UT in the base defense like he was last year. Knighton was signed to start at NT. He's replacing Bannan and is huge upgrade against the pass. Him and Vickerson also give the Broncos the best chance to collapse the pocket when teams throw the ball against the base D.
You have that backwards. Vickerson is the NT, and Knighton was signed to be the UT (because he theoretically has a little more ability to collapse the pocket). Whatever ability Knighton has, he's not a great 3-tech.

As I stated to start this conversation, Wolfe has MUCH better ability to collapse the pocket at UT then Knighton...and should be playing at there (at 3-tech (not 5-tech).

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This! Price doesn't know Knighton can push the pocket and Vickerson is a big athletic UT. Price doesn't comprehend our current scheme, hence his Knighton hate..
The Broncos run a 4-3 Under. One side is like a 3-4, and the other side is like a 4-3. That is something you don't understand. I don't hate Knighton, I just don't like him at 3-tech.

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Ok, try to stay with me on this because I guess for you this is difficult to understand. The article clearly states that the reality of the Broncos defense is that it operates more like a 3-4 than a 4-3, regardless of if this is true or not, here's the deal with Knighten:

If Wolf lines up inside with Knighten, and Knighten gets double teamed, does this not leave Wolfe in a one-on-one situation? Wolfe, being the superior pass rusher, should be able to consistently beat whatever blocker is assigned to him, correct? Again, Knighten helps Wolfe by absorbing more attention from the opposing offensive line.

Your only valid argument about Knighten being a wasted FA pick up is IF opposing offensive lines double up Wolfe and leave Knighten in a one-on-one situation and Knighten can't take advantage of this. IF this is what you are saying, ok, but again, I like any of our defensive line guys, including Ayers, Jackson, Wolfe, Vickerson and yes Knighten in a one-on-one match up. Knighten is a huge DT/NT. He should be able to get inside pressure if he's blocked by one guy like a center or guard. Is he gonna do a swim move, or a quick spin move and simply get to the opposing QB with quickness, No. Is he gonna collapse the pocket and push the opposing offensive lineman back into the QB, yes. Regardless if Knighten gets a sack or not, his ability to create pressure by collapsing the pocket is what the Broncos are looking for, that is, if Knighten does not demand a double team.
The Broncos Defense is a hybrid of both 3-4 and 4-3 (a 4-3 Under). Neither Knighton, nor Vickerson 'require' a double-team. Wolfe sometimes does. If you don't have a true impact NT (a guy who requires a double-team), it would be much more preferable to me to have a guy who can beat one-on-one matchups consistently. Wolfe can. Vickerson can't. The jury is out on Pot Roast, but his career history gives no indication that he's an impact player. That's exactly why I would rather have kept Dumervil (instead of wasting money on non-impact players like Knighton), have Wolfe play at 3-tech almost all the time, Malik Jackson, Robert Ayers (or a draft pick) play 5-tech, and Vickerson play NT.

The Broncos only play an odd front 35% of the time...why waste nearly $5M on two guys (Vickerson/Knighton), who are basically the same player?...And release a perennial Pro Bowler? They could have, and should have done more to keep Dumervil, but their hands are tied because they have signed way to many marginal FA's to over-priced contracts, when there are already better players (like Wolfe and Dumervil) on the roster.

I would much prefer this base defense (which would collapse the pocket quickly):
Dumervil, Wolfe, Vickerson, Ayers, Miller

To the one we are now stuck with (almost no pass-rush ability outside of Miller):
Ayers, Knighton, Vickerson, Wolfe, Miller

Now the Broncos have to waste a 1st round draft pick on a RDE.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:48 PM   #258
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Price go into the other thread and see post #105. I know more about this defense than you.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:55 PM   #259
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Price, Knighton is the NT he was signed to upgrade Bannan..

You don't even know how important Wolfe is to Miller. You take such a basic look at things and say oh Doom, Wolfe, Vickerson, Ayers should be our base D. That would be very easily gashed in the run game. Wolfe will play inside when it matters the most, passing downs. You don't even know who plays where and how and why our scheme works, and how Wolfe plays as a 3-4 DE similar to Justin Smith, and frees up Miller.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:22 PM   #260
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No. I'm saying he isn't playing like he's 27.

A persons age in the sports world has considerable effects on a players ability. Turning from 26 to 27 has no effect. Turning 36 to 37, or 37 to 38 does. Unless you are Barry bonds your ability is going to drop.
while I agree that Father Time can be very unforgiving with his mandate of skill deteriorating let's not forget that Craig Morton had arguably his best season statistically when he was 38...Kurt Warner's statistical success at age 36, 37, and 38...Elway playing at a high level despite being 37-38 himself....Brett Favre's play for the Vikings at 40 in 2009....Warren Moon's play at 39 when he threw for 33 TD's as a Viking.

Today's strength and conditioning knowledge has enable many players extend their careers......just saying.

however I also think if the Broncos win the SB this year, Manning will be very tempted to retire soon afterwards. Hopefully he'll want to go out with back to back titles and stay one more season.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:58 PM   #261
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Price, Knighton is the NT he was signed to upgrade Bannan..

You don't even know how important Wolfe is to Miller. You take such a basic look at things and say oh Doom, Wolfe, Vickerson, Ayers should be our base D. That would be very easily gashed in the run game. Wolfe will play inside when it matters the most, passing downs. You don't even know who plays where and how and why our scheme works, and how Wolfe plays as a 3-4 DE similar to Justin Smith, and frees up Miller.
I take offense to your comments.

1. I know Wolfe plays in the 5-tech in the base defense (which the Broncos play 35% of the time). As I've stated a million times, he's not good there. I rewatched Defensive plays so many times this season it made my eyes bleed. A faster player is necessary at that position (someone like Datone Jones). And no, it's not necessary for Wolfe to play by Von Miller. It is necessary for a strong, powerful, and fast player who can beat NFL OT's, or split the RG/OT, to play at that position. Wolfe plays the run well in the base Defense, but is a complete liability in the passing game when lining up against an OT. He's too far away from the QB (at 5-tech) to make a difference.

2.
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You know who runs a very similar scheme.. Seattle.
Your own words buddy. Look at the picture. Study it.



As you can see, the Seattle/Broncos base Defense deployed a LEO (Dumervil), 3-tech (Bannan), 1-tech (Vickerson), 5-tech (Wolfe), and SAM (Miller). If you have any questions about this, rewatch the games, look at online depth charts...do whatever it takes. Vickerson lined up next to Wolfe, and Bannan lined up next to Dumervil.

I am quite aware of every single player on the Broncos and what position they play. I have been one of the world's biggest Bronco fans for over 30 years. I'm also an Electrical Engineer, and pay close attention to detail. Don't insult me.

3. By your own admission, the LB's were 'weak and undersized'. MIKE needed to be upgraded. Woodyard can't fight through blocks very well. You don't sign a big, mediocre 3-tech (Knighton), just to hold off Offensive Lineman from your puny slow MIKE. Get a better MIKE. 3-tech's are not meant to play like NT's. They are meant to crash through the OL and MAKE PLAYS. Upgrading MIKE won't happen now that the Broncos need a 4-3 DE to replace Dumervil. Upgrading the 3-tech in the base Defense (to Wolfe) won't happen either until JDR moves on....which is a shame.

4. In a 4-3 Under (what the Broncos, and Seahawks play in base defense), one side plays like a 3-4 (usually Vickerson, Wolfe, Miller), and the right side plays like a 4-3 (Bannan, Dumervil). Losing Dumervil will probably cost the Broncos an opportunity of a Superbowl because they don't have enough fingers to plug the holes in the dike. Dumervil is a Pro Bowl RDE in the prime of his career...and worth every penny.

5. Ayers is not a good LEO. He's a strongside 4-3 DE, or backup.

6. Knighton is not a good 3-tech. Good 3-tech's get 7+ sacks a year. Knighton has 7 sacks in his entire career. He's a remotely disruptive big DT (like Vickerson).

7. Vickerson is not a good 1-tech. He is not strong/athletic enough to require a double-team, and doesn't overpower single coverage. At least he's a solid, and I like him.

8. Wolfe is not a good 5-tech. He's too slow, and not dynamic enough to beat NFL OT's in passing situations. But he is a good 3-tech.

9. Irving is not a good MIKE. He's unproven and slow. So far he is a backup. Could have drafted Te'o/Brown in the 1st...can't now.

10. Adams is not a good SS. Could have drafted an upgrade, but it will be tough to do considering all the other positions that need upgraded.

11. Need an upgrade at RB. Maybe they will get lucky and draft Johnathan Franklin in the 2nd. Leaving the main problem from 2012 (MIKE, and SS) completely unaddressed.

12. All the Broncos had to do was keep Dumervil and move Wolfe to 3-tech...they utterly failed and now have holes EVERYWHERE, with players playing out of position and backups starting...with not enough draft picks to do anything about it.

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Old 03-31-2013, 09:37 PM   #262
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The Broncos run a 4-3 Under. One side is like a 3-4, and the other side is like a 4-3. That is something you don't understand. I don't hate Knighton, I just don't like him at 3-tech.



The Broncos Defense is a hybrid of both 3-4 and 4-3 (a 4-3 Under). Neither Knighton, nor Vickerson 'require' a double-team. Wolfe sometimes does. If you don't have a true impact NT (a guy who requires a double-team), it would be much more preferable to me to have a guy who can beat one-on-one matchups consistently. Wolfe can. Vickerson can't. The jury is out on Pot Roast, but his career history gives no indication that he's an impact player. That's exactly why I would rather have kept Dumervil (instead of wasting money on non-impact players like Knighton), have Wolfe play at 3-tech almost all the time, Malik Jackson, Robert Ayers (or a draft pick) play 5-tech, and Vickerson play NT.

The Broncos only play an odd front 35% of the time...why waste nearly $5M on two guys (Vickerson/Knighton), who are basically the same player?...And release a perennial Pro Bowler? They could have, and should have done more to keep Dumervil, but their hands are tied because they have signed way to many marginal FA's to over-priced contracts, when there are already better players (like Wolfe and Dumervil) on the roster.

I would much prefer this base defense (which would collapse the pocket quickly):
Dumervil, Wolfe, Vickerson, Ayers, Miller

To the one we are now stuck with (almost no pass-rush ability outside of Miller):
Ayers, Knighton, Vickerson, Wolfe, Miller

Now the Broncos have to waste a 1st round draft pick on a RDE.
Ok, I did a quick search about Knighton getting double teamed because for whatever reason you claim he doesn't get double teamed. Here's this article: http://cherry-and-white.blogspot.com...se-in-nfl.html Please note where it says this:

Terrance is frequently double teamed. Tyson Alualu jumps around. So what he see happening is three things. First, Terrance forms a wall for Aaron Kampman to come around. Terrance pushes the double team back and Aaron sneaks around back. We got a sack against Miami that way. Second is a stunt with Tyson where they cross. Third, if Terrance is single teamed, he pushes the guy into the backfield. They are teaching him a lot of different items, but I donít expect a lot of sacks from him

Then there's this article: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/pos...m-cox-knighton Please note this particular part:

Smith said he expects Knight to be better, and to regularly draw the sort of double teams that allow for the other tackles to have one-on-one matchups with guards who should be beaten.

Knighton was expected to draw double teams when the Jags drafted him, that's what JDR expected from him and nothing has changed. Just because you claim he won't draw double teams does not make it so. Sorry.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:45 PM   #263
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This is the Broncos 4-3 Under. The base Defense which they play 35% of the time.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:54 PM   #264
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This is the Broncos 4-3 Under. The base Defense which they play 35% of the time.
Why do you keep putting Vickerson at NT? Knighton will be the NT, Vickerson will be the 3 technique.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:02 PM   #265
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This is the the gap responsibility in a 4-3 Under. Notice that the right side plays like a typical 4-3, and the left side plays like a 3-4.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:06 PM   #266
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Why do you keep putting Vickerson at NT? Knighton will be the NT, Vickerson will be the 3 technique.
Bannan played on the right side in base defense (3-tech). Knighton is replacing Bannan.

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Old 03-31-2013, 10:13 PM   #267
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Bannan played on the right side in base defense (3-tech). Knighton is replacing Bannan.

Vickerson is strictly a 2-down NT. However it doesn't really matter which player you stick at 3-tech...they both are liabilities against the pass.
Bannon is gone, yes. That doesn't mean that Knighton will play his position! They will move Knighton to NT and shift Vickerson to 3 tech. The only reason Vickerson played NT is because he was the biggest DT on the team. Well, not anymore. Knighton's natural position is NT.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:17 PM   #268
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Enough with Dumervil already. Denver tried, and unless you have serious issues, HE WAS NOT WORTH 12 million a year. Denver did not win a single playoff game last year, Dumervil was a complete waste and to say we do not have a chance at the superbowl without him is nuts... We did not win a playoff game with him.


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Old 03-31-2013, 10:27 PM   #269
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Bannon is gone, yes. That doesn't mean that Knighton will play his position! They will move Knighton to NT and shift Vickerson to 3 tech. The only reason Vickerson played NT is because he was the biggest DT on the team. Well, not anymore. Knighton's natural position is NT.
I don't think so. The 3-tech should be a guy like Warren Sapp, Richard Seymour, Ndamukong Suh, or Geno Atkins.

The 4-3 Under was developed to isolate the weakside DT in a one-on-one matchup with the LG. The 3-tech has to be able to consistently beat the LG, and should get 5+ sacks every year. Elite 3-tech's can get 10 sacks per year.

Wolfe is the only DT we have who can do that. Knighton might be decent, but nothing special. They have bigger fish to fry now. Gotta find another Dumervil.

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Old 03-31-2013, 10:46 PM   #270
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Enough with Dumervil already. Denver tried, and unless you have serious issues, HE WAS NOT WORTH 12 million a year. Denver did not win a single playoff game last year, Dumervil was a complete waste and to say we do not have a chance at the superbowl without him is nuts... We did not win a playoff game with him.


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Old 04-01-2013, 03:51 AM   #271
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PRICE, your damn pictures have done nothing but agree with what I have said. Wolfe is an unbelieveable 5 tech DE in our scheme. Stop thinking DE so simplistic, he plays like a DT, he is perfect as a 5 tech and since you talked him up for the last 3 years, you should love the way he plays and want him to stay there. If Ayers was capable of doing the same job as Wolfe, Wolfe would have been inside much more, but here's a news flash, WE DON'T AND WON'T BE RUNNING A BASIC 4-3. There's a big reason why, he happens to be our best defensive player...

Knighton is a NT and will be a NT in our scheme. He played NT in Jacksonville, he will be playing that position here. Vickerson will be our big athletic UT. Who will do what he does best, stop the run, disrupt the pocket, and chase plays down. One of Vickerson or Knighton WILL require a double team.

Unless you move Miller to RDE, our defense will not be a basic 4-3, and if that was the intention, we would have signed a new SLB and probably would have signed Knighton, rather Bannan as a cheap back up. Something like..

Miller, Wolfe, Vickerson, Ayers,.... Woodyard, Irving, Daryl Smith

But our Defense will not be looking like that. Because Von is playing as a Sam. I think it's funny you equate losing Doom to blowing our chances at a SB. He sure plays big when it matters the most.. I think our offense will be so dynamic that it will put us over the top, not the loss of doom. Ayers will be fine on run downs, and a pass rushing specialist only has to win one on one matchups to be successful, and since your an electrical engineer, you probably don't have a lot of time to view prospects, but we DON'T have to trade up in the first and you don't have to spend a first rounder..
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:38 AM   #272
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To add to the Broncos D discussion...

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...tackles-part-1
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:08 AM   #273
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:56 AM   #274
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I take offense to your comments.

1. I know Wolfe plays in the 5-tech in the base defense (which the Broncos play 35% of the time). As I've stated a million times, he's not good there. I rewatched Defensive plays so many times this season it made my eyes bleed. A faster player is necessary at that position (someone like Datone Jones). And no, it's not necessary for Wolfe to play by Von Miller. It is necessary for a strong, powerful, and fast player who can beat NFL OT's, or split the RG/OT, to play at that position. Wolfe plays the run well in the base Defense, but is a complete liability in the passing game when lining up against an OT. He's too far away from the QB (at 5-tech) to make a difference.

2.

Your own words buddy. Look at the picture. Study it.



As you can see, the Seattle/Broncos base Defense deployed a LEO (Dumervil), 3-tech (Bannan), 1-tech (Vickerson), 5-tech (Wolfe), and SAM (Miller). If you have any questions about this, rewatch the games, look at online depth charts...do whatever it takes. Vickerson lined up next to Wolfe, and Bannan lined up next to Dumervil.

I am quite aware of every single player on the Broncos and what position they play. I have been one of the world's biggest Bronco fans for over 30 years. I'm also an Electrical Engineer, and pay close attention to detail. Don't insult me.

3. By your own admission, the LB's were 'weak and undersized'. MIKE needed to be upgraded. Woodyard can't fight through blocks very well. You don't sign a big, mediocre 3-tech (Knighton), just to hold off Offensive Lineman from your puny slow MIKE. Get a better MIKE. 3-tech's are not meant to play like NT's. They are meant to crash through the OL and MAKE PLAYS. Upgrading MIKE won't happen now that the Broncos need a 4-3 DE to replace Dumervil. Upgrading the 3-tech in the base Defense (to Wolfe) won't happen either until JDR moves on....which is a shame.

4. In a 4-3 Under (what the Broncos, and Seahawks play in base defense), one side plays like a 3-4 (usually Vickerson, Wolfe, Miller), and the right side plays like a 4-3 (Bannan, Dumervil). Losing Dumervil will probably cost the Broncos an opportunity of a Superbowl because they don't have enough fingers to plug the holes in the dike. Dumervil is a Pro Bowl RDE in the prime of his career...and worth every penny.

5. Ayers is not a good LEO. He's a strongside 4-3 DE, or backup.

6. Knighton is not a good 3-tech. Good 3-tech's get 7+ sacks a year. Knighton has 7 sacks in his entire career. He's a remotely disruptive big DT (like Vickerson).

7. Vickerson is not a good 1-tech. He is not strong/athletic enough to require a double-team, and doesn't overpower single coverage. At least he's a solid, and I like him.

8. Wolfe is not a good 5-tech. He's too slow, and not dynamic enough to beat NFL OT's in passing situations. But he is a good 3-tech.

9. Irving is not a good MIKE. He's unproven and slow. So far he is a backup. Could have drafted Te'o/Brown in the 1st...can't now.

10. Adams is not a good SS. Could have drafted an upgrade, but it will be tough to do considering all the other positions that need upgraded.

11. Need an upgrade at RB. Maybe they will get lucky and draft Johnathan Franklin in the 2nd. Leaving the main problem from 2012 (MIKE, and SS) completely unaddressed.

12. All the Broncos had to do was keep Dumervil and move Wolfe to 3-tech...they utterly failed and now have holes EVERYWHERE, with players playing out of position and backups starting...with not enough draft picks to do anything about it.
So I'm to believe that the coaches decide to gamble ask doom for a haircut knowing that if Elvis walks the defense would be left in disarray
All for 4mm in savings

That doesn't pass the smell test at all

Sorry you're chicken little act is growing tiresome
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:06 AM   #275
Tombstone RJ
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Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
I don't think so. The 3-tech should be a guy like Warren Sapp, Richard Seymour, Ndamukong Suh, or Geno Atkins.

The 4-3 Under was developed to isolate the weakside DT in a one-on-one matchup with the LG. The 3-tech has to be able to consistently beat the LG, and should get 5+ sacks every year. Elite 3-tech's can get 10 sacks per year.

Wolfe is the only DT we have who can do that. Knighton might be decent, but nothing special. They have bigger fish to fry now. Gotta find another Dumervil.
You don't have a shred of proof for assuming Knighton will play 3 tech and Vickerson NT. In fact, everything points to Knighton being brought in to play the NT and using Vickerson as the other large DT in the middle of the defensiving line. Whether Vickerson plays the 3 tech or Wolfe or Jackson or Ayers is still up in the air. But Knighton will play NT, regardless of what you think.
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