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Old 03-29-2013, 10:28 AM   #51
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I lied. I just went through all the games he had a sack in and I came up with 3.5 sacks for the whole season at points where the score was close. The other 7.5 came when we were up by 2 scores or more late in the game, or up by more than 2 scores earlier in the game.
I am relatively indifferent to Dumervil leaving, but those stats aren't really telling of anything. We were up by 2 scores a great deal last season, of course the majority of the sacks would occur then. That's how the flow of a game works. More passing downs means more opportunity for sacks.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:37 AM   #52
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I am relatively indifferent to Dumervil leaving, but those stats aren't really telling of anything. We were up by 2 scores a great deal last season, of course the majority of the sacks would occur then. That's how the flow of a game works. More passing downs means more opportunity for sacks.
Exactly my point. He only had 11 sacks even though we were up almost all of the time..and up big.

So how many would he have on a team that is in close games until the end where you are having to worry about the run as well?

This is all part of my point that he is a pretty good player, but not worth big dollars.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:44 AM   #53
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Exactly my point. He only had 11 sacks even though we were up almost all of the time..and up big.

So how many would he have on a team that is in close games until the end where you are having to worry about the run as well?

This is all part of my point that he is a pretty good player, but not worth big dollars.
I agree overall with your point. Doom was good not great.

I think we make up for his sack numbers overall, probably not all from the DE position. I also think the Defense will be better overall, not better because he left,but better regardless.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:16 PM   #54
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I agree overall with your point. Doom was good not great.

I think we make up for his sack numbers overall, probably not all from the DE position. I also think the Defense will be better overall, not better because he left,but better regardless.
Right, and we will have more cap room down the road because of it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:18 PM   #55
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Go **** yourself Doom. You are dead to me...
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:27 PM   #56
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Exactly my point. He only had 11 sacks even though we were up almost all of the time..and up big.

So how many would he have on a team that is in close games until the end where you are having to worry about the run as well?

This is all part of my point that he is a pretty good player, but not worth big dollars.
He had the second most sacks on a team that led the league in sacks. You're expecting a bit much. There's only so many sacks to go around. The inability to bring pressure from both bookends would hurt Von's numbers more than anyone. We just removed one of the two most important pieces of maybe the best pass rush in the NFL. Von doesn't earn all his numbers by himself.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:30 PM   #57
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He had the second most sacks on a team that led the league in sacks. You're expecting a bit much. There's only so many sacks to go around. The inability to bring pressure from both bookends would hurt Von's numbers more than anyone. We just removed one of the two most important pieces of maybe the best pass rush in the NFL. Von doesn't earn all his numbers by himself.
We'll see.

I'm not worried
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:52 PM   #58
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That makes zero sense. If he was part of a plot to sucker Denver into paying him the $12 million, then his obvious goal was to get the maximum amount of dollars possible. That means he would have accepted the Broncos better offer later on. The fact that he took the Ravens lesser offer suggests that he was basing his decision off hurt feelings and ego rather than duplicitous greed.
If you're buying the notion that his agent was the only one who made mistakes in the kinkos/faxsnafu, that's fine. I think the agent did what he was told to do. And I believe Dumervil's head had swelled to the point that he felt it was a "slight" for the team to even approach him about his contract. Realistic people knew they were going to... and that it was nothing more than a business thing. And we're in agreement that the problem was overblown ego and hurt feelings. 'Cause Dumervil obviously took a business decision personally.

I just don't like how it went down... and have always resented any former Bronco who trashed the team to the media on his way out of town; regardless of whether it was Brister or Romanowski or Plummer or Kennison.... or now Dumervil. Makes 'em "dead-to-me".
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:34 PM   #59
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would love to know what dooms team mates think about this
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:23 PM   #60
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The Broncos tried to screw Dumervil and then he screwed the Broncos. Sounds fair and I wish him the best. Very good player and hard worker.

Let's not forget this process started with the Broncos demanding a pay cut all the way down to a $6.5 million salary. Players have their pride. And now a washed up DE like Freeney wants $6 million from the Broncos.

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Old 03-29-2013, 03:28 PM   #61
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The Broncos tried to screw Dumervil and then he screwed the Broncos. Sounds fair and I wish him the best. Very good player and hard worker.
Totally disagree. Asking a player to take a pay cut happens all the time and doesn't constitute "trying to screw him". Dumervil was paid very well during his time in Denver and has no realistic justification for hard feelings.
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:29 PM   #62
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I don't buy the argument that Dumervil and his agent waited so long with the hope that Denver made the entire salary guaranteed. I do think there was some confusion by both sides, and definitely think that Elway's very public comments of Dumervil being grossly overpaid, helped Dumervil decide he wanted to play elsewhere.

It will hurt Denver's pass rush, unless they can get a big contributor in the draft but it isn't going to kill the team either.
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:59 PM   #63
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How the eff can you argue that the guy who led the DL in tackles is only good for nabbing sacks.
He only had 14 run stops all yr according to Profootballfocus who grades every play of every player. The reason he gets tackles is because teams run at him all day. He makes tackles but they grade out as wins for the offense because they are often on early downs and they move the ball. When you give up 3-4 yards a carry on your side that isnt stopping the run. Thats letting the offense into a 3-3 which is makeable.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:01 PM   #64
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I don't buy the argument that Dumervil and his agent waited so long with the hope that Denver made the entire salary guaranteed. I do think there was some confusion by both sides, and definitely think that Elway's very public comments of Dumervil being grossly overpaid, helped Dumervil decide he wanted to play elsewhere.

It will hurt Denver's pass rush, unless they can get a big contributor in the draft but it isn't going to kill the team either.
I think other players will see how Doom got less and now feel leaving might not always be the best thing. Elway was spot on about what other teams would pay doom. Elway IMO knows the market pretty well.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:04 PM   #65
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I think other players will see how Doom got less and now feel leaving might not always be the best thing. Elway was spot on about what other teams would pay doom. Elway IMO knows the market pretty well.
Elway was right, but I'm not a fan of going public with negotiations. I know Elway wants some level of transparency with the organization, but firmly believe had it been kept in house, Dumervil is a Bronco right now.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:06 PM   #66
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Is Elvis a ring of honor player after all the dust settles? He was on pace but I'd lean to say no at this point.
There's no way Elvis goes in the Ring of Fame due to the whacked set of circumstances that led to his departure.

Besides, Elvis would have needed a few more 10+ sacks seasons to get in the Ring of Fame.

If Simon Fletcher isn't there, Elvis Dumervil shouldn't be there either.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:19 PM   #67
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He only had 14 run stops all yr according to Profootballfocus who grades every play of every player.
Pro Football Focus?? Really?

This is how their Run Stop % works:

Player A played 100 snaps and made 10 stops. Stop % = 10%

Player B played 100 snaps and made 5 stops. Stop % = 5%

A genius must have created this thing. They don't consider which play was ran, they don't study the player's responsibility on the play, they don't even consider where the ball carrier was going. They simply count the snaps and how many times the player made a "stop", which is a stat created by them...

Let's suppose Player A, a LDE and Player B, a RDE, play the same number of run snaps. The offensive coordinator calls 10 runs to the right, directed at the gap controlled by Player A; he misses 7 tackles and makes 3 stops. 2 runs to the left are directed at the gap controlled by Player B; he makes 2 stops. Same number of run snaps, Player A made 3 stops, then he gets a higher Run Stop % than Player B.

That's how they make their "specialized" stats. PFF had Joe freakin' Mays as the #1 LB in Run Stop %. The offensive coordinator will call 20 runs up the middle where Joe Mays is a weakness. Mays will stay blocked 5 times, miss 10 tackles and make 5 "stops". The only thing they're counting is that Mays played 20 snaps and made 5 stops.

Tom Nalen and Mark Schlereth praised Dumervil's performance against the run. Jack Del Rio gave Dumervil more snaps than any other defensive lineman on the roster. Joe Mays, the #1 LB from PFF? Benched because he was missing too many tackles and giving games away.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:10 PM   #68
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^ Exactly. Dumervil had 54 tackles in 2012 (as a DE), that tells me all I need to know about his ability to stop the run.

There are only a handful of players who can average 50+ tackles, and 10+ sacks per year.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:12 PM   #69
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I don't buy the argument that Dumervil and his agent waited so long with the hope that Denver made the entire salary guaranteed. I do think there was some confusion by both sides, and definitely think that Elway's very public comments of Dumervil being grossly overpaid, helped Dumervil decide he wanted to play elsewhere.

It will hurt Denver's pass rush, unless they can get a big contributor in the draft but it isn't going to kill the team either.
If Elway's blunt-but-accurate comments changed Dumervil's mind about wanting to play for the Broncos, then he should have just said so. Why go ahead and sign the contract and submit it late with a BS excuse of "technical issues"? With today's technology, it didn't have to be via fax and it didn't have to be Kinkos. The explanation raises more questions than it answers. It's just not believable.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:03 AM   #70
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People can argue stats on if Doom is good vs run. You can attack the methodology on pro football focus. But when i watch the games i dont see him make an impact vs the run. He does clean up some backside plays and do a decent job not letting players get outside on him. Overall though i see him getting pushed around.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:07 AM   #71
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It still hurts to lose Doom. He's probably better off at OLB we will see how he does. He's gone though so like pining over ex g/f's its a waste of time. You work around his crappy run defense by not asking him to do it much. Now we will probably have someone who isn't a great pass rusher. We will have to get creative and blitz the linebackers more. We should have a good secondary but you never know. Hopefully we can bring Woodyard a little more this yr. I think if he works at it he could be a good blitzer.
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:14 PM   #72
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Dumervil was even a goal line DE for the Broncos this past season. He was not "manhandled" or pushed around. The first thing he does is extend his arm and lock the OT. At this point he uses his leverage and reads the run. As Del Rio said during the season, Dumervil played with the necessary technique and leverage that allowed him to be an every-down DE. He was not a force against the run, but was not a liability. Good enough to play more snaps than any other DL and keep the LBs clean. Like any pass rusher, sometimes he "ran the arc" and went after the QB during a running play (RB draw, for example) and then his side of the line was exposed.

32 solo tackles and 22 assisted tackles. The high number of assisted tackles for a DE indicate Dumervil was not being pushed around at all, he was right there in the action to make the tackle. Flacco did a great job feeling the pressure and making quick decisions, but Dumervil had a good game in the playoffs. Ozzie Newsome and John Harbaugh would not have made Dumervil their starting OLB if he were as bad as some people think he is.

Now that Dumervil is no longer with the Broncos, I expect some fans to soon appreciate him a little more. The defense will miss him. He probably can't be replaced by just one player unless the Broncos hit the bull's eye in this draft. What we'll probably see on the field is a pass rusher that does not care about the run (like Freeney, who takes plays off if it's not a pass) or a base DE that can't rush the passer.
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:45 PM   #73
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Elway was right, but I'm not a fan of going public with negotiations. I know Elway wants some level of transparency with the organization, but firmly believe had it been kept in house, Dumervil is a Bronco right now.
Yeah, it was mishandled by Elway. Especially since post-cut Elway offered Elvis a contract that was almost as big of a 2013 cap hit as the original $12m.

Long term it was a savings, but as said by many here the window with Peyton is closing and it would have been nice to keep a solid proven RDE that can put pressure on LT's. There's not a lot of RDE's that can put constant pressure on LT's one-on-one and Elvis was one of them.
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:18 PM   #74
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Dumervil was even a goal line DE for the Broncos this past season. He was not "manhandled" or pushed around. The first thing he does is extend his arm and lock the OT. At this point he uses his leverage and reads the run. As Del Rio said during the season, Dumervil played with the necessary technique and leverage that allowed him to be an every-down DE. He was not a force against the run, but was not a liability. Good enough to play more snaps than any other DL and keep the LBs clean. Like any pass rusher, sometimes he "ran the arc" and went after the QB during a running play (RB draw, for example) and then his side of the line was exposed.

32 solo tackles and 22 assisted tackles. The high number of assisted tackles for a DE indicate Dumervil was not being pushed around at all, he was right there in the action to make the tackle. Flacco did a great job feeling the pressure and making quick decisions, but Dumervil had a good game in the playoffs. Ozzie Newsome and John Harbaugh would not have made Dumervil their starting OLB if he were as bad as some people think he is.

Now that Dumervil is no longer with the Broncos, I expect some fans to soon appreciate him a little more. The defense will miss him. He probably can't be replaced by just one player unless the Broncos hit the bull's eye in this draft. What we'll probably see on the field is a pass rusher that does not care about the run (like Freeney, who takes plays off if it's not a pass) or a base DE that can't rush the passer.
IIRC, Balt's runs went to their right side, away from Elvis. They kept attacking on the right side of their O. They also attacked from the right side on passing plays, where JDR had vacated Champ from LCB and put Tony Carter in. And kept dropping Von Miller into coverage where he did nothing instead of rushing Flacco.
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:27 PM   #75
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So balt ran more running plays to the strong side? Imagine that.
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