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Old 03-27-2013, 08:06 AM   #76
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I think they are extremely high on Tandon Doss and I would be willing to wager that the Ravens will snag another WR in this deep class. Was Boldin worth what he was going to make? Maybe, maybe not. We will see. I wouldn't bet against Ozzie.
Perhaps, but I believe my eyes. There were several times late last year when Flacco threw it up for grabs only for Boldin to adjust and come down with it. That's a skill not a lot of receivers have, and Tandon Doss certainly doesn't. In fact, i think the last Broncos receiver I remember with that kind of ability was, well laughably, Javon Walker. When the Ravens figured this out, their offense went to another level. We'll see what happens without it
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:11 AM   #77
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In fact, i think the last Broncos receiver I remember with that kind of ability was, well laughably, Javon Walker.
Spending much time with Brett Favre will do that to a guy.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:17 AM   #78
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In fact, i think the last Broncos receiver I remember with that kind of ability was, well laughably, Javon Walker.
I'd actually put Brandon Marshall above Javon Walker in this regard.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:26 AM   #79
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.......
I would not bet against Datone Jones. He is extremely athletic, gets up the field quickly and disrupts the run and pass game well. He also puts his hands up and deflects balls if he knows he isn't going to make it to the QB. He is a cerebral player with a great mental grasp of the game. If the Broncos were willing to take a guy like Malik Jackson who had similar experience moving inside and out on their defensive fronts, I would expect Jones (who is a better prospect and just as versatile) to catch the eyes of the coaches.

Why people are getting caught up with the whole LDE/RDE, etc. thing is beyond me. If you don't think that the coaches can tweek schematics in order to play to the strengths of those on the field. . . well. . . I just don't know what to say. Jones is going to have a much better career as a pro if he stays at end and gets to grow there.

Will he ever be a 15+ sack guy in the NFL? Probably not. Few are. But I think the guy has the potential to be a complete end who offers quality support against the run and the pass. 8-10 sacks a year, but a lot of TFL and the ability to be more stout against the run than Dumervil was.

Just my 2 cents. As I said, pricejj needs to stop looking at just production and actually understand how scheme and player responsibility and assignments can impact that.
Good points on Datone Req, it would be nice to have a Freeney or Abraham for a decent price to help groom the rookie and offer a little built in production there from the outset, but Im fine with going draft to put the finishing touches on our Dline alone with getting more from Wolfe, Ayers, Malik, Beal and the rookie ...

Wolfe is going to be monster this year. I expect a 'relative' improvement from him along the lines of the 'relative' improvement we saw from year 1 to year 2 in JJ Watt... That doesn't mean he's going to put up JJ numbers this year, but I do expect a similar comparative jump in his output to that of Watt in their sophomore years.

From all reports, Wolfe is on a mission this off season and I would not at all be surprise to see him grab at least 9 or more sacks with his motor and desire and be a very disruptive force in the opposing backfield, with Knighton too helping Big Vick collapse the inner pocket much better than we have seen around here in a long time, and Ayers/MAlik crashing in from the other side I don't see an insurmountable issue replacing Dooms 11 sacks even with the collective approach with the guys we have now in year two in JDR's Defense.

And when you include a solid rookie prospect at DE that will surely be a major priority in the first two rounds of this draft, not getting an older Freeney or Abraham isn't the kind of concern to start pulling any hair over.

When Elway, Fox, JDR and Matt Russell game planned the Doom salary drop, they factored all of these scenarios into the equation knowing full well it was possible Doom would leave.

It's a calculus, and though Doom made a decent contribution last year his 11 sacks in 16 full games with Von drawing so much constant heat from the other side showed to me a bit of a drop off in what we would have expected from Doom in a full 16 games he played. At his $12 mil salary it was a no-brainer he had to come down or leave.

Sucks that it unraveled in the unexpected way it did with the agents screw up , but the FO had this contingency plugged in from day one and felt good about improving the overall team even without Doom.

I'm all for a rookie to add to what we have with Wolfe too on the prowl and both Ayers/Jackson, and perhaps Beal if he turns it on this offseason, in sustaining consistent QB pressure enough to keep Von roaming freely without too many double teams.

Last edited by Hulamau; 03-28-2013 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:33 AM   #80
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I'd actually put Brandon Marshall above Javon Walker in this regard.
I'm not so sure about that. Walker had that innate ability to track long passes and somehow come down with them. I don't recall Marshall doing that as well, but my memory sucks, so you might be right.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:38 AM   #81
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At the end of the day we need a vet for depth. We let Hunter go so signing either one of them could work. Right now I am all for the draft a stud campaign. But having a vet teaching the ropes to a young speed/power rusher would be great. Prefer Freeney, but if he is thinking that we will even come close to 6 mil, he will be curved stomped by our FO a la KC Chiefs by Manning.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:42 AM   #82
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Wolfe is going to be monster this year. I expect a 'relative' improvement from him along the lines of the 'relative' improvement we saw from year 1 to year 2 in JJ Watt...
I've been thinking along the same lines, Hulamau, and that's one of the reasons I'm sort of ambivalent to losing Doom. I expect Wolfe to hit double digit sacks this season. To extend the Houston analogy, I doubt we will miss Doom any more than Houston's defense missed Mario Williams.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:43 AM   #83
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I'm not so sure about that. Walker had that innate ability to track long passes and somehow come down with them. I don't recall Marshall doing that as well, but my memory sucks, so you might be right.
I still remember that Cutler pass in his first start against the Cards. What a pass!!! Traveled like 65 yards in the air and came down perfectly between 2 defenders into Walkers hands without breaking stride. Awesome pass. Probably the best long ball and catch I have ever seen.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:44 AM   #84
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I'm not so sure about that. Walker had that innate ability to track long passes and somehow come down with them. I don't recall Marshall doing that as well, but my memory sucks, so you might be right.
I just remember BM going up and snagging some passes in heavy traffic a few times. Didn't he have an epic one against the Cowboys?
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:47 AM   #85
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I just remember BM going up and snagging some passes in heavy traffic a few times. Didn't he have an epic one against the Cowboys?
oh, totally...he was awesome at that. I meant those long arching passes where Walker could contort his body right to come down with them even if he was smothered. Boldin does that too.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:51 AM   #86
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I just remember BM going up and snagging some passes in heavy traffic a few times. Didn't he have an epic one against the Cowboys?
That was epic. But If I recall it's not a pass I would call a long ball. Think it was a 15, 20 yard high pass that he snagged and then field rapped the remaining 5-6 Cowboys in his path.

Another one that could really come down with the impossible long ball was Lelie. To bad he had to pout about Walker. We could have had a trio o Walker, Lelie and a rookie Marshall.

His pouting pretty much ended his career.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:06 AM   #87
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I've been thinking along the same lines, Hulamau, and that's one of the reasons I'm sort of ambivalent to losing Doom. I expect Wolfe to hit double digit sacks this season. To extend the Houston analogy, I doubt we will miss Doom any more than Houston's defense missed Mario Williams.
That's actually a great point. And Mario was considered a better player at the time than Doom is now. And then Houston let DeMeco Ryans go before this year and he was a huge contributor for them a couple of years ago, and they've made out fine defensively. Thanks, you've made me feel a little better!
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:23 AM   #88
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oh, totally...he was awesome at that. I meant those long arching passes where Walker could contort his body right to come down with them even if he was smothered. Boldin does that too.
Brandon Lloyd was awfully good at it.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:31 AM   #89
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Freeney is only 33. 2Two years ago, he was recording double-digit sacks. $6 million is probably CLOSE to what he's worth. Structure a cap-friendly deal, and get it done...
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:34 AM   #90
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Datone Jones, Damontre Moore, and Elvis Dumervil combine numbers. Elvis didn't do everything so we can compare the things they did.

Jones; 4.8 40, 29 225, 10 yard 1.63
Dumervil; 4.75 40 30 225, 10 yard 1.68
Moore; 4.95, 19 225, 10 yard 1.69

It would be nice to know the rest of Doom's numbers to compare. Now I know Moore is probably faster then his 40 time would suggest, you still have to worry about his overall strength though. Jones doesn't have the 3 cone speed as Moore (6.95 vs 7.32) but, his 20 yard shuttle was faster (4.32 vs 4.34).

I did find Dumervils pre-combine arm length and vert though. 32 inch arms and 27.5-inch vertical jump. Both Jones and Moore have longer arms (Jones 32 3/4) and higher verts then Doom.

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2013/...ing-report.htm
http://www.buffalobillsdraft.com/201...outing-report/
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:36 AM   #91
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Freeney is only 33. 2Two years ago, he was recording double-digit sacks. $6 million is probably CLOSE to what he's worth. Structure a cap-friendly deal, and get it done...
, you are joking. Denver only saved $7 million on the cap by cutting Doom and you want Freeney for $6 million?

Doom is not worth the $12 million he was being paid but he is very much worth the $7 million of cap space Denver saved by cutting him.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:38 AM   #92
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Freeney is only 33. 2Two years ago, he was recording double-digit sacks. $6 million is probably CLOSE to what he's worth. Structure a cap-friendly deal, and get it done...
Brilliant. Take a $5 million cap hit to get out of paying Doom $9. Then pay Freeney $6.

Freeney at anything above $3 is an epic fail.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:41 AM   #93
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The thing about doom is he has a low center of gravity which helps him get under an offensive lineman and dictate momentum. As we've all griped about, Doom should have got way, way more holding calls.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:44 AM   #94
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The thing about doom is he has a low center of gravity which helps him get under an offensive lineman and dictate momentum. As we've all griped about, Doom should have got way, way more holding calls.
100% agree with this. The fact that he was held and not called all the time was just another negative thing though.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:46 AM   #95
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Brandon Lloyd was awfully good at it.
Ooof...my bad. He def was. I guess the McD years are just slipping from my mind.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:49 AM   #96
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, you are joking. Denver only saved $7 million on the cap by cutting Doom and you want Freeney for $6 million?

Doom is not worth the $12 million he was being paid but he is very much worth the $7 million of cap space Denver saved by cutting him.
We painted ourselves into a corner here for sure, whoever's "fault" it was. At this point I would rather us just stick with status quo, move on to the draft and if a guy like Dansby is someone we can bring in...do that.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:52 AM   #97
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The thing about doom is he has a low center of gravity which helps him get under an offensive lineman and dictate momentum. As we've all griped about, Doom should have got way, way more holding calls.
Don't worry, I'm sure when we play Balt next, they will call it on Clady every down.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:55 AM   #98
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Don't worry, I'm sure when we play Balt next, they will call it on Clady every down.
Oh, this is a certainty.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:01 AM   #99
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No they didnt. Broncos offered 10 mil guaranteed and ravens offered 12. Ravens also gave a 3.5 million year two guarantee against injury.

This board is terrible for trashing players. We had Doom under contract. We cut him.

For the 5 mil in cap space we are eating and the 6 mil we apparantly offered him, we could have just kept him for 1 mil more under his old deal, and cut Joe Mays to get the Welker deal done and under the cap in time.

All I see is spin and how the Broncos are fine, Doom is a traitor, blah, blah, blah. If Elway ever wants you to drink some kool-aid before taking a ride on a comet, you would be pushing each other out of the way to be first in line.
I think Balt drank the Elway kool-aid because they agreed that Doom wasn't worth what Denver was going to paying. Also you are 100% wrong on who was going to pay him more.



I have the details to the five-year contract Elvis Dumervil signed with the Baltimore Ravens.

And upon closer inspection, Dumervil wasnít fibbing when he said it wasnít about the money.

Letís compare the Ravensí contract to the Broncos offer. first the Ravens:

2013: $1 million salary; $7.5 million signing bonus = $8.5 million (fully guaranteed)
2014: $1 million salary; $3.5 million option bonus (injury-only guarantee) = $4.5 million
2015: $4 million salary
2016: $4 million salary
2017: 5 million salary

Totals
1 year: $8.5 million
2 years: $13 million
3 years: $17 million
5 years: $26 million ($5.2 million/yr average)
Full guarantee: $8.5 million
Escalators: $8 million; incentives: $2 million

Broncos
2013: $5 million salary; $3 million signing bonus = $8 million (fully guaranteed)
2014: $5 million ($2 million fully guaranteed)
2015: $5 million

Totals
1 year: $8 million
2 years: $13 million
3 years: $18 million ($6 million/yr average)
Full guarantee; $10 million.
Escalators: $2 million

Conclusion:
Most agents and executives within the industry would say the Broncos offered a slightly better deal because they had more guaranteed money and a better three-year average. The escalators for both the Ravens and Broncos were built around a 12-sack season.

Moreover, donít forget the Broncos paid Dumervil $31.2 million the previous three years. And throughout the free-agent process, the Broncos had a better deal than the Ravens in year one and two. If it was about the money, Dumervil would signed back with the Broncos before Sunday.

This was not about the money. This was about a broken relationship between the Broncos and Dumervil, and the Ravens showering Dumervil with love.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/...-ravens/19017/
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:16 AM   #100
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This was not about the money. This was about a broken relationship between the Broncos and Dumervil, and the Ravens showering Dumervil with love.
Well, yes. Pride/ego probably a huge factor. "I'll show them for publicly demanding I take a pay cut." That and the lure of playing in a 3-4 and potentially putting up better numbers because of it.
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