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Old 03-21-2013, 02:49 PM   #401
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Great point. A 20 spot drop in a 32 team league isn't significant. Especially when there's really only one difference between the defensive starters in 2009 and the defensive starters in 2010.
Derp, derp. Elvis derp.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:51 PM   #402
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Of course it can imply causation. It doesn't prove it, but it sure can imply it.
Maybe. But in terms of mathematical logic, it doesn't.

That 2010 defense was pretty weaksauce with OR without Elvis. Look at his contract - he got a contract that resembled a franchise player on D. He's not.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:59 PM   #403
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Doom wouldn't get 17 sacks because there's someone else on the team gobbling up sacks too. The year he got 17 the next player had 5 sacks. 5 ****ing sacks.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:01 PM   #404
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Nobody is arguing that Elvis is worth $12M per year. But he is worth $8M per year, which is what the Broncos could get him for if they wanted.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:04 PM   #405
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Great point. A 20 spot drop in a 32 team league isn't significant. Especially when there's really only one difference between the defensive starters in 2009 and the defensive starters in 2010.
Wink Martindale disagrees that Elvis was the only difference.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:06 PM   #406
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Nobody is arguing that Elvis is worth $12M per year. But he is worth $8M per year, which is what the Broncos could get him for if they wanted.
Obviously, what was our offer again? What is Balts offer again?
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:11 PM   #407
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Nobody is arguing that Elvis is worth $12M per year. But he is worth $8M per year, which is what the Broncos could get him for if they wanted.
They did. And his agent ****ed it up.

Now he will lose money because of it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:27 PM   #408
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Maybe. But in terms of mathematical logic, it doesn't.

That 2010 defense was pretty weaksauce with OR without Elvis. Look at his contract - he got a contract that resembled a franchise player on D. He's not.
Since Doom was drafted, Broncos' average defensive rankings:

When Doom plays more than 80% of defensive snaps: 9.7

When Doom plays less than 80% of defensive snaps: 23.5
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:32 PM   #409
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AP carried the Vikings to the playoffs last year and I think if he was cut like Doom was this off-season teams would have been tripping all over themselves to land him.

The point here is most posters kept saying Doom was worth his contract and we are retarded to think he wouldn't get more then the others out there on the market. Now we are finding out is he might not even be worth the offer he was minutes away from getting. Why do you think that is? We have paid him a TON along with Champ and the team gain has been far less then what we have paid for don't you think?
So you are saying the defending MVP would get a bigger contract than a guy who has 11.5 sacks? I think you might be right about that, but then it proves my points, Peterson has won the exact same number of playoff games that Dumervil has, 1, he has played in 1 more playoff game than Dumervil has. So by your logic they should be worth the same since the teams they have played on have not been very good nor successful. But you just argued that Adrian Peterson would probably be a much hotter commodity on the free agent market.

Right now we are not finding out anything, you are making the assumption that the fact that he hasn't signed yet in what by all accounts have been the slowest free agency period on record is proof that he won't get a big contract.

By that account we have paid 120 million dollars for nothing last year, we didn't win and we had a cap hit of 120 million, that was wasted. In fact all the money we have paid since 1998 has been wasted completely. But I bet you that Bowlen has made more money from having a team and spending 100 million on salaries than if he didn't have a team.

What do you think a player is worth? Avril got 7.5 million per year, for a guy who in his best season had 11 sacks (the same incidentally that Dumervil had last year which was far from his best). Mario Williams got more than that even though he hasn't 11 sacks in a year in the last 4 seasons. Is 8 million too much for a guy who has more sacks than Avril and Williams?

Let us see how much he signs for and then evaluate how good or bad the 8 million dollar offer was.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:02 PM   #410
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^ AP carried his team, when has Doom ever done that? There lies the difference. Are the Vikings a playoff team without AP? Hell no. Are we a playoff team without Doom last year? I would bet yes we are.

Also Cliff Avril is only making 3.75 million dollars next season.

As part of his deal with the Seahawks, Avril received a $4.5 million signing bonus and has a $1.5 million base salary in 2013 that is fully guaranteed for a first-year cap hit of $3.75 million. That cap number currently places him outside of the Top 10 cap numbers on the 2013 Seahawks, where he's nestled in between right tackle Breno Giacomini ($4.25 million) and left guard Paul McQuistan ($3.375 million).

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...0631--nfl.html

Is Doom worth more then that? Yes he is. Is he worth 4.25 million dollars more then that a year? Meh, maybe. I bet you anything Avril is cut next year before this kicks in..

Avril is due a $7 million base salary in 2014, $5 million of which is currently guaranteed for injury only. On the fifth day of the 2014 waiver period, which begins the day after Super Bowl XLVIII, the $5 million in base salary will become fully guaranteed. Avril's cap number in 2014 is currently scheduled to be $9.25 million.

As for the Bills over paying for Williams that is their dumbass deal. Which is what Elway was trying to get rid of with Dooms big ass contract.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:09 PM   #411
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I can guarantee if Mario Williams was released he would get less money. Same with Jared Allen. Pretty much every DE. Today's NFL is different than just a few years ago. QB is the position to throw money at. And none of those DEs would have a chance at their huge contracts if an elite QB was on their team. If we had garbage at QB dumervil stays no problem. QB > DE every time.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:22 PM   #412
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Since Doom was drafted, Broncos' average defensive rankings:

When Doom plays more than 80% of defensive snaps: 9.7

When Doom plays less than 80% of defensive snaps: 23.5
When he was injured, he played less than 80% of snaps did he not? This is basically the same stat you produced earlier.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:24 PM   #413
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I can guarantee if Mario Williams was released he would get less money.
Same with Adrian Peterson
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:37 PM   #414
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Also Cliff Avril is only making 3.75 million dollars next season.
Come now. It's all about the guaranteed money, not about how a contract is structured for one year. Using this logic, Josh McD was a genius because he only paid Doom $630k in 2010 (while in reality signing him to a $60 plus million contract) And therefore almost every DE in the league should've been worth less than a million?

Cliff got $11 guaranteed over 2 years. At the end of negotiations, the Broncos were trying to get away with $8.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:42 PM   #415
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Come now. It's all about the guaranteed money, not about how a contract is structured for one year. Using this logic, Josh McD was a genius because he only paid Doom $630k in 2010 (while in reality signing him to a $60 plus million contract) And therefore almost every DE in the league should've been worth less than a million?

Cliff got $11 guaranteed over 2 years. At the end of negotiations, the Broncos were trying to get away with $8.
Where are you getting th $11 million guaranteed?

Quote:
Avril will receive a $4.5 million signing bonus
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post...es-flexibility
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:44 PM   #416
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Where are you getting th $11 million guaranteed?



http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post...es-flexibility
From the article someone else posted below.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...0631--nfl.html

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According to a source with knowledge of the contract details, Avril's deal in Seattle is actually worth $13 million, with $11 million in guaranteed money and a little over $2 million available in incentives and escalators.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:45 PM   #417
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Where are you getting th $11 million guaranteed?



http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post...es-flexibility
He is getting it from lala land. Cliff gets 11 million guaranteed if he is on the roster after a certain day just like Dooms contract.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #418
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He is getting it from lala land. Cliff gets 11 million guaranteed if he is on the roster after a certain day just like Dooms contract.
Maybe you'll want to read the articles you post from now on.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:49 PM   #419
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Klis:

@MikeKlis: Ravens have made offer to Elvis Dumervil. #Broncos offer still has more dollars in early part of deal. Details coming http://t.co/3H93t9hBcg
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:49 PM   #420
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Same with Adrian Peterson
Its a QB driven league.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:51 PM   #421
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@MikeKlis: Ravens have made offer to Elvis Dumervil. #Broncos offer still has more dollars in early part of deal. Details coming http://t.co/3H93t9hBcg
Ravens aren't going to offer more. They'll have even more problems with Flaccos contract down the road. Dumervil just needs to go away at this point.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:51 PM   #422
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Maybe you'll want to read the articles you post from now on.
Well, the articles are conflicted. According to the one I posted, the $4.5 million bonus is the only guaranteed money. Avril has base salaries of $1.5 million this season and $7 million next. The base salaries are not guaranteed. As per the article, they can release him next season to avoid the $7 million base with only a $2.25 million cap charge (half the prorated bonus).
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:54 PM   #423
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Klis:

@MikeKlis: Ravens have made offer to Elvis Dumervil. #Broncos offer still has more dollars in early part of deal. Details coming http://t.co/3H93t9hBcg
If true, now it comes down to ego. Denver offering more money, but probably for less than what he would have gotten if not for faxgate. Will he feel he needs to walk to prove a point?
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:54 PM   #424
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When he was injured, he played less than 80% of snaps did he not? This is basically the same stat you produced earlier.
Not really. That was over 2 seasons, this is over 7.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:56 PM   #425
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Come now. It's all about the guaranteed money, not about how a contract is structured for one year. Using this logic, Josh McD was a genius because he only paid Doom $630k in 2010 (while in reality signing him to a $60 plus million contract) And therefore almost every DE in the league should've been worth less than a million?

Cliff got $11 guaranteed over 2 years. At the end of negotiations, the Broncos were trying to get away with $8.

$6 million guaranteed (signing bonus + 2013 base)

Additional $5 million guarantees 1 day after SB (2014 base)
NLTBE Incentive: $700,000
2014 Sack Escalator: $700,000
6 plus 5 is 11.

Avril is due a $7 million base salary in 2014, $5 million of which is currently guaranteed for injury only. On the fifth day of the 2014 waiver period, which begins the day after Super Bowl XLVIII, the $5 million in base salary will become fully guaranteed. Avril's cap number in 2014 is currently scheduled to be $9.25 million.

If he is cut he doesn't get that money you tard.
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