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Old 03-13-2013, 08:12 PM   #1126
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I would love to have Stepfan on the Broncos.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:48 PM   #1127
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Med said it would be kind of a shocking selection. I think it is, but moreso because he has the same kind of RB in Vick Ballard. Seems a little redundant. I think for draft value its about right. I see Taylor in the 5th round range. Sure, he was highly productive in college, but his measureables make Alfred Morris look like Reggie Bush. He has some intangibles though, so we'll have to see how it all shakes out. Could turn out to be brilliant.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:57 PM   #1128
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F you Med, why couldn't you let the Broncos have Taylor? What kind of fan are you?
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:45 PM   #1129
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Stepfan Taylor plays a lot better than his 40 time.

This is the area in drafts when a lot of NFL teams find themselves a good RB.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:51 PM   #1130
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Stepfan Taylor plays a lot better than his 40 time.

This is the area in drafts when a lot of NFL teams find themselves a good RB.
Most refined back in the whole draft. We (Schaaf and myself (maybe just me)) were really hoping his 40 would drop him enough to be available for us in the 4th. Damn you Med!!!
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:20 PM   #1131
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That being said, we cannot trafe for actual players in the mock draft, but we can trade the rights to players drafted in the 2013 mock.

Just in case the Broncs wanted to make an offer for the rights to Stephan Taylor......
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:47 AM   #1132
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Really like the Bray selection. I have him as a Late 2nd-Mid 3rd round value. QBs have fallen like crazy in this draft. Doesn't immediately make the Ravens better, but gives insurance for Flacco both this season and in three years when his contract has to be readdressed. I like it.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:54 AM   #1133
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Good selections with Bostic, Taylor and Bray.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:09 AM   #1134
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Good selections with Bostic, Taylor and Bray.
Were any of those on the Texans' short list? Or is your guy still there?
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:15 AM   #1135
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BTW, I'm enjoying this. I've always graded the Broncomania one, and that required massive write-ups and summaries for each team. This is more enjoyable when it doesn't require 50 hours of work.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:20 AM   #1136
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Were any of those on the Texans' short list? Or is your guy still there?
You would have to ask 24champ. He is the man with the master plan. I am his consultant and will give him opinions on his guys or others when necessary. We still have a few more picks until we go. I was mainly hired on to make sure he spells the prospects names right. On his board he had Jawn Bawstick and Stafone Tyler for the two guys just taking. . .

These are players on my own board that I think are incredible value at this time. I didn't downgrade Taylor because he ran slow. He is as polished as any other back and is a Day 1 contributor. I don't know if Bostic will ever be a 3-down guy, but he can see playing time as a rookie no doubt. When I was with the Bengals, I had thought of drafting a back-up QB to Dalton at some point in time. Bray was one of the guys I was looking at very hard.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:10 AM   #1137
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You would have to ask 24champ. He is the man with the master plan. I am his consultant and will give him opinions on his guys or others when necessary. We still have a few more picks until we go. I was mainly hired on to make sure he spells the prospects names right. On his board he had Jawn Bawstick and Stafone Tyler for the two guys just taking. . .

These are players on my own board that I think are incredible value at this time. I didn't downgrade Taylor because he ran slow. He is as polished as any other back and is a Day 1 contributor. I don't know if Bostic will ever be a 3-down guy, but he can see playing time as a rookie no doubt. When I was with the Bengals, I had thought of drafting a back-up QB to Dalton at some point in time. Bray was one of the guys I was looking at very hard.

My issue with Taylor isn't so much he ran horrifically slow. It's that he's a terrible athlete all-around. His 3-cone and shuttle times were terrible. His broad and vertical were terrible. He's just a bad athlete, and most of those drills do translate to RB. He's a straight ahead, plodding, less athletic Shonn Greene with better hands.

Add to that the fact Stanford is a notoriously run-first program, they give their RB 30 carries a game. They are scheme designed as a power running team. Toby Gerhart went for 2000 yards in that scheme, and was a far superior prospect. He's been average when he's replaced Peterson in a similar pro scheme. I don't see anything remotely special about Taylor. We'll see where he's drafted, and we'll follow what he does in the NFL. I actually like Vick Ballard quite a bit more.

Bostic is easily one of the better LBs in this draft. He's good in space, athletic, and he has ball skills. No reason he's not a 3 down guy. He's the epitome of one. He's also tough, plays with excellent technique, and destroys people. He's a team leader, still chooses to play special teams, and has great character. He'll be rising up boards until the draft. Some scouts at his pro day, according to Rotoworld, have him rated ahead of Manti Te'o, which would put him in the late 1st, early 2nd round mix. I think he's more mid-late 2nd, but he's in that mix with Minter, Te'o, and Brown, though I have him behind that trio. And Ogletree as well, but not sure what his off the field issues will do to his stock yet.

Also, you guys are on the clock now, unless you've traded and it hasn't been updated.

And, I'll be happy to compare thoughts with you on the Bengals' remaining needs and selections. I have a general plan of attack with the last three selections. We can see if it matches up.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:15 AM   #1138
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I think Tyler Bray has a lot of talent and potential.

A little on the thin side, but he can still fill out as he gets a little older.

Tennessee was a mess, if he would have played for some of the other big name programs, I think he would be slated to go much higher than his current projection.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:16 AM   #1139
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Yep....I think Tyler Bray has a lot of talent and potential.

A little on the thin side, but he can still fill out as he gets a little older.

Tennessee was a mess, if he would have played for some other big name programs, I think he would be slated to go much higher than his current projection.
Well, he's put on 30lbs since the end of the season. He weighs 240-250 now. Not sure you can call that thin.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:24 AM   #1140
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Med said it would be kind of a shocking selection. I think it is, but moreso because he has the same kind of RB in Vick Ballard. Seems a little redundant. I think for draft value its about right. I see Taylor in the 5th round range. Sure, he was highly productive in college, but his measureables make Alfred Morris look like Reggie Bush. He has some intangibles though, so we'll have to see how it all shakes out. Could turn out to be brilliant.
I disagree with Ballard being the same Kind of RB as Taylor and that is WHY I drafted him. I also think he will be a late second early third for value MUG.

Now, I get to tell you why! He is the most complete RB in this draft and the Only red Flag he has is his speed. However, he reads things like a QB and he knows how to adjust like one in Pass Protection, Route selection, and setting up his blocks. His intelligence will make him successful in the NFL, even if he never leads the league in 40+ yard runs. I compare it to a LB who runs 4.7 but plays like he runs 4.5 because he diagnoses the play, reads his keys, and does not take poor angles or false steps.

Taylor knows how to get extra yards after contact, can burst through the hole as it opens, and more importantly is not a one dimensional Back like Ballard. Ballard is a runner and ok receiver, and not good in Pass PRO. He does not read the field like Taylor does presnap, he reacts post snap. INDY also had a way below average OL last year and Ballard was under 4 yards a carry filling in. Good Story, not the player Taylor brings to the team at all, despite their physical similarities.

Now, Grigson has replaced 3/5ths of the OL, Pagano has brought in Pep Hamilton to run the Offense, which will not be as vertical as Arians, and they will pound the rock in 2 TE sets with a lot more success than last year. Having a back like Taylor, allows them to be multi-dimensional formation wise from that personnel grouping. The can play 2 TE ACE, 2 TE diamond, or pure spread. It will create Matchup issues on every down, and that is the NFL way right now. With Fleenor and Allen at TE, Wayne and Hilton on the outside, and Taylor at RB teams will not know the % of run to pass and have to allow the offense the matchup advantage. The only huge factor will be down and distance and that gives INDY the ability to dictate with Luck calling the plays at the LOS, just like Peyton

Also, He knows the offense Hamilton runs and the verbiage which makes his transition that much more simple than your average rookie. He also knows Luck and Fleenor and they do not need time to get on the same page, they did for 3 years already! Really happy to have this kid, but I do Hope DEN gets him in the real draft, or else INDY wont be the easy out they were in the playoffs next year!
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:24 AM   #1141
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Well, he's put on 30lbs since the end of the season. He weighs 240-250 now. Not sure you can call that thin.
Actually, he put on 24 pounds to weigh in at 232 at the combine.

I'm referring to his playing career at Tennessee, where he looked thin....doesn't mean he still can't play, but his thin frame always stood out to me. If he put on 24 pounds, that means he played at 6'6 and 208 pounds, which is pretty damn thin.

I could care less about the 24 pounds he put on for the combine if he's unable to maintain it.

That said, I still really like him as a prospect.

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Old 03-14-2013, 12:32 PM   #1142
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I disagree with Ballard being the same Kind of RB as Taylor and that is WHY I drafted him. I also think he will be a late second early third for value MUG.

Now, I get to tell you why! He is the most complete RB in this draft and the Only red Flag he has is his speed. However, he reads things like a QB and he knows how to adjust like one in Pass Protection, Route selection, and setting up his blocks. His intelligence will make him successful in the NFL, even if he never leads the league in 40+ yard runs. I compare it to a LB who runs 4.7 but plays like he runs 4.5 because he diagnoses the play, reads his keys, and does not take poor angles or false steps.

Taylor knows how to get extra yards after contact, can burst through the hole as it opens, and more importantly is not a one dimensional Back like Ballard. Ballard is a runner and ok receiver, and not good in Pass PRO. He does not read the field like Taylor does presnap, he reacts post snap. INDY also had a way below average OL last year and Ballard was under 4 yards a carry filling in. Good Story, not the player Taylor brings to the team at all, despite their physical similarities.

Now, Grigson has replaced 3/5ths of the OL, Pagano has brought in Pep Hamilton to run the Offense, which will not be as vertical as Arians, and they will pound the rock in 2 TE sets with a lot more success than last year. Having a back like Taylor, allows them to be multi-dimensional formation wise from that personnel grouping. The can play 2 TE ACE, 2 TE diamond, or pure spread. It will create Matchup issues on every down, and that is the NFL way right now. With Fleenor and Allen at TE, Wayne and Hilton on the outside, and Taylor at RB teams will not know the % of run to pass and have to allow the offense the matchup advantage. The only huge factor will be down and distance and that gives INDY the ability to dictate with Luck calling the plays at the LOS, just like Peyton

Also, He knows the offense Hamilton runs and the verbiage which makes his transition that much more simple than your average rookie. He also knows Luck and Fleenor and they do not need time to get on the same page, they did for 3 years already! Really happy to have this kid, but I do Hope DEN gets him in the real draft, or else INDY wont be the easy out they were in the playoffs next year!
I appreciate that response and intelligent rebuttal.

You put excellent thought into it, but you see a different player than I do. I won't discount his intangibles, such as intelligence or scheme familiarity, but I don't think he's a good RB prospect. I think he was a product of the system in Stanford and projects as a better receiving, albeit less athletic, downhill Shonn Greene. Now, is a potential 850 yard, 3.7 YPC back solid value at the end of the 4th? Sure. So, for this game, you did fine in my book (Not that my book means a thing to anybody else). But I *don't* hope the Broncos draft him, and I don't think we will. He's not a John Fox type back, which is why we're all too happy to replace the plodding McGahee.

Your opinion is just as valid as mine though, probably moreso on this forum, and I've been wrong before on many things like everyone else, but we'll see on this. I'll be shocked if Taylor goes before the Late 4th at best, and I'll definitely have to give you props for seeing something I don't.

You and Rev gave me some heat for not having Brandon Thompson ranked highly last year for the draft, and that turned out okay. We'll see how this one goes. These types of evaluation conflicts make the actual draft infinitely more enjoyable for me. It's like fantasy football almost, seeing if the guys you like and don't like perform to your expectations. So, now I have Jon Bostic and Stepfan Taylor as focal points. Hopefully, I get some more.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:40 PM   #1143
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Actually, he put on 24 pounds to weigh in at 232 at the combine.

I'm referring to his playing career at Tennessee, where he looked thin....doesn't mean he still can't play, but his thin frame always stood out to me. If he put on 24 pounds, that means he played at 6'6 and 208 pounds, which is pretty damn thin.

I could care less about the 24 pounds he put on for the combine if he's unable to maintain it.

That said, I still really like him as a prospect.

I understood your concept. I was just informing that he has bulked up, and it's supposably good weight. He's a very young guy with a big frame, I think this weight is likely here to stay, thus making the "thin" concern obsolete. That was my only intention with the response.

I agree with both, that he looked somewhat thin while at Tennessee, and that he's a good prospect.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #1144
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I appreciate that response and intelligent rebuttal.

You put excellent thought into it, but you see a different player than I do. I won't discount his intangibles, such as intelligence or scheme familiarity, but I don't think he's a good RB prospect. I think he was a product of the system in Stanford and projects as a better receiving, albeit less athletic, downhill Shonn Greene. Now, is a potential 850 yard, 3.7 YPC back solid value at the end of the 4th? Sure. So, for this game, you did fine in my book (Not that my book means a thing to anybody else). But I *don't* hope the Broncos draft him, and I don't think we will. He's not a John Fox type back, which is why we're all too happy to replace the plodding McGahee.

Your opinion is just as valid as mine though, probably moreso on this forum, and I've been wrong before on many things like everyone else, but we'll see on this. I'll be shocked if Taylor goes before the Late 4th at best, and I'll definitely have to give you props for seeing something I don't.

You and Rev gave me some heat for not having Brandon Thompson ranked highly last year for the draft, and that turned out okay. We'll see how this one goes. These types of evaluation conflicts make the actual draft infinitely more enjoyable for me. It's like fantasy football almost, seeing if the guys you like and don't like perform to your expectations. So, now I have Jon Bostic and Stepfan Taylor as focal points. Hopefully, I get some more.
Stepfan might not be a "John Fox type" back, but he sure strikes me as an excellent PmfM type back. Watch him on blocking and screens. Plus, he hits the hole so fast, with such quickness and precision, that it could only enhance the play action. LBs would be forced to pause for that split second necessary to get Welker the quick shot.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:07 PM   #1145
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Stepfan might not be a "John Fox type" back, but he sure strikes me as an excellent PmfM type back. Watch him on blocking and screens. Plus, he hits the hole so fast, with such quickness and precision, that it could only enhance the play action. LBs would be forced to pause for that split second necessary to get Welker the quick shot.
I agree he's a good blocker and he does a nice job on screens. I completely disagree, after watching the USC game tape, that he's remotely quick to the hole though. He takes a bit to build up steam. He has two highlight type plays in this game, which was his best game of the season, including probably his best run this year, but 95% of the game was slow plodding.

I'm more concerned that Stanford's entire offensive plan focuses on the power running game. When the Broncos had their cut block scheme in effect, it was the same type of concept, which is why guys like Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary looked good running in it. I feel that is who Stepfan Taylor is. And, that's how good the Stanford rushing attack is. Look at Toby Gerhart. He was exponentially more talented and skilled than Taylor. He's just a guy in the NFL, and he's even still in a run first scheme.

Nobody seems to be considering Stanford's scheme and whether Taylor was a product of it in this evaluation. They are one of the few college teams to use a Fullback almost every snap. They also tend to use two tight ends to block. Along with use of the wildcast from time to time.

Anyway, USC game cut up for Taylor. Much better for evaluation than a highlight package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8jwc3NNSZ8
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:14 PM   #1146
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im with MUG... not a big fan of Taylor for Denver... I think he can be a good back in the league, i am just not actually expecting that to happen for him.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:47 PM   #1147
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I agree he's a good blocker and he does a nice job on screens. I completely disagree, after watching the USC game tape, that he's remotely quick to the hole though. He takes a bit to build up steam. He has two highlight type plays in this game, which was his best game of the season, including probably his best run this year, but 95% of the game was slow plodding.

I'm more concerned that Stanford's entire offensive plan focuses on the power running game. When the Broncos had their cut block scheme in effect, it was the same type of concept, which is why guys like Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary looked good running in it. I feel that is who Stepfan Taylor is. And, that's how good the Stanford rushing attack is. Look at Toby Gerhart. He was exponentially more talented and skilled than Taylor. He's just a guy in the NFL, and he's even still in a run first scheme.

Nobody seems to be considering Stanford's scheme and whether Taylor was a product of it in this evaluation. They are one of the few college teams to use a Fullback almost every snap. They also tend to use two tight ends to block. Along with use of the wildcast from time to time.

Anyway, USC game cut up for Taylor. Much better for evaluation than a highlight package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8jwc3NNSZ8
I think he's a little more tentative in that game because he was playing against one of the faster Ds in college. He still busted loose for a TD. Anyway, we're talking about a fourth round pick, not a first rounder. I just don't think any RB in this class is worth a 1st and really hope the Broncos don't spend their 1st on one. As a fourth rounder, I wouldn't expect Stepfan to be a top tier back right away, but he might get there. He's a hard worker and a dedicated guy. Great effort guy. Great lockerroom guy. He would serve Peyton's protection needs very well and he'd be reliable, dependable and sturdy in a backup role for KM (which we could really use).

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Old 03-14-2013, 04:13 PM   #1148
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I think he's a little more tentative in that game because he was playing against one of the faster Ds in college. He still busted loose for a TD. Anyway, we're talking about a fourth round pick, not a first rounder. I just don't think any RB in this class is worth a 1st and really hope the Broncos don't spend their 1st on one. As a fourth rounder, I wouldn't expect Stepfan to be a top tier back right away, but he might get there. He's a hard worker and a dedicated guy. Great effort guy. Great lockerroom guy. He would serve Peyton's protection needs very well and he'd be reliable, dependable and sturdy in a backup role for KM (which we could really use).

I agree. Mediator was suggesting a potential 2nd-3rd round draft value on him. That part I'm a little hesitant about. I think his value is late 4th-5th round area. It looks like his blocking ability is by far his best attribute. He looks pro-ready. I think that goes to Mediator's comments about his intelligence and intangibles. But I don't see a weapon at RB, just a try hard type. I think John Fox really prefers the weapon. All of the backs he has drafted back to DeShaun Foster had top-line speed. Even the backups like Mike Goodson.

I fully expect us to draft Eddie Lacy. I do think he's well worth a 1st Round pick. 4.4 speed, extremely agile and quick, strong, good blocker, violent runner. There's some Jonathan Stewart there, and Fox really liked him. He just has to get past Pittsburgh and Green Bay. Wouldn't surprise me if we trade up. It seems like there is Lacy and then every other RB in this draft. And he has the size/speed/durability that Fox gets a chubby for.
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:35 PM   #1149
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I agree. Mediator was suggesting a potential 2nd-3rd round draft value on him. That part I'm a little hesitant about. I think his value is late 4th-5th round area. It looks like his blocking ability is by far his best attribute. He looks pro-ready. I think that goes to Mediator's comments about his intelligence and intangibles. But I don't see a weapon at RB, just a try hard type. I think John Fox really prefers the weapon. All of the backs he has drafted back to DeShaun Foster had top-line speed. Even the backups like Mike Goodson.

I fully expect us to draft Eddie Lacy. I do think he's well worth a 1st Round pick. 4.4 speed, extremely agile and quick, strong, good blocker, violent runner. There's some Jonathan Stewart there, and Fox really liked him. He just has to get past Pittsburgh and Green Bay. Wouldn't surprise me if we trade up. It seems like there is Lacy and then every other RB in this draft. And he has the size/speed/durability that Fox gets a chubby for.
I would spit nails if we trade up in the first for a RB not named Terrell Davis. Given the crappy FA class (now that SJ is gone) I'd rather we stand pat and strengthen the D (especially the secondary) with that pick. I can't imagine they're going to keep Carter around. Then, pick up a RB in the third or fourth round. Which is why I think Stepfan would make a great pick. Actually, I'd feel fine with him in the third. Job one is protecting Peyton. Add in his ability on screens and his North/South style, and I still say he's made to order.
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:39 PM   #1150
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so are we paused?


and why did you go and take Kasa there, guy? Totally had my eyes on him in the early 5th. Nice pick.
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