The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-11-2013, 05:57 PM   #426
Ziggy
Pro Bowler
 
Ziggy's Avatar
 
Noob

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by winstoncup bronco View Post
This is another myth that gets perpetuated.
We were third in the league in run defense. THIRD. How bad and detrimental is Doom's run defense that we still finished top 3 in rush defense? And, we somehow managed to finish second overall in YPG defensively with this one trick, non run-stopping pony. What, we would have given up 30 rushing yards per game with anyone else?
Not really. If you didn't see it while watching the games with your own eyes, then at least take some stats into consideration.



1. Elvis Dumervil, Denver Broncos


2012 Cap Hit: $15.6m
2012 Performance Based Value: $1.6m
Value Differential: -$14.0m

In what will become a running theme for this list, itís not enough for an edge defender to just be a good pass rusher. This is especially true if he couples that with poor run defense and costly penalties. Dumervil mustered only 16 run stops on the season, and his 4.8 Run Stop Percentage was among the worst rates at his position. Throw in the eight times he was flagged, and you have the most overpaid edge defender in the league.

I realize that PFF isn't the golden standard, but in cases like this one, they mirror what we see on game days. I understand that you want use the team rushing statistics, but we're talking about Elvis alone. He's bad against the run, plain and simple.
Ziggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 05:59 PM   #427
broncosteven
Kranz Dictum
 
broncosteven's Avatar
 
Where is Amazon!

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tranquility Base
Posts: 34,707

Adopt-a-Bronco:
CJ Anderson!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderH8r View Post
What FA would make this worthwhile? Seriously curious.
I think I read here on the mane that PM was texting Freeney when he got released to come to Denver and play with him.

I bet they want Doom to restructure, cut him if he won't then replace him for a year or 2 with Freeney(sp?) and see if Wolfe doesn't develop into a sack artist at DE.

I doubt Freeny is going to come in below 6mil a year, if that is the case I would rather stay with Doom. I also doubt we could get another DE if we signed Freeney.

We really need to be worried about signing some DT's and LB's, not replacing dudes we have on the roster under contract.
broncosteven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:00 PM   #428
Broncojef
Ring of Famer
 
Broncojef's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Great White North
Posts: 3,248
Default

Big Al and DMac floated a rumor today (pure rumor) that Urlacher was coming to Dove Valley for visit.
Broncojef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:21 PM   #429
MagicHef
Ring of Famer
 
MagicHef's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,317

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
Not really. If you didn't see it while watching the games with your own eyes, then at least take some stats into consideration.



1. Elvis Dumervil, Denver Broncos


2012 Cap Hit: $15.6m
2012 Performance Based Value: $1.6m
Value Differential: -$14.0m

In what will become a running theme for this list, itís not enough for an edge defender to just be a good pass rusher. This is especially true if he couples that with poor run defense and costly penalties. Dumervil mustered only 16 run stops on the season, and his 4.8 Run Stop Percentage was among the worst rates at his position. Throw in the eight times he was flagged, and you have the most overpaid edge defender in the league.

I realize that PFF isn't the golden standard, but in cases like this one, they mirror what we see on game days. I understand that you want use the team rushing statistics, but we're talking about Elvis alone. He's bad against the run, plain and simple.
Ha, what?

11 sacks, 6 FF, 60 pressures, 16 run stops (more than Peppers, Abraham, or Charles Johnson) is only worth $1.6 million? That's not just dumb, that's moronic.
MagicHef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:24 PM   #430
winstoncup bronco
Crew Chief
 
winstoncup bronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NEW YORK CITY, USA
Posts: 5,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
Not really. If you didn't see it while watching the games with your own eyes, then at least take some stats into consideration.



1. Elvis Dumervil, Denver Broncos


2012 Cap Hit: $15.6m
2012 Performance Based Value: $1.6m
Value Differential: -$14.0m

In what will become a running theme for this list, itís not enough for an edge defender to just be a good pass rusher. This is especially true if he couples that with poor run defense and costly penalties. Dumervil mustered only 16 run stops on the season, and his 4.8 Run Stop Percentage was among the worst rates at his position. Throw in the eight times he was flagged, and you have the most overpaid edge defender in the league.

I realize that PFF isn't the golden standard, but in cases like this one, they mirror what we see on game days. I understand that you want use the team rushing statistics, but we're talking about Elvis alone. He's bad against the run, plain and simple.
And yet we were third overall in run defense last year. And won 13 games.

So now that we see how irrelevant those stats are, would we be any better or worse without Doom's 11 sacks, 60 QB pressures, and 6 forced fumbles, while being held most of the time?
winstoncup bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:30 PM   #431
winstoncup bronco
Crew Chief
 
winstoncup bronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NEW YORK CITY, USA
Posts: 5,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
Ha, what?

11 sacks, 6 FF, 60 pressures, 16 run stops (more than Peppers, Abraham, or Charles Johnson) is only worth $1.6 million? That's not just dumb, that's moronic.
I know, as if Doom's run D hurt the team more than his other numbers helped them.
winstoncup bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:42 PM   #432
broncosteven
Kranz Dictum
 
broncosteven's Avatar
 
Where is Amazon!

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tranquility Base
Posts: 34,707

Adopt-a-Bronco:
CJ Anderson!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncojef View Post
Big Al and DMac floated a rumor today (pure rumor) that Urlacher was coming to Dove Valley for visit.
Ugh...sadly he would be better than Mays and possibly Johnson and Irving...

NFL live was pimping Teo today, I think it is in ESPN's best interest for Teo to be drafted high. They need someone with a following to pimp now that Tebow's career is over.
broncosteven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:07 PM   #433
Lestat
Oreo Lucian Rockefeller
 
Lestat's Avatar
 
Say what again! I dare you!

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 9,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
Ha, what?

11 sacks, 6 FF, 60 pressures, 16 run stops (more than Peppers, Abraham, or Charles Johnson) is only worth $1.6 million? That's not just dumb, that's moronic.
only moronic? seriously.. only moronic?
the level of stupidity in claiming he's only worth 1.6 mil is truly worth being taken outside and shot for being that dumb. i mean how silly a statement can you make with a straight face when facts prove otherwise.
that is the kind of stupidity does the world a favor and doesn't breed.
Lestat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:21 PM   #434
theAPAOps5
A new beginning!
 
theAPAOps5's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 29,782

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Watermock - RIP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
Whether he's released early or late the guy is still going to get a contract that pays him 10+ million a year. Meanwhile the Broncos will be left without a serious bookend to complement Miller. Whatever cards the Broncos are holding, I don't think they are very good to be honest.
Yeah, sure, you bet......


Not really
theAPAOps5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #435
Agamemnon
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosteven View Post
Ugh...sadly he would be better than Mays and possibly Johnson and Irving...

NFL live was pimping Teo today, I think it is in ESPN's best interest for Teo to be drafted high. They need someone with a following to pimp now that Tebow's career is over.
Urlacher would be a great signing. He'd be what Brooking was for us last season x10. We'd still need someone to cover TE's though, because Urlacher can't really do that anymore.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:40 PM   #436
extralife
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
Urlacher would be a great signing. He'd be what Brooking was for us last season x10. We'd still need someone to cover TE's though, because Urlacher can't really do that anymore.
we would also need someone to tackle players and move with more than a three foot range
extralife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:47 PM   #437
Broncos4Life
Ring of Famer
 
Broncos4Life's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 1,793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extralife View Post
we would also need someone to tackle players and move with more than a three foot range
I see what you did there..... He'd still be the best MLB we've had since AL. Great instincts and a knack for making plays on the ball. Leadership. Vocal. Plus like Brooking, he knows where guys have to line up. Think about the accountability he'd hold guys too as well. IMO, he'd be "that piece" for the D. He wasn't healthy all last season. Word outa Chi-town, is he is looking great and is the healthiest hes been in a while.
Broncos4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:49 PM   #438
Bigdawg26
Ring of Famer
 
Bigdawg26's Avatar
 
Just let it happen!!

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,962

Adopt-a-Bronco:
TJ Ward!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosteven View Post
Ugh...sadly he would be better than Mays and possibly Johnson and Irving...

NFL live was pimping Teo today, I think it is in ESPN's best interest for Teo to be drafted high. They need someone with a following to pimp now that Tebow's career is over.
Yeah I saw that! I wonder if we are going to take the bait again!
Bigdawg26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:58 PM   #439
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 23,325

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

Elvis left a big dook in the building.
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 08:04 PM   #440
yerner
Ring of Famer
 
yerner's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Charlottesville VA
Posts: 3,936
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
Elvis left a big dook in the building.
Heard it throws better than Tebow.
yerner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 08:04 PM   #441
wolf754life
Anti Homer Board Director
 
wolf754life's Avatar
 
Sunshine and Rainbows Fanboys

Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Jack Del erious
Default

Heís been soft since the big contract. Now he has Von Miller catching double teams on the other side of the ball and his sack total drops nearly in half. He fades in big games. He jumps off sides in key moments and heís a problem off the field.

Good Bye. this team can use the money in better ways.
wolf754life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 08:09 PM   #442
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 23,325

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default



I watch these highlights of Von and I don't even begin to care that Dumervil is gone. Ayers/Jackson rotation at the very least and wouldn't be surprised if a free agent came here. Would prefer Osi. Not only that, but we can draft a legit guy and go from there and invest money in other resources.

Boomchickawowskissme.
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 09:12 PM   #443
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 8,763
Default

I can hardly wait for the next mediocre $3M 'value signing' the FO foists upon us.

If Dumervil goes, the Broncos soul goes with him.
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 09:47 PM   #444
SportinOne
Ring of Famer
 
SportinOne's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,794
Default

I can see being concerned with that kind of cap hit. Von Miller and Von Miller alone should command that type of money. With that said, if you are one of the people claiming that Dumervil is expendable, and that he didn't make a significant contribution, many times VITAL, to this team's defensive success, you're an idiot.

I agree that he is overpaid, but who cares? who on earth will they replace him with that won't result in a significant drop off in pressure on the QB? Sacking the QB and getting pressure isn't a one on one situation. This is pretty obvious. You take out a guy like Doom and the rest of the defensive line is going to struggle.

Is that really worth a few million dollars in savings? We have PFM, we should be spending as much as it takes to make this as successful of a team as we possibly can.
SportinOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 09:51 PM   #445
SportinOne
Ring of Famer
 
SportinOne's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,794
Default

Just a little enlightenment for those that missed this:

Basically, two articles explaining our pass rush scheme this past season and why the perception of Dumervil's actual production was skewed by traditional ways of assessment (including sack stats).

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...ush-repertoire

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...ective-in-2012
SportinOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 09:53 PM   #446
extralife
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SportinOne View Post
I can see being concerned with that kind of cap hit. Von Miller and Von Miller alone should command that type of money. With that said, if you are one of the people claiming that Dumervil is expendable, and that he didn't make a significant contribution, many times VITAL, to this team's defensive success, you're an idiot.

I agree that he is overpaid, but who cares? who on earth will they replace him with that won't result in a significant drop off in pressure on the QB? Sacking the QB and getting pressure isn't a one on one situation. This is pretty obvious. You take out a guy like Doom and the rest of the defensive line is going to struggle.

Is that really worth a few million dollars in savings? We have PFM, we should be spending as much as it takes to make this as successful of a team as we possibly can.
Don't you see? With that 8 million cap savings, we're going to get Revis, Freeney, Steven Jackson, Reggie Bush, and Ed Reed!@!!!!!111
extralife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 09:54 PM   #447
KCStud
Ring of Famer
 
KCStud's Avatar
 
AmeriStanzi!

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,726

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Love this. Now you guys will probably sign some old past-his-prime DE like Dwight Freeney.
KCStud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 10:20 PM   #448
Bacchus
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
The Broncos don't get better by cutting Dumervil. But they have no choice. That's why we're screwed, unless Dumervil agrees to a major paycut. Which he won't do.
What do you mean they do not have a choice. Denver was $15 million below the cap before releasing Hanie, Williams and Mays. They do not have to cut Doom. If they cut him and do not sign Revis then they needed not have to do it. Revis is the only guy out there Denver would have to cut Doom to sign, that is it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 10:29 PM   #449
SoCalBronco
Nixonite
 
SoCalBronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arcadia, CA
Posts: 35,573

Adopt-a-Bronco:
D.J. Williams
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
What do you mean they do not have a choice. Denver was $15 million below the cap before releasing Hanie, Williams and Mays. They do not have to cut Doom. If they cut him and do not sign Revis then they needed not have to do it. Revis is the only guy out there Denver would have to cut Doom to sign, that is it.
There is no need for Revis. Haven't we learned by now that you build the pass defense from the inside out? We can have 50 corners.....they won't hold up everytime for 5 seconds if there is no rush. We finally saw how the pass rush magically made everything better and now were going back to the old recipe which is not good. Denver has a veteran who had one awful game and two really nice youngsters at corner. We're fine. If you want to add another in the draft somewhere fine....but Revis creates over saturation of financial assets in one position...never a good thing when you have a finite cap...and a self imposed budget on top of it. Keep Doom....it's only one year where the hit is rough it goes down next year. They've been cheap asses for the vast majority of this century. I'm tired of it.
__________________


Go Canes!
SoCalBronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 10:33 PM   #450
Bacchus
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
The Broncos and Dumervil could resolve the issue if they met halfway. If Dumervil is unwilling to meet halfway, then it's a no go.

I computed the 2014 salary cap, and all the Broncos would have to do to stay under the cap (if Dumervil met them halfway), is cut Prater, while replacing him and guys like Matthew Willis, Lance Ball, and Robert Ayers in the draft (this year and next year).

It's workable...only a few million off. They really could work something out.

In my mind there's hope.
Ok so it is Doom's fault that the Broncos want to re-neg on the contract they both signed and it's his fault he won't accept a pay cut when there are going to be teams that will pay him more..... uh, I think not.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:15 AM.


Denver Broncos