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Old 03-07-2013, 01:32 PM   #26
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Beavis is having a hard week on the boards. Will his Orange Mane stock rebound like the stock market in the future? We will have to wait and see.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:40 PM   #27
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Beavis is having a hard week on the boards. Will his Orange Mane stock rebound like the stock market in the future? We will have to wait and see.
Oh he'll be back. It's cyclical. Besides, I trust the economic policies of that goll durn soshulist in the White House.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:50 PM   #28
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Yeah.

Funny how I recall your argument then was "there is no way a person back then would even have considered atheism and keeping god out of politics" or some such...interesting how the "pay attention to the times they lived in" had to work for religion and politics, but absolutely can't for gun control. Double standard much?
Wait, I thought you were the Constitutionally Purist Musketeer.

In any case, where's McGrube? I need a call on this flagrant projection.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:56 PM   #29
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Beavis is having a hard week on the boards. Will his Orange Mane stock rebound like the stock market in the future? We will have to wait and see.
Well we can't all be 100% dead wrong and then still highfive it like North is South.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:58 PM   #30
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Beavis is having a hard week on the boards. Will his Orange Mane stock rebound like the stock market in the future? We will have to wait and see.
He has yet to address the OP.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:05 PM   #31
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He has yet to address the OP.
I think I did. Steve Jobs should've made $350k a year. got it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:15 PM   #32
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Exactly. You've got guys like Romney who pay half the tax rate of an average citizen, and they've got the Tea Party dopes convinced that that's somehow fair, and those who attempt to change it are communist agents.
Flat tax of 18%.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:25 PM   #33
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A good TED talks on inequality.

The effects of wealth inequality don't just hurt the poor, it hurts the rich as well.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:37 PM   #34
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That TED piece is just mind-boggling. The United States is sitting on a ticking bomb and isn't even discussing it.

"If Americans want to live the American dream, they should move to Denmark."
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:45 PM   #35
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That TED piece is just mind-boggling. The United States is sitting on a ticking bomb and isn't even discussing it.

"If Americans want to live the American dream, they should move to Denmark."
Yup. A country that doesn't reward talent is at risk of becoming talentless.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:08 AM   #36
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Many on the Right refuse to believe that economic value systems are completely arbitrary. They think some "magic hand" is at work (which is probably why for many of them their religion is inexorably tangled up with their politics and their economics). The cost of labor is whatever employers can get away with. The price CEOs charge is whatever they can get away with from shareholders. It just depends on the system you set up, socially and economically. Does our society disapprove of blatant greed, say the way the Japanese do? No. Just the opposite. Do we respect the labor of our people? No. We consider them entirely expendable. Who are our heroes, those who do the labor or those who wear the gold that labor built?

We just have to decide which model we want to follow and what our future as a country will look like. Do we follow the Libertarian ideological model of survival of the fittest (or best connected, in reality) and go the route of feudalism, or do we do what is best to have an equitable (and sustainable) society for our children and grandchildren understanding that, as TR pointed out, "At every stage, and under all circumstances, the essence of the struggle is to equalize opportunity, destroy privilege, and give to the life and citizenship of every individual the highest possible value both to himself and to the commonwealth."

There is a reason why the biggest wars tend to bring about more equitable societies, as we saw in the U.S. in WWII. It's because everybody is under threat, even the capitalist, even the worker, and we come together. The workers need to put on helmets, grab their arms, and defend the land and the industry of the people. The capitalist must turn his industry to supplying the needs of war. Greed and war profiteering are vilified because they violate the necessary societal demands of war time sacrifice. They become taboo. It took more than thirty years and the advent of Reaganism for the Right to dismantle the equitability that came with that war. Somehow the Right ignores the obvious benefits that progressive system brought to our country. But instead of reality, they prefer ideology and when you peer through the eyeglass of ideology, you don't need facts.

I guess once you have (basically) mercenary forces fighting your wars, you don't have to sacrifice. We are in perpetual war and yet, if you are not personally involved, it means nothing to you. Sure, you gather around and listlessly wave the flag out of guilt, but the all for one, one for all thing can't survive in the outrageously inequitable system we have. In fact, the whole all for one, one for all thing becomes food for comedy, or irony. Hell, it doesn't even matter if the wars are just or unjust, right or wrong. It's like when the Russian soldiers returned from the front after WWI and saw that the party of the royals had never stopped. The immense suffering they went through had never penetrated the upper classes. So now the orgy of greed at the top need not suffer a hiatus due to societal pressures, but can go right on, war or peace. Hey, we celebrate their greed along with them, though the overwhelming majority of us can only stand in the snow and look through the windows at their party. Our leaders encourage us to do our part. "Go shopping," they say. War and greed can now walk hand in hand. Globalism is abundance. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Everything that happens is progress.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:45 AM   #37
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We just have to decide which model we want to follow and what our future as a country will look like. Do we follow the Libertarian ideological model of survival of the fittest (or best connected, in reality) and go the route of feudalism, or do we do what is best to have an equitable (and sustainable) society for our children and grandchildren understanding that, as TR pointed out, "At every stage, and under all circumstances, the essence of the struggle is to equalize opportunity, destroy privilege, and give to the life and citizenship of every individual the highest possible value both to himself and to the commonwealth."
Notice he said equalize opportunity, not outcome. As a nation you have to compete with the world on some level. You can erect barriers to everyone in order to try to double down on your unwillingness to compete, but in the end, the whole nation suffers as it's left behind in it's chosen dark age while the rest of the world surges ahead.

Like I said before, you can choose to sanction those who work under fundamentally different views of humanity (China). But if we choose, as a nation, to retire from the game instead of compete with the Japans or SKoreas or Taiwans or Germanys of the world, the only ones we're hurting in the long run is ourselves.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:06 AM   #38
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Bull****. The capitalists who control our government are doing more than anybody to support China (our number one ideological enemy) with our jobs, our markets and our technology. You think our massively subsidized corporate economy has anything whatsoever to do with "free trade?" Do you think the workers of America benefited from the migration of their jobs to Asia? Go to Camden, NJ or Detroit. The stock market just hit an all time high. You know who benefited?



That 80% who hold 5% of the financial wealth of this country are the wage and salary workers of America. You think this system is sustainable? The ****ing royalists of the 17th century would look on those pie charts with envy.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:10 AM   #39
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Notice he said equalize opportunity, not outcome. As a nation you have to compete with the world on some level. You can erect barriers to everyone in order to try to double down on your unwillingness to compete, but in the end, the whole nation suffers as it's left behind in it's chosen dark age while the rest of the world surges ahead.

Like I said before, you can choose to sanction those who work under fundamentally different views of humanity (China). But if we choose, as a nation, to retire from the game instead of compete with the Japans or SKoreas or Taiwans or Germanys of the world, the only ones we're hurting in the long run is ourselves.
It would be a lot easier to compete with China in the global economic market if we weren't outspending them 5:1 in defense. Everyone always likes to count us out vs. China when it comes to the economy, but it's because we're still stuck in our old, paranoid 1950's world views. China (nor any other superpower or nation who represents any legitimate military threat) has no interest in military conflict. In fact, it's contrary to their interests, because the market has become so globalized, that a market crash by either side would cripple both economies, not to mention both economies being destroyed in the first place because we buy so much from each other...that would end immediately, and the only thing propping either of us up would be the military economy, which would only last as long as our military resolve and natural resources would hold out.

The threat we face comes from rogue states, cells and individuals, and catching them requires precision and efficiency, not a huge standing army. Talk about attacking a problem with a meat cleaver instead of a scalpel... All of this can be done for much, much less than we currently spend on the military. Yes, this would destroy jobs. Jobs we would have to offset by rebuilding our infrastructure, which in and of itself is a huge contributor not only to supporting the economy, but to supporting a war effort if needed.

So slash the bejeezus out of the defense budget, shift the responsibility of "home defense" back to the states, where it was when this nation was founded, and rely on each state to raise and maintain militias (these would be your National Guard units) that can be called on in time of war. When Lincoln called for 75,000 volunteers in April 1861, there was a reason they reached half a million volunteers before even the first drafts were begun.

Now, what exactly do we do with $300 billion dollars? I dunno, but I'm sure we can find some way to help level the playing field. It's not a simple their labor force is bigger than ours situation...as I recall the Soviets had a lot of cheap labor and natural resources, as well.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:20 AM   #40
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It would be a lot easier to compete with China in the global economic market if we weren't outspending them 5:1 in defense.
Sorry that just doesn't make any sense. Our government doesn't compete with China. (in a meaningful sense) We do. $500 billion difference in defense spending would do nothing to turn the economic tide in any sense. What would you do with that money that would allow us to compete where we currently can't?

Besides, $150 billion bucks buys you a lot more Chinese soldiers than American ones. There's no conceivable way we could place our military funding on par.

It's a trade issue, not a federal funding issue.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:23 AM   #41
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Sorry that just doesn't make any sense. Our government doesn't compete with China. (in a meaningful sense) We do. $500 billion difference in defense spending would do nothing to turn the economic tide in any sense. What would you do with that money that would allow us to compete where we currently can't?

Besides, $150 billion bucks buys you a lot more Chinese soldiers than American ones. There's no conceivable way we could place our military funding on par.

It's a trade issue, not a federal funding issue.
you don't think repairing roads and bridges and improving mass transit would improve our economy?

So you're the guy.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:27 AM   #42
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China has the largest army in the world. In fact, China will match us in military spending in the next couple of decades.
http://www.economist.com/node/21552193

But they couldn't do that if we weren't helping to support their economy with our jobs and "most favored" access to our markets. Hell, for most Americans now, they can't buy anything that isn't Chinese. China is the pimp to our capitalist whores. Our corporatists play the short game for quick profit while China plays the long game of domination. The corporatists and capitalists rake in the yen for themselves while sending our country into deeper debt. Fortunately, when the **** hits the fan, we'll discover they've stashed the profit offshore and can make a hasty escape. We give China favored nation status and they're the biggest thieves in the world. What a ****ing joke.

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:46 AM   #43
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China has the largest army in the world. In fact, China will match us in military spending in the next couple of decades.
http://www.economist.com/node/21552193

But they couldn't do that if we weren't helping to support their economy with our jobs and "most favored" access to our markets. Hell, for most Americans now, they can't buy anything that isn't Chinese. China is the pimp to our capitalist whores. Our corporatists play the short game for quick profit while China plays the long game of domination. The corporatists and capitalists rake in the yen for themselves while sending our country into deeper debt. Fortunately, when the **** hits the fan, we'll discover they've stashed the profit offshore and can make a hasty escape. We give China favored nation status and they're the biggest thieves in the world. What a ****ing joke.
MFN for China was a travesty. That's almost the sum total of my economic trade criticism for the last 5 or so administrations. Maybe even goes back to Nixon.

But eventually their controlled economy will collapse back to reality. Our job is to keep our markets as free as possible in the meantime.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:48 AM   #44
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You know why they call the crash of '29 The Great Depression and they call the crash of '08 the Great Recession? Because the top ten percent has actually profited from the crash of '08. In '29, many at the top of the investment class were ruined along with everybody else. Not this time. If this one did affect the top ten percenters, it would be a "Depression" too.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:50 AM   #45
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MFN for China was a travesty. That's almost the sum total of my economic trade criticism for the last 5 or so administrations. Maybe even goes back to Nixon.

But eventually their controlled economy will collapse back to reality. Our job is to keep our markets as free as possible in the meantime.
Bull****. Our "job" is to do what's best for the greatest number of our people, like it says in the preamble.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:04 AM   #46
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Bull****. Our "job" is to do what's best for the greatest number of our people, like it says in the preamble.
Which is synonymous. 5 or 10 or 100 'experts' locked in a room planning things will never accomplish what the free market does. It ties into how people think humanity is getting smarter. It's not. In many ways we're less intelligent. We're just able to collectivize ideas like never before.

And that approach applies to our markets more than almost anything else (especially in an information age). It's not about picking the right experts to 'fix' things. It's about relying on 'experts' (in a control context) as rarely as possible.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:19 AM   #47
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Which is synonymous. 5 or 10 or 100 'experts' locked in a room planning things will never accomplish what the free market does. It ties into how people think humanity is getting smarter. It's not. In many ways we're less intelligent. We're just able to collectivize ideas like never before.

And that approach applies to our markets more than almost anything else (especially in an information age). It's not about picking the right experts to 'fix' things. It's about relying on 'experts' (in a control context) as rarely as possible.
Let me know when that "free" market you keep talking about is going to start.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:33 AM   #48
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Pension funds and the coming collapse...

Check out this terrific interview with Michael Hudson..

http://michael-hudson.com/2013/01/20...-stage-is-set/
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #49
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Pension funds and the coming collapse...

Check out this terrific interview with Michael Hudson..

http://michael-hudson.com/2013/01/20...-stage-is-set/
Key quote: "You can make money in financial transactions without any production." That is the tolling of the bell, right there. No labor, no products, no industry. And that, my friends, is not a "free" market. Who is one of the biggest facilitators of the financial pirates? Obama. What our government should be doing right now is grabbing the financial industry by the throat, throwing half of them in prison, and using the other half to shut down the casino while writing entire new regulations for the markets and banks. Unfortunately, government is on the take and works for the financial industry. So good luck.

Like he said, compared to what Marx envisioned and what is actually happening, Marx was an optimist.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #50
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Let me know when that "free" market you keep talking about is going to start.
Nothing's pure in politics. You only really get to choose which direction to to take your first steps.
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