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Old 03-05-2013, 11:30 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.
Maybe, maybe not. But I bet we will do a better job sealing his side of the field and setting the edge in the run game with a replacement.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:30 AM   #127
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You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.
I agree with that but the secondary play will be better. If Denver can do this with Doom and a 2nd and if they don't mind paying Revis $16 million a year than I would be fine with it. I'd hate to see Denver give up a 1st and Doom though.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:33 AM   #128
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Our pass rush sucked against all the top tier teams with Doom.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:34 AM   #129
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Way too much respect for Dumervil and the actual impact he has on opposing offenses IMHO. He is a pass rusher, but he is not anything else. And he is the second best Pass rusher on the team now, and the highest paid defender by a mile. He greatly benefits from Miller now, and he will degrade in effectiveness as soon as he no longer has the second best pass rusher in the league on his side.

He is not scheme friendly at all, and while his Pass rush is important to this team, his value in doing so anymore is negative to his cap hit. He is still a one trick pony, and there are a LOT of potential one trick ponies out there who would thrive with Miller occupying special attention in this scheme.

I like Dumervil, but DEN severely overpaid the guy and now they have a chance to do something about it.

Revis is a weird thing though. He just injured his best tool to cover and wants to get paid after missing most of the season. However, The Jets NEVER paid him market value and the GM on the street right now (Tannenbaum) screwed with him for years. He wants out of the Jets implosion, and who are no longer even remotely a contender, and would be pretty damn happy in DEN with his pal Bailey.

He could be a crucial piece to making this defense even more difficult to play against, as he presents unique problems for teams, that Dumervil does not. People also forget he plays the run really damn well, something Dumervil never has done. If you put revis on the top WR, Bailey can and will cover the TE matchup nightmare from the Slot, and Harris and Carter can still cover the #2 WR and #3WR with extra safety help. Bailey does not have to move to safety to cover the matchup TE's, he covered Gonzo and Gates back in the early days here in the red zone. You know back when DEN had the top TE defense in the league despite 2 all-pro TE's twice a year.

The one thing I do not want is to give up a second rounder in the deal. Hell, give up a fourth and third next year, this damn draft is way too deep to hand over a top 90 pick IMHO.

I hope they explore this, but they have to make it work for everybody to get it done.
aaaaannnnd scene
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:37 AM   #130
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You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.
You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:37 AM   #131
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Mediator is secretly Jack Del Rio.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:40 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.
That's why you get a vet pass rusher on top of drafting a guy who you think can be a future upgrade to Doom; it's pretty simple really. I don't think anyone is discounting Dooms pass rushing ability, but you have to concede he is not a complete player. That means he can be replaced, and possibly upgraded. If he can be replaced/upgraded, and you can add the best cover corner in the league you have a win-win. You secure the CB position for another 7 years, and you have the opportunity to build around the core players that you have. The future of the team would be Osweiler, Clady, Revis, and Miller instead of Osweiler, Clady, Miller, and . The core for the short term is Manning, Clady, Miller, and Bailey, but two of those key prices are over the age of 35. We addressed the future of the QB position last April, now it's time to look at the CB position, and take action.


Current age of core players: 37/22, 26, 23, 35/
Post trade: 22/37, 26, 23, 27/35


Do you see what I mean?
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:40 AM   #133
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You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?
Because everyone loves to make these vacuum arguments. You see, there can be no other factor at all in these things. Once you accept that, this will all make sense.

By many people's logic, if we trade player A for player B, regardless of their position...there is no other factor to think about.

Just like if we lose player A, we better draft player B and he better be just as good as player A or it's a failure.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:42 AM   #134
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Malik Jackson could rip off 2,000 in this system.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:43 AM   #135
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You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?
We don't draft at #2 this year, there's no Von in the late 1st.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:45 AM   #136
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If Elvis is the cornerstone of the trade from the Broncos end, then the compensation should be about even. I wouldn't expect the Broncos to tag a 1st on onto the trade because of the relative age, and production of both players. The only way this trade would piss me off is if the Broncos coincided a first round pick.

I think our front office will hold out for a second or third, and Elvis making this a good trade. Champ is 35, and in the twilight of his HOF career. He is the kind of player that comes around once every decade, and the Broncos have the opportunity to replace him with a similar generational player on a seven year lease if you assume Revis stays productive as long as Champ. You also put yourself in a situation where you have three of the best corners in league (Chris Harris is hands down the best nickle corner), along with arguably the best pass rusher in the league; that is legendary potential in today's pass happy NFL.

The challenge is replacing the production of Elvis Dumervile with either a veteran, or rookie DE. Given the Brincos defense last fall, you would need a guy who is quick off the edge in a wide 9 or 7 technique. This is where a guy like Cliff Avril, Osi Umenyiora, or Dwight Freeney come in. You also have the opportunity to upgrade the position by acquiring a guy like Michael Bennett who can stop the run, and generated 8 sacks last season. There are definitely short term options available, and some of them might come relatively cheap if the Broncos move early, because it looks like there is going to be a pretty substantial bidding war over Kruger to the tune of 9 million a season.

Then there is the draft, not just any draft either, a big ugly draft loaded with linemen. If my assumption in believing John can get away with only a second in compensation, the Broncos will have the ability to draft a young DE with pass rushing ability as a long term solution to losing Elvis. Couple this prospect with the plethora of aging pass rushers hitting the market this offseason (ie Osi & Freeney) who could be attained at reasonable contracts, and you lost little in letting Elvis go. That is why this trade makes sense, its a matter of forward thinking. You stack the defense for an abbreviated window, while still building for the future by acquiring players at key positions that are about to be voided on your team. John made it very clear when he selected Brock that he was not building this team in 4-5 year windows. That selection gave me the impression that he is thinking about how this team is going to look long term, and acquiring players for both the short and long term to keep it competitive. That is what this trade would indicate, and that's why I like it. I love Doom, but this trade makes too much sense to pass up.
We can sign Kruger for the price of DJ and Mays. I figure Revis is going to be getting what Doom is getting... so it could be a wash.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:46 AM   #137
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If this move happens we need to sign Woodson too
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:52 AM   #138
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We don't draft at #2 this year, there's no Von in the late 1st.
So in order to be worth it in terms of value as Rabb just mentioned. Does a rookie or FA need to get 11.5 sacks and match Dooms production? The extra blanket coverage will make lesser talented players better when they have 2-3 extra seconds to reach the QB.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:56 AM   #139
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You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?
All very high 1st round picks And Wolfe was a second. Se the drop off? Sure we can luck out with a DE in the 1st and 2nd round. But our previous history with the position shows us that is more miss than hit. Or don't you ?
remember all those 1st and 2nd round picks we wasted on the position with Shanny? Ohhh that's right you probably weren't watching Bronco football by then. Until Miked picked up Doom in the 4th in 06, you could have said he had whiffed on most of the draft picks he had spent on DE's.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:01 PM   #140
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Malik Jackson could rip off 2,000 in this system.
I still want to se them release Malik. Kid can ball, and I would love to see him play RDE in this system. He is a much better LDE, but hey we have this guy who got 6 sacks last year already playing there. If we lose Dumervils 12 sacks, do you think the 2 of them could each post 6 more next year to replace them? Nah, that's too complicated to understand.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:05 PM   #141
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I still want to se them release Malik. Kid can ball, and I would love to see him play RDE in this system. He is a much better LDE, but hey we have this guy who got 6 sacks last year already playing there. If we lose Dumervils 12 sacks, do you think the 2 of them could each post 6 more next year to replace them? Nah, that's too complicated to understand.
I hope Malik gets an opportunity to earn a lot of playing time this year on the squad! If the Broncos are entertaining the idea of shipping out Elvis, they MUST feel confident that Jackson/Ayers can replace his production or have someone like Wolfe in his second year to make the strides to improve upon his rookie season even more. Not to mention the possibility of another draft selection or FA. But no. . . it can't be done. /sarcasm.

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:09 PM   #142
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We can sign Kruger for the price of DJ and Mays. I figure Revis is going to be getting what Doom is getting... so it could be a wash.
I don't think the Broncos could afford to cut 13 and add 21 million in cap space. On top of that, I don't think Kruger is worth 9+ million a year. iWork's rather give 6-7 million a year to Michael Bennett for his 8 sacks, and complete play.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:15 PM   #143
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All very high 1st round picks And Wolfe was a second. Se the drop off? Sure we can luck out with a DE in the 1st and 2nd round. But our previous history with the position shows us that is more miss than hit. Or don't you ?
remember all those 1st and 2nd round picks we wasted on the position with Shanny? Ohhh that's right you probably weren't watching Bronco football by then. Until Miked picked up Doom in the 4th in 06, you could have said he had whiffed on most of the draft picks he had spent on DE's.
Pretty sure Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder (2007) were the turd****s we got in the year after we drafted Dumervil (2006). But yeah, we didn't do a good job of getting players to rush the passer. That means our scouting department sucked big time in their evaluations and we took bad players. What is even worse is that they are in the NFLl.

Meanwhile, LaMarr Woodley (2nd Round) -- Charles Johnson (4th Round) are still in the NFL having productive careers. (The two guys I loved -- I also loved Crowder too as a LDE. . .)

*sigh*
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #144
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All very high 1st round picks And Wolfe was a second. Se the drop off? Sure we can luck out with a DE in the 1st and 2nd round. But our previous history with the position shows us that is more miss than hit. Or don't you ?

remember all those 1st and 2nd round picks we wasted on the position with Shanny? Ohhh that's right you probably weren't watching Bronco football by then. Until Miked picked up Doom in the 4th in 06, you could have said he had whiffed on most of the draft picks he had spent on DE's.
Really, Shanahan drafted Pryce (hit) and Moss (miss) in the first round. In the second he drafted Tonovessi (miss), Monte Reagor (hit). Yeah, he just kept busting on ALL the DL picks he did in the first two rounds.

Oh yeah, I forgot Crowder in the second. So in 13 years he drafted 5 DL players int he first two rounds and hit on two of them. So spin away.

and how does his drafting correlate with Elway's drafting.

It seems to me Elway drafted Wolfe (hit) is batting 1000

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:20 PM   #145
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Pretty sure Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder (2007) were the turd****s we got in the year after we drafted Dumervil (2006). But yeah, we didn't do a good job of getting players to rush the passer. That means our scouting department sucked big time in their evaluations and we took bad players. What is even worse is that they are in the NFLl.

Meanwhile, LaMarr Woodley (2nd Round) -- Charles Johnson (4th Round) are still in the NFL having productive careers. (The two guys I loved -- I also loved Crowder too as a LDE. . .)

*sigh*
Yup... I actually liked Crowder too.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:21 PM   #146
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Obviously, the draft is a crap-shoot, but there this is a pretty decent draft for DE prospects that will be there in the 2nd round as well.

Okafor, Sam Montgomery, I really like the Gholston kid from MSU, Mingo (although I think he's gone way before the bottom of the 2nd round.)
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:29 PM   #147
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If Gholston actually stays dedicated to the game and puts in 100% effort like he SHOULD, he can be a game changer. Lets hope he doesn't end up like his dumb brother.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:33 PM   #148
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Really, Shanahan drafted Pryce (hit) and Moss (miss) in the first round. In the second he drafted Tonovessi (miss), Monte Reagor (hit). Yeah, he just kept busting on ALL the DL picks he did in the first two rounds.

Oh yeah, I forgot Crowder in the second. So in 13 years he drafted 5 DL players int he first two rounds and hit on two of them. So spin away.

and how does his drafting correlate with Elway's drafting.

It seems to me Elway drafted Wolfe (hit) is batting 1000
In what universe is Reagor a hit? He was a solid player. Nothing special.

So in his Bronco tenure of drafting (all rounds) he hit on 2 players that could do that job at a great level (pryce and doom). That just proves that elite talent doesn't come around very often. Take into account that I have now said all his picks spent on the position, only 2 of them have produced at elite lvl. 2 players picked almost 10 year apart. Spin away!
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:33 PM   #149
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You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?
He was saying at pick 28 or after wouldn't have the same impact(production) as doom this year. But Mark Anderson squashes that arguement
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:36 PM   #150
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It would have to include Dumervil. SF insiders seem to think the plethora of draft picks will not be challenged by another team. And Revis recently said he would love to play in SF with Harbaugh. Exit culliver. Enter Revis.
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