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Old 03-04-2013, 11:48 AM   #551
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I'm sorry your life is so frustrating that you attack my opinion on a Bronco forum. I'm pretty sure I've never talked with you on here, but the last few posts I've made, you've taken it personal for some very odd reason. First, was that Damontre Moore might go in the 2nd Round after his horrific Combine experience, which looks to be the general consensus opinion as of right now. You thought that was laughable to say.

Now, you think it's laughable that I (correctly) point out that no NFL team has ever taken a WR as small as Tavon Austin in the 1st Round. Well, that's true. And the reason why is durability concerns.

I understand you think the Big 12 defenses are representative of NFL defenses for prospective durability questions. What you probably do not understand is that Tavon Austin had 14 rushing attempts all season until his final 4 Senior games. The three years prior combined, his Freshman - Junior seasons, he had 37 total rushes. DeSean Jackson, whom came out as a Junior, had 24 total rushes his first three seasons. I wouldn't put a lot of stock into Austin's "extensive use" as a running back.

Now, you think it's laughable that I compare DeSean Jackson to Tavon Austin. Maybe you don't remember that draft clearly, but I do. A month before the draft, Jackson was locked in as a 1st Round option because of how explosive and dynamic he was as a receiver and returner. Sound familiar?

You also said that Jackson and Austin's "stats" weren't similar in college. Lets compare:

Jackson (Freshman) - 38 Rec, 601 Yds, 7 TDs, 8 Rushes, 48 Yds.
Austin (Freshman) - 15 Rec, 151 Yds, 1 TD, 6 Rushes, 47 Yds, 1 TD.

Jackson (Sophomore) - 59 Rec, 1060 Yds, 9 TDs, 5 Rushes, 19 Yds.
Austin (Sophomore) - 58 Rec, 787 Yds, 8 TDs, 15 Rushes, 159 Yds, 1 TD.

Jackson (Junior) - 65 Rec, 762 Yds, 6 TDs, 11 Rushes, 132 Yds, 1 TD
Austin (Junior) - 101 Rec, 1186 Yds, 8 TDs, 16 Rushes, 182 Yds, 1 TD.

Jackson's QB his Junior year being the immortal Nate Longshore in a run first offense where Justin Forsett alone got over 300 carries. Austin meanwhile, had Geno Smith in a pass first offense with 100 more passing attempts (542) to (443).

In terms of special teams, apparently, what DeSean was "known for", he never returned Kickoffs in college. He was a very good punt returner because of his shiftiness though, Sound familiar? Austin, meanwhile, was primarily a Kickoff Returner in college, and a really good one. He didn't handle a lot of punts. Jackson had 6 return TDs, Austin had 5, with an extra year.


Now as far as the body goes, Tavon Austin's body looks nothing like Percy Harvin's. Tavon Austin's game is also nothing like Percy Harvin's. For 95% of his collegiate career, Austin ran short routes and didn't run the ball. His YPR was around 11. Harvin in his two years at Florida, averaged 15, which was what DeSean Jackson averaged as well. That's a significant difference from Austin's slant, bubble, and screen routes. Harvin is a unique player, Tavon Austin is nothing like him. Harvin got his weight to 200 lbs his rookie year and could bench press over 400 lbs. He's also as chisled as they come. Even with all that, he's injured to some degree most of the time.

Austin's game best equates to how the Pats use Wes Welker and how the Rams use Amendola. That's why I discussed their body size and weight. Austin will need to add 10-15 lbs to hold up over the middle. And even at that weight, Welker and Amendola get knocked senseless every game. Austin is a slot WR. He's not an outside guy, he's not a part time RB, he's a slot WR only. And he'll be the smallest one I can ever remember in the NFL. For that reason, I think he'll go in the 2nd Round as teams will be afraid he'll be folded like a lawn chair when NFL defensive players (not the Big 12) hit him across the middle. Any one that plays this game that weighs 170 lbs is fragile. Not because they aren't tough. But because the laws of science dictate it.


That is why I have the opinion I have on Tavon Austin. And that's why he's likely to go in the 2nd Round. Could the Pats or 49ers take him at the end of the 1st? Sure. Do I care if they do or do not? No. I just stated why *I* think he'll go in the 2nd Round. You think he'll go in the 1st Round. I don't care. I'm not going to attack someone because they think he will. And, if I did, I'd do a lot more research than you did.
I think DeSean Jackson is a top 15 pick in a 2008 draft re-do. Maybe even top 10. You're comparing Austin to the top WR of the 2008 draft.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:49 AM   #552
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Frederick was a much better guard IMHO, and I can not see why people liked him at Center. Jones, well, he was an all american at 2 positions for a reason. Kid is nasty and smart as hell. 2 things absolutely required of an NFL OL. He actually played better as the games went along and made some adjustments personally and even in the Line calls that I saw. NFL ready and hopefully recovered from his injury. Love the kid though.
I agree with this. I think the only concern with Jones at this moment in time is if he'll be able to play effectively this year coming off the Lis Franc injury. That can take a year to heal. Being an O-line probably helps some because he's not running every snap, but the weight he has to carry probably counterbalances that benefit.

It might be a Josh Chapman type situation where the player could go in the 4th-5th round because he'll likely have to sit out the year. We'll see. Nothing is definitive yet in regards to that injury.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:52 AM   #553
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So last night I was going back and forth between Barrett Jones and Travis Frederick. I watched more tape, did more research, and I just felt like it was best to go with Frederick for the Cowboys. I know some have said that Barret Jones can play all of those positions he played at Bama, but I'm sure he will end up being a Center or Guard. It seems almost as if he was the guy that they could move around and somewhat "hide" on the O-line there because of the great players he had around him.

So by going with Frederick, I think he would be a good fit at Guard as well. I like his ability to get to the second wave and get a block on a LB.
I guess I'll have to wait it out and see what the right choice would have been.
That's what's so fun about doing these mock drafts... for the next few years, you and I will have a vested interest in which of these two is better.

For me, the main difference between Frederick and Jones (if you're looking for a center in this draft) is experience at the highest level of college football. 49 games started in the SEC trumps 28 games started in the Big Ten. Then again, the draft isn't about past performance so much as future potential, so we'll see....
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:57 AM   #554
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However, he's not used across the middle. He wasn't used across the middle at Cal either. When he does go across the middle, he gets killed, which is probably why they don't ask him to do that very often. Or maybe they do, and he just won't. That was an issue in his contract negotiation.

My point, though, was that Austin is a short range slot guy. Or at least, that's how he's been used so far, and it seems unlikely he'll be an outside WR in the NFL due to his height. He'll be used on lots of gadget stuff like the Chiefs did with McCluster, but to be an early round draft pick, he's going to have to make his living going across the middle. I'm skeptical that's going to end well. It can't all be bubble screens, pitches, and kick returns.

So, that's my thought process on him. Maybe it's wrong. Time will tell. He's explosive and should be an exciting player to watch, but I'm not taking someone that small that early in the draft. He's either too situational and not used in the slot, or he is used in the slot and becomes an injury risk.

For what it's worth, I have the Lions taking him towards the top of the 2nd Round in my mock. So, it's not like I'm saying he has no value. I'm just kind of combining why I would not draft him early at all, along with why I think it's unlikely he goes in the 1st Round in the real NFL draft.

Apparently Pricejj was offended by that opinion.
Personally, I think he could end up like TY Hilton did last year. Play all over the WR position at Z, X, and F. When he played F, he got over the top of the safety's with his tremendous long speed. People forget how successful he was in the Colts offense and he rarely started...

Hilton did drop the ball too much last year, but damn was he good in his first year. He led all rookies in DYAR and DVOA and only got 90 looks. He had 7 TD's and 2 of them were game winners. His 17.2 yards per catch was also 5th in the NFL of those who qualified. Used properly, he was a dangerous weapon and about the same as Austin just a bit bigger. However, he was drafted in the late 3rd round with the exact same skill set. Produced way better than the other WR's in his class though.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:59 AM   #555
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That's what's so fun about doing these mock drafts... for the next few years, you and I will have a vested interest in which of these two is better.

For me, the main difference between Frederick and Jones (if you're looking for a center in this draft) is experience at the highest level of college football. 49 games started in the SEC trumps 28 games started in the Big Ten. Then again, the draft isn't about past performance so much as future potential, so we'll see....
Yeah that will be fun to see how it all turns out for sure. And I definitely agree that the SEC is a better conference, but Wisconsin tends to put out pretty good O-lineman. Frederick is a Junior coming out, so I think he could have even had a better year and been a higher pick had he come out next year. He just stood out more on tape to me. It was a tough decision to make though.

I think it's crazy though how they went right after one another in our draft though. I do think that a team with a Center already could draft Frederick as a OG. Or a team without one could take him as a Center. Both look like they could go at either position.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:00 PM   #556
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I agree with this. I think the only concern with Jones at this moment in time is if he'll be able to play effectively this year coming off the Lis Franc injury. That can take a year to heal. Being an O-line probably helps some because he's not running every snap, but the weight he has to carry probably counterbalances that benefit.

It might be a Josh Chapman type situation where the player could go in the 4th-5th round because he'll likely have to sit out the year. We'll see. Nothing is definitive yet in regards to that injury.
I can not wait to have Chapman back and pair him with Jesse Williams whom I drafted. By by weak ass 3-4 front for the Colts!

I do not think Jones will fall that far though. 2cd and third round draft status due to injury with a 1-2cd round grade on tape.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:02 PM   #557
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Probably because you tried to trade me an imaginary 5th rounder that you didn't own....
Really.. I'm not sure if your just trying to have fun and joke around. But at no point did I try to give you a fake pick.

You pulled a Chicago Bears on Ozzie.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:04 PM   #558
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I think DeSean Jackson is a top 15 pick in a 2008 draft re-do. Maybe even top 10. You're comparing Austin to the top WR of the 2008 draft.
Ahh, see, I would differ with that opinion. Jackson is a one-dimensional deep threat in the NFL with plus return capabilities, but the Eagles have had to take him off returns due to durability concerns.

I would put Jackson's value in the 2nd Round for that type of player. Probably right around where he was drafted. I'm not ranking him against his fellow players in the 2008 draft, I'm just putting the value for that type of player where I perceive it to be, somewhere in the 2nd Round for an undersized pure deep threat with elite speed and return capabilities.

The main point of my comparison though is that Austin has a similar build to Jackson, as well as a similar skill set. The point of concern is that Jackson has always been a deep threat while Austin has always been more of a slot WR. In the NFL, Desean doesn't go over the middle. But, Austin will likely have to. I'm concerned Austin will get injured early and often.

The counteract is to train him as a deep threat ala Jackson. That's a particular skill set though, to run those routes and track the ball over your shoulder. That's something Austin hasn't been asked to do consistently. He's also extremely short for an outside WR option, so the catch box on those long passes will be very small.

So, my point is that they are similar players in terms of natural abilities and body style. They play differently though and have refined different skill sets over their collegiate careers. I'm not convinced the way Austin played in college will transfer to the NFL due to his body size. I knew Jackson's would transfer as a one dimensional deep threat.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:06 PM   #559
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I see a ton of good OL still available too. good depth in this draft for them i think at least.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:11 PM   #560
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Personally, I think he could end up like TY Hilton did last year. Play all over the WR position at Z, X, and F. When he played F, he got over the top of the safety's with his tremendous long speed. People forget how successful he was in the Colts offense and he rarely started...

Hilton did drop the ball too much last year, but damn was he good in his first year. He led all rookies in DYAR and DVOA and only got 90 looks. He had 7 TD's and 2 of them were game winners. His 17.2 yards per catch was also 5th in the NFL of those who qualified. Used properly, he was a dangerous weapon and about the same as Austin just a bit bigger. However, he was drafted in the late 3rd round with the exact same skill set. Produced way better than the other WR's in his class though.
Hilton looks good. He was a deep threat at FIU though, he reminds me a lot of DeSean Jackson too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was primarily a deep threat for the Colts with Wayne working the inside of the field. I'm just not convinced Austin is that type of player mainly because he wasn't used that way at WVU. If Austin is not an effective deep threat for whatever reason, maybe he's too short, maybe he tracks the ball poorly, whatever the hypothetical reason, what would his value then be? As the Colts GM, would you be comfortable using Hilton across the middle with frequency?
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:18 PM   #561
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Really.. I'm not sure if your just trying to have fun and joke around. But at no point did I try to give you a fake pick.

You pulled a Chicago Bears on Ozzie.
!

What player was it that all that draft hoopla occurred over in that failed trade? I remember what happened and what was alleged, I just don't remember who they compromised their integrity to draft.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:38 PM   #562
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!

What player was it that all that draft hoopla occurred over in that failed trade? I remember what happened and what was alleged, I just don't remember who they compromised their integrity to draft.
Jimmy Smith CB Colorado!

I would have had Minter in this case..
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:45 PM   #563
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Apparently Pricejj was offended by that opinion.
sure bro
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:47 PM   #564
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Hilton looks good. He was a deep threat at FIU though, he reminds me a lot of DeSean Jackson too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was primarily a deep threat for the Colts with Wayne working the inside of the field. I'm just not convinced Austin is that type of player mainly because he wasn't used that way at WVU. If Austin is not an effective deep threat for whatever reason, maybe he's too short, maybe he tracks the ball poorly, whatever the hypothetical reason, what would his value then be? As the Colts GM, would you be comfortable using Hilton across the middle with frequency?
No, he actually ran a full route tree from all three positions at WR. He did make some short over the middle catches, and one huge YAC play from a five yard crossing pattern. He actually struggled with the intermediate ball and dropped 6 15+ out, dig, and post passes, including 2 more TD's. Kid is a legit route runner and he does run more than a few clearing routes.

What hurt other teams this year, and I am sure they will correct, is safeties cheating on Reggie Wayne and then Hilton blew by them with pure speed, not even a double move. If they include a double move package for him next year, and Luck gets protected, he will put up Mike Wallace type numbers IMHO.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:57 PM   #565
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Glad my Tavon Austin pick caused such an hot debate, I think he will undoubtly be a top 25 pick, he is too explosive and in today's game a great weapon for offenses that need more firepower. I would have liked to go OL but Tavon was the biggest impact guy at that spot for the Bears.

Now on my next pick, I was pissed Minter was snagged right before my pick, so I took BPA and went after Johnthan Banks,CB Miss St. With the packers and Lions you can never have enough solid CB depth.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:01 PM   #566
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I was hoping banks might magically drop to 60! ahhh! great pick sodak.. banks may move to safety which would have worked for atl too!
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #567
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i was shocked that Minter was still available considering that in the real draft he is probably going early 2nd at the latest and will most likely go before Manti
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #568
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Glad my Tavon Austin pick caused such an hot debate, I think he will undoubtly be a top 25 pick, he is too explosive and in today's game a great weapon for offenses that need more firepower. I would have liked to go OL but Tavon was the biggest impact guy at that spot for the Bears.

Now on my next pick, I was pissed Minter was snagged right before my pick, so I took BPA and went after Johnthan Banks,CB Miss St. With the packers and Lions you can never have enough solid CB depth.
If CHI was still running the Lovie Cover 2, Banks would be a tremendous pick!

I am not sure what Trestman will run yet, but Mel Tucker is from the JAX school of Del Rio and likes to play a lot more Man coverage than CHI ever did. If they take Banks though, IMHO, they have to stick with the cover 2 and not expose probowlers Tillman and Jennings, plus now Banks to the Speed at Wideout in that division. The more I see it, tucker is going to have to change to the personnel here, rather than run his previous scheme.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:16 PM   #569
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Glad my Tavon Austin pick caused such an hot debate, I think he will undoubtly be a top 25 pick, he is too explosive and in today's game a great weapon for offenses that need more firepower. I would have liked to go OL but Tavon was the biggest impact guy at that spot for the Bears.

Now on my next pick, I was pissed Minter was snagged right before my pick, so I took BPA and went after Johnthan Banks,CB Miss St. With the packers and Lions you can never have enough solid CB depth.
Bears MLB will need more speed than Minter can provide, anyway
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:25 PM   #570
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Bears MLB will need more speed than Minter can provide, anyway
i don't know about that. they've been getting by fine with old man Urlacher who lately makes Keith Brooking look like a burner.

also the 40 time is way too over analyzed. his game film shows good talent and great tackling ability.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:29 PM   #571
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i don't know about that. they've been getting by fine with old man Urlacher who lately makes Keith Brooking look like a burner.

also the 40 time is way too over analyzed. his game film shows good talent and great tackling ability.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:59 PM   #572
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I wonder how Banks will fit in with CHI. Needs to play zone.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:14 PM   #573
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Maybe they would play him at Safety. Chris Conte isn't exactly ideal, and Banks is pretty physical in his own right.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:27 PM   #574
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In an odd twist of fate, about an hour after the Tavon Austin debate, Rotoworld put up this blurb about Austin:

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An anonymous scout said he graded West Virginia WR Tavon Austin as a second-round pick."Hes kind of like DeSean Jackson. The difference is they use DeSean deep," the scout said. "With this kid, they throw him short stuff and let him go. Again, hes perfect as a slot guy to get away from press (coverage). Hell probably go first round, but in my opinion, hes a second-round pick." Mar 4 - 2:55 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/cfb/131020/tavon-austin


That's almost verbatim of what I said. I could do that guy's job!
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:44 PM   #575
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Hasn't Washingon been waiting long enough to pick?
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