Home defense firearm tips from Joe Biden, head of Obama's gun safety task force

[cutthemdown]

Colo is a sportsman state I am surprised the politicians can do this without problems. I guess too many liberals from CAlif living there now?

[spdirty]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Colo is a sportsman state I am surprised the politicians can do this without problems. I guess too many liberals from CAlif living there now?

Democrats are Democrats and they control all 3 houses here. Why would this be a surprise?

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Colo is a sportsman state I am surprised the politicians can do this without problems. I guess too many liberals from CAlif living there now?

Yes and illegals are flocking in because the democrats are catering to them. East coast invasion has been happening for decades.

Honestly it's becoming rare to even meet fellow natives anymore.

[errand]

Originally Posted by houghtam

Exactly. Which is why training from 30 years ago is even less relevant than video game playing from 20 years ago.

again you don't know what you're talking about..... when a mistake can cost you your life you take the training much more serious and you keep on training as long as you believe you might need those skills to survive in this world. I still train that way..... I never joke when it comes to using my weapons. I treat every gun as if it is a loaded gun. is a culture a liberal like you could never understand.

I go to the gun range to work on my accuracy.... I've played paintball to work on my tactics, cover, concealment and stealth..... my friends and I even went to a little live fire night zombie (pop up targets) shoot.

again what you don't realize is the mentality of people like myself we take our guns and our training very serious because we know we cannot hit the reset button if we screw up...... I guarantee you we take it a lot more serious than you do playing video games

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by errand

again you don't know what you're talking about..... when a mistake can cost you your life you take the training much more serious and you keep on training as long as you believe you might need those skills to survive in this world. I still train that way..... I never joke when it comes to using my weapons. I treat every gun as if it is a loaded gun. is a culture a liberal like you could never understand.

I go to the gun range to work on my accuracy.... I've played paintball to work on my tactics, cover, concealment and stealth..... my friends and I even went to a little live fire night zombie (pop up targets) shoot.

again what you don't realize is the mentality of people like myself we take our guns and our training very serious because we know we cannot hit the reset button if we screw up...... I guarantee you we take it a lot more serious than you do playing video games

Sure, chum.

You're right, I'm wrong.

You would go to a midnight show, which you were excited to see (who goes to a midnight show just for ****s, right?), but you would only pay just enough attention to the movie so that just in case a guy with a gun came in you could allow your 30 year old combat training to take over, the training which you've provided yourself in the intervening 30 years has not only provided you with the ability to aim at a target, washed out by the light of a movie screen in a nearly pitch black room, that is firing at you while your eyes and sinuses are out of commission due to tear gas. Meanwhile, your 30 year old training (and paintball!) would also keep you from accidentally shooting one of the many panicking people moving across your line of vision, and you would take out a shooter who has you outgunned.

You're absolutely right. You're so awesome. How much do you charge for private security? The secret service could use someone as vigilant, skillful and just all around awesome as you are.

What a fool.

[spdirty]

Originally Posted by houghtam

Sure, chum.

You're right, I'm wrong.

You would go to a midnight show, which you were excited to see (who goes to a midnight show just for ****s, right?), but you would only pay just enough attention to the movie so that just in case a guy with a gun came in you could allow your 30 year old combat training to take over, the training which you've provided yourself in the intervening 30 years has not only provided you with the ability to aim at a target, washed out by the light of a movie screen in a nearly pitch black room, that is firing at you while your eyes and sinuses are out of commission due to tear gas. Meanwhile, your 30 year old training (and paintball!) would also keep you from accidentally shooting one of the many panicking people moving across your line of vision, and you would take out a shooter who has you outgunned.

You're absolutely right. You're so awesome. How much do you charge for private security? The secret service could use someone as vigilant, skillful and just all around awesome as you are.

What a fool.

If I'm in that theater at that time, I'd much rather be in it with errand, who's packin and has 30 year old training experience. Even if errand is full of **** in regards to his experience, if he is a good guy and he is packin I like my chances relying on him more than running out of the theater unarmed with no way to protect myself and no one there to help me, running out of there hoping Holmes doesn't target me and pull the trigger.

Even if he doesn't stop the guy, the odds are a bit more favorable for the victims and potential victims. It gives them a chance.

Let me ask you this hypothetical. Say you are forced to go into a situation like the theater massacre. You are gonna be there, there's no way of getting out of that situation. Are you going to go into that situation like a sheep being led to slaughter, unarmed, hoping you somehow get out of there alive? Or are you going to arm yourself, giving yourself a chance to get yourself and others out of that situation alive? Even if the odds aren't in your favor, with the teargas and bulletproof vest, and mass confusion going on?

[ZONA]

Originally Posted by Pony Boy

I would say if I was breaking into a home and the owner comes out on the porch and fires both barrels of a double barrel shotgun into the air. I would feel better knowing they are now holding an empty shotgun.

Very clever. Until you go around the corner thinking he's empty and he pumps it once and blows you away. Then not so clever. lol

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by spdirty

If I'm in that theater at that time, I'd much rather be in it with errand, who's packin and has 30 year old training experience. Even if errand is full of **** in regards to his experience, if he is a good guy and he is packin I like my chances relying on him more than running out of the theater unarmed with no way to protect myself and no one there to help me, running out of there hoping Holmes doesn't target me and pull the trigger.

Even if he doesn't stop the guy, the odds are a bit more favorable for the victims and potential victims. It gives them a chance.

Let me ask you this hypothetical. Say you are forced to go into a situation like the theater massacre. You are gonna be there, there's no way of getting out of that situation. Are you going to go into that situation like a sheep being led to slaughter, unarmed, hoping you somehow get out of there alive? Or are you going to arm yourself, giving yourself a chance to get yourself and others out of that situation alive? Even if the odds aren't in your favor, with the teargas and bulletproof vest, and mass confusion going on?

It's an unfair question, because we all know what did happen that night. Nobody, not even you heroic CCL holders, goes into a midnight showing expecting What we don't know (regardless of how much training you've had, and how recently) is that it definitely would have resulted in fewer deaths. This isn't a zero sum situation like with a jetliner where the pilot has died. If the plane crashes, they all die, but the scrappy Korean War vet lands the plane and saves them all. You could certainly have fewer casualties, given the right conditions, but given conditions are rarely "right" in the real world, you could certainly have more casualties, as well. Ex-military should know this...it's why we have rules of engagement. Sure, someone could potentially survive the first salvo, return fire and drop the guy, but given the events, we know several things that have been touched on:

- Many people reported thinking it was part of the movie at first
- The shooter used tear gas
- The shooter wore body armor

(IMO right there he's got you, to be honest...anything coming after this is assuming you recognize the threat before the average person at a midnight Batman showing did)

- The shooter started at the back of the auditorium, then down the aisles, aiming for people running or standing, not cowering
- The shooter has the benefit of a giant flashlight at his back
- The person returning fire has the disadvantage of shooting at a washed out target (in addition to tear gas and/or smoke)
- The shooter's weapons are unholstered and firing, the person returning fire is reclined in his seat with his weapon secure

So to answer your question, no. I would not want errand (or any other person) with a concealed weapon in that theater, not because I don't believe they could hit a target, but because I don't believe they could do so, with the conditions being what they were, and not add to the body count. If the shooter misses, he may accidentally hit a bystander, which adds to the body count. If the person returning fire misses, they are adding to it as well.

And that's the problem with leaning on the 2nd Amendment when it comes to things like CCL laws. Would pro-CCL people be willing to discuss the futility of such laws if the headlines had read "80 Dead or Injured in Aurora Theater Shooting as Gunman and Patron Exchange Fire?" No. Ohhhhhh hell no. That person obviously must not have paid attention during training, or they did something wrong to affect the outcome, but regardless, no person who follows CCL training would allow that to happen. It's the No True Scotsman argument played out in real time. People want to live in a society free to tote a gun like it's no big deal, with the (inflated) opinion that they can take down any perp that gets in their way, but apparently have no concept that there are other people around not named "shooter". Where does my right not to get hit in your crossfire begin and your right to wield a weapon in public end?

More guns does not equal less crime.

[Pony Boy]

Originally Posted by ZONA

Very clever. Until you go around the corner thinking he's empty and he pumps it once and blows you away. Then not so clever. lol

Please tell me how you pump a double barrel shotgun?

[errand]

Originally Posted by houghtam

- Many people reported thinking it was part of the movie at first

I've seen hundreds of movies....I almost always sit at the top in the very last row and other than the Rocky Horror Picture Show I've yet to see any staged event by the theater or production company that accompanied the movie EVER!......so I would have known that it was not a part of the movie


- The shooter used tear gas

He tossed the tear gas grenade, however there are several seconds before the auditorium would have been filled with the gas as there's a small "pop" which happens when you pull pin and toss......again I would have known it was a smoke or tear gas grenade which means a threat.....after 9/11 Anthrax scare why would anyone think otherwise is my question


- The shooter wore body armor

this would have been his saving grace from a well aimed shot to his torso. But not his arms, legs, groin or head....not to mention if your claim that I'd be cowering in fear if someone opened fire on me...what makes you think he wouldn't have beat feet when someone else opened fire on him?

(IMO right there he's got you, to be honest...anything coming after this is assuming you recognize the threat before the average person at a midnight Batman showing did)

YOU assume that nobody would've been able to recognize the threat because nobody there in attendance did.....I don't live in Aurora....I would have noticed him exiting and then re-entering dressed differently, carrying weapons.....I would have had my gun in my hand the second I noticed him holding a weapon, ready to respond.

again, the first clue was him coming back in from the exit dressed differently (he had exited theater and left door ajar to access his way back in after he gathered up his guns etc)......that alone would have drawn my attention to him ....you also left out that he also fired a shot into the ceiling (after throwing the grenade) before he started the massacre.....that's several seconds of time...and all the time a well trained, armed law abiding citizen needs to make a difference.

I can say with all honestly he would have been shot by me as soon as he threw the gas grenade.....and even if that did take me by surprise, he would have been fired upon by me after he fired his "warning" shot into the ceiling.

- The shooter started at the back of the auditorium, then down the aisles, aiming for people running or standing, not cowering

Gunman started at the front of the theater, with the screen to his back, and was wearing a gas mask.....to protect himself from the tear gas he had. You ever tried to shoot accurately with a gas mask on? I have.....again, my former USMC training and I'll tell you his sight is hindered just as much

It's not an easy task as condensation can build up on the eye lens. . In fact his death toll was actually pretty low considering he was shooting fish in a barrel which explains why he wounded more than he killed despite all those advantages you claim he had.

Bottom line is the only true advantage he had was that he was the only one that was armed in that theater. Which also brings to question why he chose that theater instead of others showing the same movie closer to his home....perhaps the fact it is the only one that didn't allow CCL?


- The shooter has the benefit of a giant flashlight at his back

And I would have had the benefit of his silhouette against the big screen.....making it look just like those targets you think are a waste of time as he would have shot those directly in front of him


- The person returning fire has the disadvantage of shooting at a washed out target (in addition to tear gas and/or smoke)

He would have been easy to spot prior to the tear gas getting to where I usually sit in a theater...because like I've said, coming in through the exit is the first clue that something is up....as nobody would have been running towards him....they would have been running away from him and probably ducking as they did. And at the typical distance of say 100 ft from a vantage point above him.....well let's just say I've hit smaller targets at greater distances with my .380


- The shooter's weapons are unholstered and firing, the person returning fire is reclined in his seat with his weapon secure

It doesn't take but a millisecond to unholster my gun, and start shooting.

So to answer your question, no. I would not want errand (or any other person) with a concealed weapon in that theater, not because I don't believe they could hit a target, but because I don't believe they could do so, with the conditions being what they were, and not add to the body count. If the shooter misses, he may accidentally hit a bystander, which adds to the body count. If the person returning fire misses, they are adding to it as well.

Again, those of us who train and go to the range all the time to hone our skills of shooting our guns are a different breed from those who just buy a gun and never fire it until they get attacked...but feel free to think otherwise. You underestimate people like myself who refuse to become someone's notch on their gun barrel

And that's the problem with leaning on the 2nd Amendment when it comes to things like CCL laws. Would pro-CCL people be willing to discuss the futility of such laws if the headlines had read "80 Dead or Injured in Aurora Theater Shooting as Gunman and Patron Exchange Fire?" No. Ohhhhhh hell no.

So pray tell when has the death toll or injuries piled up when shootings are stopped by law abiding citizens? Again, the average number of deaths is 2.7 when law abiding citizen stops killing spree.....when police arrive to stop the carnage, it's 14.3

How about you liberals wouldn't want to discuss the headlines saying "Gunman shot before he could kill movie patrons" ?

Care to discuss that?

In bold

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by errand

In bold

The very back row was the first place the shooter aimed.

I'm done. Yep, like I said. You win. You clearly never let your guard down and have amazing situational awareness. I honestly can't imagine what it must be like to be watching a movie and not be able to relax because you're on the constant lookout for threats.

And I wonder why only a few people noticed him exit then re-enter. It might have been because they were paying attention to the movie they paid $10 for.

Oh well, like I said, you're absolutely right. I hope you rent yourself out as security. Anyone would be lucky to have a top shot like you at their side.

Hey you ever seen that show? Top Shot? Those guys are pretty good. You should try out I bet you could beat them.

[errand]

Originally Posted by houghtam

The very back row was the first place the shooter aimed.

He fired a shot into the ceiling first......he'd have come under fire immediately after that....why you find that so hard to believe is beyond me.

I'm done. Yep, like I said. You win. You clearly never let your guard down and have amazing situational awareness. I honestly can't imagine what it must be like to be watching a movie and not be able to relax because you're on the constant lookout for threats.

I may be the minority, but yes...I do have amazing awareness......I'm a people watcher. I look in the back seat of my car before getting into it at night...I sit facing the front door of restaurants, bars, etc.....I never want my back to an entrance.....and I can watch the movie and enjoy it, but not if people are getting up and moving about....their movement draws my attention, always has...and always will.

And I wonder why only a few people noticed him exit then re-enter. It might have been because they were paying attention to the movie they paid $10 for.

Well, they, like you, must think a "gun free zone" sign will guarantee they never will have to worry about an evil person carrying a gun.





Oh well, like I said, you're absolutely right. I hope you rent yourself out as security. Anyone would be lucky to have a top shot like you at their side.

You're not the first one to suggest this to me....I hone my accuracy skills and take my training serious to protect me and my family....not others. However if I happen to one day save someone else's life because I feared for my own....well that's always a plus correct?

Hey you ever seen that show? Top Shot? Those guys are pretty good. You should try out I bet you could beat them.

I've won a few competitions back in my days of competitively shooting, placed in several more....but like I said, there are many of us who take this **** seriously. I am a pretty good shot.....but like they say, there's always someone else who is better

In Bold