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Old 02-26-2013, 01:33 PM   #176
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I've loved the comic and sat through the first few seasons without comment....

however, the last three shows have been hard to stomach. They've changed things for the sake of changing. The Tyreese/Governor scene pretty much as me on the edge of becoming anti-WD. They have screwed up some many of the great dynamics that made the comic awesome.
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:25 PM   #177
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You could just sack up and call me by name since I'm the only one who has mentioned him. And I didn't hate on Tyreese. I did say it was unfortunate they turned him around. I think Tyreece going to Woodbury was, in terms of writing, one of the more logical conclusions. They find the prison and Rick comes off as bat-**** crazy and tells them to leave. Then they find what appears to be a stable community that confirms their experiences at the prison - that Rick is crazy. I suppose if they find out what a tool the Governor is they could turn it around, but why they would flee back to the prison is beyond me.

My beef with the writing is how stupid Andrea, and her whole situation, is.
This isn't the first time Andrea's been stupid where men are concerned though... back at the farmhouse, she was thinking Shane was a better choice as the leader than Rick. She means well but has a weakness for the bad guys and/or poor judgment regarding a man's true character. Shane and the governor were very much the same in that their own self-interests would trump absolutely everything else.

As for Tyreese, he doesn't really know Rick; hasn't yet seen his good side. All he has seen is a mentally-unstable man who refused to help them when they desperately needed shelter and turned them away to possibly die. It's just human nature to resent something like that. And the governor is highly skilled at appearing to be good and kind even though his true nature is the polar opposite... he has a whole town fooled and by appearances, has had them "under his spell" for quite some time; to the point that they don't even question his lies and will go and wage war for no other reason than he said to.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:00 PM   #178
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You could just sack up and call me by name since I'm the only one who has mentioned him. And I didn't hate on Tyreese. I did say it was unfortunate they turned him around. I think Tyreece going to Woodbury was, in terms of writing, one of the more logical conclusions. They find the prison and Rick comes off as bat-**** crazy and tells them to leave. Then they find what appears to be a stable community that confirms their experiences at the prison - that Rick is crazy. I suppose if they find out what a tool the Governor is they could turn it around, but why they would flee back to the prison is beyond me.

My beef with the writing is how stupid Andrea, and her whole situation, is.
... you caught that huh

I wouldn't call Andrea too stupid. Hell, she has a safe environment and lots of luxeries. Why should she trade that if for Rick's situation?

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Old 02-26-2013, 03:32 PM   #179
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I just want to see Andrea full-frontal in all her MILFY glory.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:51 PM   #180
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^ Good post, Blue. I think you nailed it. Add to it that Andrea is looking for some kind of normalcy and intimacy. She thought she found it with the Governor and now she's having a hard time letting go of it even though doubts are starting to come out as evidenced by the knife scene.

Also, someone told me the Governor was awake and saw what Andrea was thinking of doing. I didn't notice this. Did I miss it or was I misinformed?
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:10 PM   #181
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It's believable that someone could say we thought by studying the heads, studying zombies we could find a cure. So that could explain that part for Andrea to hold on that the Governor isnt a lunatic. She's only now figuring out that the Governor probably started the confrontation with her old group. But in the old group her friend Shane got killed by Rick so she isn't probably convinced Rick is always telling the truth.

Also the reason for Merle taking Glenn can be explained that he is crazy and wanted to find his brother. Governor can sort of not take full responsiblity for that either.

Woodbury seems like it could work to Andrea and IMO her behavoir isn't that hard to understand.

Tyrese got introduced a little different for the comic storyline. I think it's almost a 100% certainty he rejoins ricks group at some point and becomes a co leader of the group. Rick probably still hasn't fully snapped and when he does the Governor is going to wish he had never ****ed with him.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:11 PM   #182
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I thought Andrea was treated poorly because in reality Rick goes back for his b****, or his son, but had no problem leaving Andrea.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:55 PM   #183
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It's believable that someone could say we thought by studying the heads, studying zombies we could find a cure. So that could explain that part for Andrea to hold on that the Governor isnt a lunatic. She's only now figuring out that the Governor probably started the confrontation with her old group. But in the old group her friend Shane got killed by Rick so she isn't probably convinced Rick is always telling the truth.

Also the reason for Merle taking Glenn can be explained that he is crazy and wanted to find his brother. Governor can sort of not take full responsiblity for that either.

Woodbury seems like it could work to Andrea and IMO her behavoir isn't that hard to understand.

Tyrese got introduced a little different for the comic storyline. I think it's almost a 100% certainty he rejoins ricks group at some point and becomes a co leader of the group. Rick probably still hasn't fully snapped and when he does the Governor is going to wish he had never ****ed with him.
I agree with most of this except for abandoning Michonne. We don't know what they went through together, but she brought her back from death and kept her alive. And even if she has a stink with Rick - especially after finding out he killed Shane - the rest of the group is good people. And she knew what Shane was capable of.

I do agree that the Governor is asking for it with Rick. I think of Rick with those wanderers in Herschel's bar. He killed both those guys in about three seconds without blinking and Glenn and even Herschel, who abhors violence, were like "....so what's next, Rick?" The dude's wife is dead and he's probably going to blow up. Whether that means before or after he loses his arm, I have no idea.

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Old 02-26-2013, 05:59 PM   #184
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I have to admit I have never read the comic so I cannot comment, but having said that some things - maybe even major things will not translate to a TV show for whatever reason...budget, schedule, ratings, censors, etc etc.

Obviously there is some piss poor writing going on, but I have sustained my disbelief and have bought into the world they created for AMC. At first I was quite skeptical as I was not digging Andrew Lincoln as an actor but he has since grown on me - but ever since he had his 'Brad Pitt - that's not my wife's head in the box' moment of hysteria, they need to get rid of this Margot Kidder crazy spell.

I think the 12-13 episode arc is perfect for TV, as it allows more thought to go into story progression. Anything more or less tends to be super fast or drag on endlessly. For example, last season or Breaking Bad's 8 episode arc was not working and felt out of place for that show. But even shows with good creative teams, its a lot to ask for a full season above 12-13 episodes - not every one can be 'good' and shows start to repeat themselves and get into cliche. It's like watching a cop show - then eventually they run out of storylines and the 'Asian gang episode' pops up.

For TWD, most of the core characters have been killed off, there was a lot of tension within the group so the writers had 'more to work with' - and they were all in the same place and they had time to grow. It's not 'choppy' like OK, lets go to Woodbury, then Ok let's go to Tyrese' group in the woods, lets go to Andrea and Michonne, etc. They have also changed the show runners twice now, so that has a lot to do with the writing quality - hence as I mentioned in a previous post the increase in the gore factor as seasons progressed.

That's my two bits for now - well at least Justified is still good, and coming into it's own.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:01 PM   #185
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It's believable that someone could say we thought by studying the heads, studying zombies we could find a cure. So that could explain that part for Andrea to hold on that the Governor isnt a lunatic. She's only now figuring out that the Governor probably started the confrontation with her old group. But in the old group her friend Shane got killed by Rick so she isn't probably convinced Rick is always telling the truth.

Also the reason for Merle taking Glenn can be explained that he is crazy and wanted to find his brother. Governor can sort of not take full responsiblity for that either.

Woodbury seems like it could work to Andrea and IMO her behavoir isn't that hard to understand.

Tyrese got introduced a little different for the comic storyline. I think it's almost a 100% certainty he rejoins ricks group at some point and becomes a co leader of the group. Rick probably still hasn't fully snapped and when he does the Governor is going to wish he had never ****ed with him.
Good point on Rick killing Shane probably threw her for a loop. Her and Shane were close, her and Rick uh not so much.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:58 AM   #186
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MyMind, I got your rep about my leaking spoilers for the comic. First, I wasn't trying to spill the beans. It actually came up several pages ago so the cat was out of the bag. Second, there are already huge differences between the comic and the show. For example, Carol and Tyreece have a relationship on the farm. And sophia doesn't die or become a zombie. And the Dixon brothers don't exist. Rick should have already lost his hand. Will he lose a hand? I have no idea.

I suppose something could be said for those who are reading the comic, so I'll try not to divulge too much, but I don't think it's a "spoiler" pointing out differences from the comic. I honestly have no idea if Rick is going to lose his hand or any appendage or organ. I don't believe theorizing he might because of what happened in the comic is a spoiler though, since I honestly have no idea. I do apologize for divulging the comic, though. The Game of Thrones thread has a bit of overlap and people are more careful in that one, so I understand.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:06 PM   #187
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Good point on Rick killing Shane probably threw her for a loop. Her and Shane were close, her and Rick uh not so much.
Lori was entirely responsible for the Rick/Shane showdown, as she kept sending mixed messages (one time she'd insist that the baby was Rick's; but then she had the private meeting with Shane where she hinted that it was Shane's). The flirtatious way she behaved in that meeting with Shane was an overt "come-on" rather than what one would expect from a married woman who was trying to cool things down with her still-enamored former lover after finding out she wasn't widowed after all. And Shane wasn't mentally or emotionally stable either... the setting up of the plot to kill Rick (and lay the blame on the young kid they were holding in the barn) wasn't the action of a sane man. Shane gave Rick no choice; it was kill or be killed and that fact was spelled out to Andrea when she asked about Shane.

The fact that Rick & Lori's marriage was in trouble from the first episode of the show... then she slept with his best friend almost instantly after being told he was dead, which ruined Rick & Shane's formerly-close friendship... and was in frequent conflict with Rick throughout her pregnancy... makes the whole "seeing Lori's ghost" silliness seem even more absurd. Maybe if they'd been characterized as a devoted, faithful, working-together-as-a-team married couple who always had each other's back, the "Rick is insane after losing his wife" angle might have worked somewhat. As it is, it's just annoying and unrealistic from the perspective of them being barely on speaking terms in their last interaction before her death. It would be far more believable for the kid to be acting crazy with having to shoot his mother after she "turned".
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:07 PM   #188
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Comics only give a glimpse and dont spoil anything because its much different. I heard in the comics Tyrese and Carol get a thing going on etc etc which i just don't see comin in this version.

The comics do give a glimpse of things you might see, characters etc etc. But I don't think it says what those characters will do, or if they die etc.

It could be an end of the season thing where Tyrese and Rick end up aligned but it seems logical it will happen.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:25 AM   #189
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As I stated before , they have 16 epsiodes, so need to draaaag every storyline out to the max.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:08 AM   #190
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Lori was entirely responsible for the Rick/Shane showdown, as she kept sending mixed messages (one time she'd insist that the baby was Rick's; but then she had the private meeting with Shane where she hinted that it was Shane's). The flirtatious way she behaved in that meeting with Shane was an overt "come-on" rather than what one would expect from a married woman who was trying to cool things down with her still-enamored former lover after finding out she wasn't widowed after all. And Shane wasn't mentally or emotionally stable either... the setting up of the plot to kill Rick (and lay the blame on the young kid they were holding in the barn) wasn't the action of a sane man. Shane gave Rick no choice; it was kill or be killed and that fact was spelled out to Andrea when she asked about Shane.

The fact that Rick & Lori's marriage was in trouble from the first episode of the show... then she slept with his best friend almost instantly after being told he was dead, which ruined Rick & Shane's formerly-close friendship... and was in frequent conflict with Rick throughout her pregnancy... makes the whole "seeing Lori's ghost" silliness seem even more absurd. Maybe if they'd been characterized as a devoted, faithful, working-together-as-a-team married couple who always had each other's back, the "Rick is insane after losing his wife" angle might have worked somewhat. As it is, it's just annoying and unrealistic from the perspective of them being barely on speaking terms in their last interaction before her death. It would be far more believable for the kid to be acting crazy with having to shoot his mother after she "turned".
I kind of see your point, but I'm going to stick up for Lori a bit here. First she was with Shane quite some time before they started shtoinking. And she really though her husband was dead and the world ended. She was friends with Shane before. Was she not supposed to get close to anyone until some period of mourning ended for Rick? As SOON as Rick showed up it was over and you could tell she felt enormous guilt and shame toward herself and Shane for what happened.

As for the dialogue at the wind mill, I thought she was finally making peace with Shane. She'd been hostile toward him pretty much the entire time and I thought felt her perceived ingratitude and anger may have been pushing Shane off the edge. So she apologized and thanked him for all he had done to help her and her sone. And the baby could be Shane's! No one has a 24/7 post apacalyptic DNA lab open. Aknowledging that isn't bad form, it's a reality that all three people had to deal with. I'll agree the conversation obviously pushed him over the edge, but I don't think she went there to "flirt" back into a frenzy. I think she went apologize and make peace with Shane, even if things were over. She probably thought it would help and not send him off the deep end.

As for their marital problems and how that should have lessened the blow to Rick's psyche, I partiall agree and partially don't. I think Lori dying was the final straw of repeated defeats they had been suffering that Rick was shouldering ALL the blame for. (SPOILERS) Losing Sophia was the start of a huge guilt trip, followed by Dale, Herschel's family, the Farm, Andrea, T-dog and then his wife. I do agree the whole "I'm going to make out with ghosts" thing is incredibly stupid. You want him to have a nervous break down, fine. But a borderline catatonic haze where you make out with your wife on a log is really stupid and the fact it's gone on for a quarter of the season is really stupid. It feels like fill time for the writers.

I will say this, Blue. You aren't the only person who watches the show who found Lori annoying. She didn't bug me as much.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:11 AM   #191
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Can someone explain to me how the spoiler tag works?
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:23 AM   #192
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Lori was entirely responsible for the Rick/Shane showdown, as she kept sending mixed messages (one time she'd insist that the baby was Rick's; but then she had the private meeting with Shane where she hinted that it was Shane's). The flirtatious way she behaved in that meeting with Shane was an overt "come-on" rather than what one would expect from a married woman who was trying to cool things down with her still-enamored former lover after finding out she wasn't widowed after all. And Shane wasn't mentally or emotionally stable either... the setting up of the plot to kill Rick (and lay the blame on the young kid they were holding in the barn) wasn't the action of a sane man. Shane gave Rick no choice; it was kill or be killed and that fact was spelled out to Andrea when she asked about Shane.

The fact that Rick & Lori's marriage was in trouble from the first episode of the show... then she slept with his best friend almost instantly after being told he was dead, which ruined Rick & Shane's formerly-close friendship... and was in frequent conflict with Rick throughout her pregnancy... makes the whole "seeing Lori's ghost" silliness seem even more absurd. Maybe if they'd been characterized as a devoted, faithful, working-together-as-a-team married couple who always had each other's back, the "Rick is insane after losing his wife" angle might have worked somewhat. As it is, it's just annoying and unrealistic from the perspective of them being barely on speaking terms in their last interaction before her death. It would be far more believable for the kid to be acting crazy with having to shoot his mother after she "turned".
The ghost deal is a manifestation of Rick's guilt that he wasn't on good terms with Lori at the time of her death, not because he misses his loving, faithful wife so much. I think you have to look at it from that angle.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:39 AM   #193
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The ghost deal is a manifestation of Rick's guilt that he wasn't on good terms with Lori at the time of her death, not because he misses his loving, faithful wife so much. I think you have to look at it from that angle.
Exactly. And not just guilt with her, but guilt for everything he's shouldered as the leader.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:05 AM   #194
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If I was barely surviving in post-apocalyptic zombie Georgia, and my wife just died giving birth to our baby, who fills the prison I'm living in with cries every night, guaranteed I would be having emotional problems dealing with it. My mind would cling to anything I had in life before that was good...and my wife calling my name in lingerie would be on top of that list.

As for the whole "it's Lori's fault" argument for Shane being a complete whackjob. That isn't true either. Dale caught Shane aiming his rifle at Rick early on when they were camped out at the rock quarry. Shane could have went for Andrea (who liked him), but didn't. He was always a bad seed who would turn on anyone for any reason. He had alienated everyone in the group (except Andrea and Lori) with his back-stabbing ways, before finally challenging Rick to a duel.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:26 AM   #195
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This weeks episode was a yawner (just watched it last night). Seriously, Andrea knifing the governor was supposed to solve everything? How? It was a stupid suggestion. It's not like the town was going to look to her to lead, they'd lynch her for murder.

Only thing that happened was the Governor got the night of his life.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:01 PM   #196
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They should have never killed off Shane. Just have him seem to have been killed and or missing.

He would have been the perfect overriding arch enemy ever lurking in the shadows, scheming in seclusion , and occasionally throwing monkey wrenches at the group without the group knowing who's the culprit. And after Lori died, his character could have really gone off the deep end with an overriding madness to get his child back and going from harassing the group to bent on completely destroying the group in sadistic and twisted ways that would make the Governor blush. After all the worst enemies are usually the ones who truly know you and then betray you.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:56 PM   #197
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who here would have sex with a zombie
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:42 PM   #198
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who here would have sex with a zombie
Hell who here hasn't?
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:43 PM   #199
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Hell who here hasn't?
The girls? I'm not sure there is zombie men sex (nor do i intend to find out), but there is surely zombie women sex.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:24 PM   #200
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I kind of see your point, but I'm going to stick up for Lori a bit here. First she was with Shane quite some time before they started shtoinking. And she really though her husband was dead and the world ended. She was friends with Shane before. Was she not supposed to get close to anyone until some period of mourning ended for Rick? As SOON as Rick showed up it was over and you could tell she felt enormous guilt and shame toward herself and Shane for what happened.

As for the dialogue at the wind mill, I thought she was finally making peace with Shane. She'd been hostile toward him pretty much the entire time and I thought felt her perceived ingratitude and anger may have been pushing Shane off the edge. So she apologized and thanked him for all he had done to help her and her sone. And the baby could be Shane's! No one has a 24/7 post apacalyptic DNA lab open. Aknowledging that isn't bad form, it's a reality that all three people had to deal with. I'll agree the conversation obviously pushed him over the edge, but I don't think she went there to "flirt" back into a frenzy. I think she went apologize and make peace with Shane, even if things were over. She probably thought it would help and not send him off the deep end.

As for their marital problems and how that should have lessened the blow to Rick's psyche, I partiall agree and partially don't. I think Lori dying was the final straw of repeated defeats they had been suffering that Rick was shouldering ALL the blame for. (SPOILERS) Losing Sophia was the start of a huge guilt trip, followed by Dale, Herschel's family, the Farm, Andrea, T-dog and then his wife. I do agree the whole "I'm going to make out with ghosts" thing is incredibly stupid. You want him to have a nervous break down, fine. But a borderline catatonic haze where you make out with your wife on a log is really stupid and the fact it's gone on for a quarter of the season is really stupid. It feels like fill time for the writers.

I will say this, Blue. You aren't the only person who watches the show who found Lori annoying. She didn't bug me as much.
It seemed to me that Shane had had a "thing" for Lori from the very start... and while the odds were heavily against Rick's survival after being abandoned while comatose in a hospital overrun with zombies, Shane deliberately and intentionally used the situation to his own advantage because it did seem that maybe she wouldn't have slept with him if she'd known there was any chance at all that Rick had survived.

The source of my annoyance with Lori actually isn't Shane or the affair... it's that it has seemed that no one was ever... ever... watching that kid and for both parents (but particularly for his mother since his Dad had so many other responsibilities for the entire group) ensuring his safety (IMO) "should" have been the primary concern in everything, at all times; a child that young shouldn't have been allowed to wander around the woods alone with a gun taunting zombies who are stuck in the mud. Especially after it's known that another child who was separated from the adults (Sophia)... hadn't made it and was among the zombies in the barn. That... and she was a nagging shrew. Inattentive parent + nagging shrew = "difficult to like the character".

Perhaps it's because the writers didn't give much attention to the mother/son relationship, but it seemed like Carl's relationship with Lori... much like Rick's... wasn't particularly close. And if having to shoot her bothered Carl, there hasn't yet been any indication of it and that kinda bothers me too. There's something troubling... a hint of sociopathy... in a kid that age who can shoot his own mother (even if he is just eliminating a threat to the group) and not be extremely traumatized.

Totally agree that Rick's been shouldering too much responsibility for too long and that's why he's starting to "crack" under the pressure. That storyline's gone on so long though that the viewing audience is pretty much universally finding it "annoying" (the consensus on "The Talking Dead" was how irritating Rick's behavior in last week's episode was). It's going to alienate viewers if they don't move on to something else soon.
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