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Old 02-19-2013, 08:59 AM   #126
Pontius Pirate
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Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
lol. Jesus didn't specifically address many, many, many things. That does not mean He is ok with it. Jesus didn't say anything about beastiality either.
And yet the church feels a need to trumpet the bible as their "proof" that God is not okay with homosexuality and use that proof as their defense in witholding societal rights that all other protected classes have.

Meanwhile: adultery, divorce, alcoholism, and the growing gap between the rich & poor (very CLEAR things that the bible says are not okay) fly under the radar of the religious right.....sorry, I mean the religious right PRACTICES all those things.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:49 AM   #127
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Thanks for narrowing it.

It might explain why some choose to ignore some text, but it is very thin. It's more of a 'suggestion' and says nothing about homophobia.
Not sure if you really mean homophobia, or if you meant homosexuality here. If you mean homophobia, I think you're right. But being afraid of anything/anyone wasn't really Jesus' style, and I think he'd obviously preach against irrational fear and/or shunning anyone just because they practice something you don't agree with.

As for the rest, you have to think through Jesus' teaching as a whole, in addition to the understanding of his day. Homosexuality was pretty universally condemned back in those days, and Jesus didn't spend a ton of time being Captain Obvious and restating things which everyone pretty much already believed.

He was on record drawing a very hard line on adultery, which almost nobody meets (myself included) And in Matthew 19 he reiterates Genesis in regards to God joining one man and one woman.

In this context, and the context of the prevailing wisdom of the time he lived, it's ridiculous to think that Jesus would've bothered saying anything about homosexuality, unless he thought something was wrong with that prevailing wisdom. Or thought about another way, when Acts talks about sexual immorality, that should be taken as immorality as they would've defined it. Not how society decides to define it on any given day.

If the fact that Jesus was silent on this is evidence of anything, it's evidence of the opposite of what you're saying. But in my thinking, Jesus tended to preach on what he encountered. It's hard to imagine him running into that situation, considering the sexually-reserved (repressed? ) nature of the culture he lived in.

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Old 02-19-2013, 10:09 AM   #128
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And since you bolded
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You will do well to avoid these things.
I think you are correct in a sense. Unlike some people, I don't believe homosexuality, or eating "strangled" meat (now that I thinka bout it maybe that was just code for a BJ ) is going to necessarily see anyone turned away at the gate. It shouldn't, any more than some of my sexually immoral (adulterous) thoughts should keep me away. We all fall short.

Which is maybe why I tend to be a Sola fide guy.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:41 AM   #129
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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/2...s-greatest-sin

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7369021/fair-game
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:00 AM   #130
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Not sure if you really mean homophobia, or if you meant homosexuality here. If you mean homophobia, I think you're right. But being afraid of anything/anyone wasn't really Jesus' style, and I think he'd obviously preach against irrational fear and/or shunning anyone just because they practice something you don't agree with.

As for the rest, you have to think through Jesus' teaching as a whole, in addition to the understanding of his day. Homosexuality was pretty universally condemned back in those days, and Jesus didn't spend a ton of time being Captain Obvious and restating things which everyone pretty much already believed.

He was on record drawing a very hard line on adultery, which almost nobody meets (myself included) And in Matthew 19 he reiterates Genesis in regards to God joining one man and one woman.

In this context, and the context of the prevailing wisdom of the time he lived, it's ridiculous to think that Jesus would've bothered saying anything about homosexuality, unless he thought something was wrong with that prevailing wisdom. Or thought about another way, when Acts talks about sexual immorality, that should be taken as immorality as they would've defined it. Not how society decides to define it on any given day.

If the fact that Jesus was silent on this is evidence of anything, it's evidence of the opposite of what you're saying. But in my thinking, Jesus tended to preach on what he encountered. It's hard to imagine him running into that situation, considering the sexually-reserved (repressed? ) nature of the culture he lived in.
I did mean homophobia as I was looking for a source that would explain the uncompromising and, IMO, un-Christian intolerance and bigotry. And as the Bishop's article I posted suggests, it's mainly Leviticus, a source that is selectively quoted to suit personal moral agendas, and in some cases hate.
.
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One has to wonder why the biblical literalists who cite this passage against homosexuality don't seem to go all the way and advocate for death as the punishment for homosexual behavior! We cannot have it both ways.
Anyway, back to Tebow and the Church he has chosen.
There can be no doubt that Tebow is fully aware of the homophobic views of this pastor, every public move he makes is carefully orchestrated.

We should all be disappointed that he supports this bigotry.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:05 AM   #131
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And since you bolded

I think you are correct in a sense. Unlike some people, I don't believe homosexuality, or eating "strangled" meat (now that I thinka bout it maybe that was just code for a BJ ) is going to necessarily see anyone turned away at the gate. It shouldn't, any more than some of my sexually immoral (adulterous) thoughts should keep me away. We all fall short.

Which is maybe why I tend to be a Sola fide guy.


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Old 02-20-2013, 07:08 AM   #132
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The CBS report really nails it.

Tebow and his 'handlers' have made a huge mistake.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:32 AM   #133
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I did mean homophobia as I was looking for a source that would explain the uncompromising and, IMO, un-Christian intolerance and bigotry. And as the Bishop's article I posted suggests, it's mainly Leviticus, a source that is selectively quoted to suit personal moral agendas, and in some cases hate.
.

Anyway, back to Tebow and the Church he has chosen.
There can be no doubt that Tebow is fully aware of the homophobic views of this pastor, every public move he makes is carefully orchestrated.

We should all be disappointed that he supports this bigotry.
I'm not sure you really get the conflict between your first and second statements. I agree with the first part. And for many of the same reasons, I disagree with the second.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:40 AM   #134
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I'm not sure you really get the conflict between your first and second statements. I agree with the first part. And for many of the same reasons, I disagree with the second.
Fair enough, but could you bold the two statements, I counted four.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:50 AM   #135
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Fair enough, but could you bold the two statements, I counted four.
I'll paraphrase in that first you say intolerance is unchristian, but then that anyone you don't agree with should be blacklisted and shunned.

First, a Christian should be willing to share his faith with anyone. Regardless of who they are, or what they've done. Funny thing is Tebow could go to death row and talk to the inmates, and nobody would have any issue with it. That's how ridiculous this rift has become.

Second, simply speaking to a Church does not indicate support for any or all of their doctrine. You can't even assume someone that attends the church necessarily supports everything it preaches. I thought we learned that in 2008.

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Old 02-20-2013, 08:04 AM   #136
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I'll paraphrase in that first you say intolerance is unchristian, but then that anyone you don't agree with should be blacklisted and shunned.

First, a Christian should be willing to share his faith with anyone. Regardless of who they are, or what they've done. Funny thing is Tebow could go to death row and talk to the inmates, and nobody would have any issue with it. That's how ridiculous this rift has become.

Second, simply speaking to a Church does not indicate support for any or all of their doctrine. You can't even assume someone that attends the church necessarily supports everything it preaches. I thought we learned that in 2008.
You'll have to post my comments that make this statement.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:47 AM   #137
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You'll have to post my comments that make this statement.
Seems self-explanatory. On what basis should Tim Tebow, as a Christian, refuse an invitation to speak at this church (as opposed to any other church)?
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:50 AM   #138
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Seems self-explanatory. On what basis should Tim Tebow, as a Christian, refuse an invitation to speak at this church (as opposed to any other church)?
Outside of the extreme hate speech that comes out of this church,nothing.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:06 AM   #139
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Outside of the extreme hate speech that comes out of this church,nothing.
Do you think Christ refused to preach to anyone, regardless of what they believed? This concept of "I'm not going to talk to you because I'm better than that" is anything but Christian.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:13 AM   #140
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Do you think Christ refused to preach to anyone, regardless of what they believed? This concept of "I'm not going to talk to you because I'm better than that" is anything but Christian.
Christ preached inclusion of all people,not something this church represents.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:40 AM   #141
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Seems self-explanatory. On what basis should Tim Tebow, as a Christian, refuse an invitation to speak at this church (as opposed to any other church)?
Oh, maybe because the pastor is a homophobe and a bigot and Tebow validates the man by speaking there. I thought Tebow better than that. And make no mistake, Tebow knows exactly what Jeffress stands for.

If Tebow were to speak at a KKK or White Supremacist meeting, I'd feel much the same way. Don't!

But that is a long way from your accusation:

Quote:
but then that anyone you don't agree with should be blacklisted and shunned.
If your asking do I think bigots, homophobes, racists, xenophobes should be 'shunned'?

Yes, don't you??
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:48 AM   #142
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Oh, maybe because the pastor is a homophobe and a bigot and Tebow validates the man by speaking there. I thought Tebow better than that. And make no mistake, Tebow knows exactly what Jeffress stands for.

If Tebow were to speak at a KKK or White Supremacist meeting, I'd feel much the same way. Don't!

But that is a long way from your accusation:



If your asking do I think bigots, homophobes, racists, xenophobes should be 'shunned'?

Yes, don't you??
So if someone speaks somewhere then they get all the beliefs of that organization pinned to them?
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:10 AM   #143
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But that is a long way from your accusation:



If your asking do I think bigots, homophobes, racists, xenophobes should be 'shunned'?

Yes, don't you??
Cool. In three sentences, you renounce my "accusation" and then accept it.

Jesus dealt with all of the above. And prostitutes. Criminals. Cheats. Tax collectors. etc etc. He shunned no one. Only the world worries about what other people think about it.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:13 AM   #144
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So if someone speaks somewhere then they get all the beliefs of that organization pinned to them?
"The Government Lied about Pearl Harbor"

-President Obama, via his church.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:20 AM   #145
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"The Holocaust is a Hoax"

-President Obama via his Cairo speech to Muslim Brotherhood members.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:37 AM   #146
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So if someone speaks somewhere then they get all the beliefs of that organization pinned to them?

You're generalizing, be specific.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:40 AM   #147
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Cool. In three sentences, you renounce my "accusation" and then accept it.

Jesus dealt with all of the above. And prostitutes. Criminals. Cheats. Tax collectors. etc etc. He shunned no one. Only the world worries about what other people think about it.
I asked you a question as you have 'personalized' the conversation.

Do you shun, bigots, homophobes, racists, xenophobes?

In case 'shun' isn't understood:

Quote:
shun [ʃʌn]
vb shuns, shunning, shunned
(tr) to avoid deliberately; keep away from
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:50 AM   #148
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I asked you a question as you have 'personalized' the conversation.

Do you shun, bigots, homophobes, racists, xenophobes?

In case 'shun' isn't understood:
I'm sure I do to some extent. Everyone 'shuns' others they're not comfortable with on some level. But that's not the Christian side of BroncoBeavis talking. And in the context of faith, if I was given an invitation to speak from the heart about my faith to anyone, no matter how twisted or depraved (the people, not the faith ) I'd feel guilty if I refused to do so. No matter who it was. The Klan. NAMBLA. Lesbian Nazi Hookers' Alliance. Planned Parenthood.

Anyone.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:56 AM   #149
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I'm sure I do to some extent. Everyone 'shuns' others they're not comfortable with on some level. But that's not the Christian side of BroncoBeavis talking. And in the context of faith, if I was given an invitation to speak from the heart about my faith to anyone, no matter how twisted or depraved (the people, not the faith ) I'd feel guilty if I refused to do so. No matter who it was. The Klan. NAMBLA. Lesbian Nazi Hookers' Alliance. Planned Parenthood.

Anyone.
So if a there was a clan rally and they wanted you to come and be the first speaker to talk about your race you would do it? You would feel honored?
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:08 PM   #150
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So if a there was a clan rally and they wanted you to come and be the first speaker to talk about your race you would do it? You would feel honored?
Race? I think you're missing something here.
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