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Old 02-14-2013, 04:49 PM   #26
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Perhaps enforcing liability for gun sellers that don't check on buyers.
What percentage of gun dealers are bad apples? The local gun dealers in my area all follow the ATF regulations. They can't keep the products on the shelf and have no problem finding buyers that can pass a background check. You do realize there are no gun dealers in the Chicago area right? Do you think the knuckle draggers with their pants down below their ass are getting their guns from a licensed dealer?
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:49 PM   #27
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Do you think gun owners will work to weed out the bad apple gun dealers and gun traders?

Besides, if urban blacks account for most with-gun violence, then white folk need not worry. Why do you?
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:50 PM   #28
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What percentage of gun dealers are bad apples? The local gun dealers in my area all follow the ATF regulations. They can't keep the products on the shelf and have no problem finding buyers that can pass a background check. You do realize there are no gun dealers in the Chicago area right? Do you think the knuckle draggers with their pants down below their ass are getting their guns from a licensed dealer?
not only that but they are of course also registering those weapons before committing their violent crimes....
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:51 PM   #29
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Bam! --EXACTLY. Look at Tv shows from the 1950's -60's (Bonanza, the Rifleman) all shows that depicted violence in the form of a man pulling a trigger.....Unfortunately, and a point that some Liberals miss out on, most of the gun crimes that are committed by the 'cultural deviants' in urban america are possessed ILLEGALLY so the gun laws that are being passed in an effort to decrease gun murders in this country does not effect their ability to arm themselves for the purpose of committing violent crime....
Until the gun show and private resale loopholes are closed, the current laws only apply to law abiding citizens.

So why is it a problem closing the obvious loopholes that put the guns in the hands of criminals? Why does the gun lobby keep fighting it??
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:53 PM   #30
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One problem with Williams' thesis:



I guess that explains why so many black men are locked up, ex-cons, or on probation. We're being too easy on them.
Drugs account for a large proportion of incarcerations...
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:54 PM   #31
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Until the gun show and private resale loopholes are closed, the current laws only apply to law abiding citizens.

So why is it a problem closing the obvious loopholes that put the guns in the hands of criminals? Why does the gun lobby keep fighting it??
I'm not a supporter of EVERY NRA stance; I personally believe in universal background checks and some process by which to follow to re-sell those weapons....
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:39 PM   #32
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A lot of individuals should be barred from guns, but they aren't. The Gun Show loophole is the obvious loophole that needs to be closed, but the gun lobby will keep fighting it.

It's a source for criminals and anyone else who can't pass a background check.

Individuals enjoy the same loophole when they re-sell a gun.



http://gunvictimsaction.org/fact-she...rms-criminals/
I seriously doubt that all these black on black deaths are perpetrated by blacks who go to a gun show and buy a gun. In fact, I'm willing to bet that almost none of the guns used in these homicides were purchased at gun shows.

Gun shows were initially started so that gun enthusiasts, that is, collectors, could go to a place and buy or sell their guns to other gun enthusiasts. Unfortunately gun dealers are now allowed to show up and sell guns too. Point being, if you did NOT allow gun dealers to go to these shows and simply kept the shows for collectors and other gun enthusiasts to go and buy, sell, exchange, etc. then I think this could curb any abuse by someone who is just trying to skirt the system in order to purchase a gun for criminal activity.

I have no idea how many people go to gun shows intending to buy a gun so they can commit a crime, but I speculate very few, if any people go to gun shows for this purpose.

Gun enthusiasts go to gun shows. I don't really think gang bangers and other perps go to the shows because theres a bunch of stuff there they have no interest in. It just doesn't make sense.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:31 PM   #33
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I seriously doubt that all these black on black deaths are perpetrated by blacks who go to a gun show and buy a gun. In fact, I'm willing to bet that almost none of the guns used in these homicides were purchased at gun shows.

Gun shows were initially started so that gun enthusiasts, that is, collectors, could go to a place and buy or sell their guns to other gun enthusiasts. Unfortunately gun dealers are now allowed to show up and sell guns too. Point being, if you did NOT allow gun dealers to go to these shows and simply kept the shows for collectors and other gun enthusiasts to go and buy, sell, exchange, etc. then I think this could curb any abuse by someone who is just trying to skirt the system in order to purchase a gun for criminal activity.

I have no idea how many people go to gun shows intending to buy a gun so they can commit a crime, but I speculate very few, if any people go to gun shows for this purpose.

Gun enthusiasts go to gun shows. I don't really think gang bangers and other perps go to the shows because theres a bunch of stuff there they have no interest in. It just doesn't make sense.
That may well be correct.

This is an interesting article that seems to pinpoint where most guns used in a crime originate.

They come from several sources, what I don't understand is why is it so difficult to prevent these corrupt, licensed dealers? Is this a case of gun dealers needing much more intensive background checks? What kind of liability insurance must they have.....insurance companies are amazingly good at underwriting risk and they and the dealers bear the cost.

The immunity the gun industry enjoys, needs to be looked at much more closely.

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In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ocon/guns.html
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:32 PM   #34
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I really think that each gun owner should be responsible for their weapons, in every sense.
So even if someone breaks into my house and steals gun i should still be responsible if its used in a crime? What if I loan goan to a totally legal citizen. Someone I have always known to be a good person. He is going hunting. Then on hunting trip he accidently shoots someone and kills them. Should i be responsible?

So your phrase in every sense seems illogical to me. Way to many scenarios to say the owner always responsible.

If you loan a car out should be responsible if the person kills someone with it?
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:43 PM   #35
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Here's the main reason how corrupt gun dealers are able to operate. Immunity that was passed into law, thanks to the NRA and gun lobby.



NRA Campaigns to Protect Corrupt Gun Dealers


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The Bushmaster assault rifle that Lee Boyd Malvo, then 17, used to attack was later discovered to have been "missing" from the Seattle-area Bull's Eye Shooter's Supply. However, the shop never reported it missing or stolen.

Thanks to the Legal Action Project lawyers at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, who brought a lawsuit on behalf of the victims, Bull's Eye paid two million to the families of those killed by the snipers. Bull's Eye's long history of corrupt gun dealing was exposed, and its owner, Brian Borgelt, lost his license.

Yet Borgelt is exactly the kind of gun dealer that the NRA is campaigning to further protect with its so-called "Reform and Modernization Act" for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) (H.R. 2296 and S.R. 941). This legislation would gut commonsense gun laws and policies designed to close down corrupt gun dealers -- the very dealers who supply guns to criminals -- and further weaken the ATF's ability to fight gun crime.

The NRA lobbyists have persuaded the Senate to hold a hearing on this bill Tuesday, September 14, and hopes to persuade the House to hold a hearing September 21. With all the challenges facing the country, and with only a few days left before Congress adjourns to campaign, spending time on this legislation is a bad idea, and a dangerous one, too!

Each time Wayne LaPierre and the NRA bosses are asked about their objections to strengthening, or enacting new, commonsense gun regulations, they evade the question and shoot back, "We should enforce the laws on the books."

But once, again, the truth has been revealed. The NRA bosses don't care about enforcing existing gun laws and they don't care about helping law enforcement stem the tide of blood flowing from violent drug dealers, gangs, felons, or assault-rifle-wielding snipers.

Indeed, the NRA bosses keep proving that they are the best friends of crooked gun dealers, such as Brian Borgelt, and are even closer with shady Sandy Abrams. An NRA board member until the wave of bad publicity and legal investigations drove him out, Abrams was cited by the ATF for more than 900 federal gun law violations at his Valley Gun store in Baltimore.

Coined "Death Valley" by the Brady Center, it ranked in the top 40 among 80,000 gun shops for supplying guns used in crimes. Guns from his store were linked to 483 crimes, including 41 assaults and 11 homicides. One gun was used to shoot at a police officer.

If these bills get hearings and eventually pass, they would devastate the ATF's ability to protect our communities and families from gun dealers who sell guns into the illegal market.

Specifically, the bills would:

1. Cripple the ATF's ability to shut down crooked gun dealers. Before the ATF could revoke a crooked dealer's license and put him out of business, ATF would have to show that the dealer not only violated the law, but had the specific intent to break the specific law. This is an almost impossible standard of proof for law enforcement to meet.

2. Prohibit ATF from revoking licenses of gun dealers who commit many dangerous crimes, for instance, allowing hundreds of guns to "disappear" from their inventory with no record of sale.

3. Cap fines at extremely low levels for violations found during an inspection of a gun dealer. For example, a dealer with 900 federal gun law violations could face a maximum fine of less than $8.50 per violation.

4. Allow most dealers who violate gun laws to continue selling guns for 60 days after their licenses are revoked, even if they had committed willful violations of federal law.


Call or e-mail your congressional representative today, as well as the members of the Senate and House Judiciary Committees, and tell them to kill this corrupt gun dealer protection act. Tell them to protect our communities and families from the next would-be snipers and gun criminals, and please, tell them now.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-h..._b_710496.html
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:45 PM   #36
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Hopefully, this sanity will prevail

Lawmaker Plans Bill To Lift Immunity For Gun Manufacturers And Dealers
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Add this to the list of proposals to overhaul the gun industry: Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., says he will introduce legislation this week to roll back legal immunity for gun manufacturers and dealers.

Schiff tells NPR there's no need for the 2005 law called the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act to remain on the books. That law gave gun makers, gun dealers and trade groups immunity from most negligence and product liability lawsuits. "Good gun companies don't need special protection from the law," Schiff says, "Bad companies don't deserve it."

Schiff says his proposal would allow lawsuits to move through federal and state courts if plaintiffs could show that gun dealers or makers were negligent, for example, by failing to protect their stores of weapons and failing to keep customers who have felony convictions from getting their hands on guns. Schiff is working with the Brady Center, an organization that has pushed for greater accountability for the gun industry, on his legislation. Schiff and the Brady Center say courts have interpreted the 2005 law too broadly and have dismissed lawsuits by victims and their relatives.

"When someone makes a dangerous product or acts negligently, they ought to be held liable otherwise it encourages irresponsibility," Schiff says.

Any such move is expected to be hotly contested by the National Rifle Association, which has called the 2005 PLCAA law "vitally important" to end efforts by gun control groups to "bankrupt the American firearms industry through reckless lawsuits."
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:50 PM   #37
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So even if someone breaks into my house and steals gun i should still be responsible if its used in a crime? What if I loan goan to a totally legal citizen. Someone I have always known to be a good person. He is going hunting. Then on hunting trip he accidently shoots someone and kills them. Should i be responsible?

So your phrase in every sense seems illogical to me. Way to many scenarios to say the owner always responsible.

If you loan a car out should be responsible if the person kills someone with it?
That's why you have liability insurance......you do, don't you?

Why not have it for guns? Let the insurance industry specify how guns should be reasonably safeguarded.

The extra business would create jobs in the private sector. What's wrong with that?? Damn, I'm a 'job creator.'
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:55 AM   #38
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That's why you have liability insurance......you do, don't you?

Why not have it for guns? Let the insurance industry specify how guns should be reasonably safeguarded.

The extra business would create jobs in the private sector. What's wrong with that?? Damn, I'm a 'job creator.'
How about if I loan you my hedge trimmers or my lawnmower. Or how about my bicycle or maybe a chainsaw? If you cut your arm off with chain saw is it my fault, can i be sued in your crazy world. You can't make people buy insurance to get their rights under the Constitution.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:35 AM   #39
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How about if I loan you my hedge trimmers or my lawnmower. Or how about my bicycle or maybe a chainsaw? If you cut your arm off with chain saw is it my fault, can i be sued in your crazy world. You can't make people buy insurance to get their rights under the Constitution.
Say you loan your gun to a friend and he takes out the family next door, should you share any responsibility?

Or you leave your gun collection around the house and your unstable son takes them and kills 26 people, should you share any responsibility?

Being responsible for your weapons seems so fundamentally obvious.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:53 AM   #40
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So are you ready to discuss that there is a problem with young blacks in urban areas with possession of firearms. Are you willing to racial profile and do random stop-and-frisk on blacks? Like I said it's the elephant in the room and a p***Y like you will cry foul. ?
I'll gladly discuss it. I'm not sure "racial profiling" is any sort of solution to what is a much larger and more complex problem. Like I said before, this is more of an issue of socioeconomics than one of race. The fact that so many lower income African Americans live in crowded, poverty stricken urban areas with a rampant crime, drug and gun problem certainly compounds the issue.


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The Native Americans at Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota realized that alcohol consumption was devastating to their population so they took it upon themselves to ban the possession and sale of any alcohol on the reservation.
Do you think the blacks will ever take that step with firearms on their own?
I don't think the comparison between the issue these Native Americans face is very comparable with the issue we're discussing here. If you have a simple solution like what they did in Pine Ridge I'm all ears.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:37 AM   #41
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It has more to do with poverty and hopelessness than it does with race. And the more we build societies based on "survival of the fittest" rather than cooperative communities, the further down this wormhole we can expect to go. When you build a society based on the law of the jungle, you must have the fortitude to accept the reality that sometimes, the jungle is going to come into the living rooms of the "winners" every once in a while. Combine overpopulation, basic resources out of economic reach, failing education, lack of jobs that can sustain basic survival and then toss in hopelessness on top of it and you have a sociological experiment whose conclusions are foregone.




Really. What the **** do you expect?
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:20 PM   #42
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So are you ready to discuss that there is a problem with young blacks in urban areas with possession of firearms. Are you willing to racial profile and do random stop-and-frisk on blacks? Like I said it's the elephant in the room and a p***Y like you will cry foul.

Why did you come to the conclusion that age & race are the cause, and not say... loners, the unemployed, or those who come from highly religious communities?

All have high correlations with gun violence, I'm just wondering how you determined one to be more causal than the others.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:22 PM   #43
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I'll gladly discuss it. I'm not sure "racial profiling" is any sort of solution to what is a much larger and more complex problem. Like I said before, this is more of an issue of socioeconomics than one of race. The fact that so many lower income African Americans live in crowded, poverty stricken urban areas with a rampant crime, drug and gun problem certainly compounds the issue.
It doesnít mater if itís a socio-economics issue, the cold hard facts are that the gun violence is being perpetrated by the young urban blacks.

Here is a breakdown from the Washington Post, of gun violence in New York City. In short, 95.1 percent of all murder victims and 95.9 percent of all shooting victims in New York City are black or Hispanic. And 90.2 percent of those arrested for murder and 96.7 percent of those arrested for shooting someone are black and Hispanic.

In the south, the Baton Rouge Advocate published a lengthy analysis of the 2012 murder stats in the city. Last year, 83 people died by homicide in Baton Rouge. Of that number, 87% were black, and 87% were male. Two-thirds had been in trouble with the law before, and one-third had been in trouble with the law for drugs. The median age of victims: 26. Of the perpetrators, the median age was 22. Get this: 96% of them were black, and 90% were male. Almost two-thirds had previous arrests. One out of four had a drug record.
Most of the murders took place in the poorest parts of the city. What can we learn from these statistics? That murder in Baton Rouge is almost entirely about young black men from the poor part of town killing other young black men from the poor part of town. It's mostly a matter of thugs killing thugs.

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Old 02-15-2013, 12:44 PM   #44
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Bam! --EXACTLY. Look at Tv shows from the 1950's -60's (Bonanza, the Rifleman) all shows that depicted violence in the form of a man pulling a trigger.....Unfortunately, and a point that some Liberals miss out on, most of the gun crimes that are committed by the 'cultural deviants' in urban america are possessed ILLEGALLY so the gun laws that are being passed in an effort to decrease gun murders in this country does not effect their ability to arm themselves for the purpose of committing violent crime....
Hey hey hey. You are being way to logical.

So let's see the far left looms change the subject.

Just a few of the excuses are:

the white males are holding down the minority's.

No jobs for blacks..

Education for blacks is less than for whites.

Yada Yada Yada.

Instead of admitting that blacks* kill other blacks* mostly in turf wars for drug distrubution. They will obfuscate till hell freezes over.


* same applies to Asians and Hispanics depending on areas of the county and within various cities they all kill each other in turf wars.

IT IS THE CRIMINALS KILLING EACH OTHER WITH illegal firearms. once y'all understand that then gun control really becomes moot.

Fix the criminal actions going on and 90% of the gun murders are reduced.

Btw the fallacy that crime is down is just that. The DAs office in most cities have decided to make their stastics lower they would just change the charges of the crime.

Rape now equals sexual assault. Which lowers the the violent crime rates but does nothing to fix the real problem.

I hear this all the time from my friends in law enforcement.

About the only one that is not being under charged right now is the murder/assault by firearm. They trying real hard to inflate that number. trying to justify gun control laws.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:48 PM   #45
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It doesnít matter if itís a socio-economics issue, the cold hard fact is that gun violence is being perpetrated by people raised in a religious community.




You guys are just to pus$y to talk about it.


And who cares if correlation doesn't equal causation? Ice cream sales cause swimming pool drownings. Period.

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Old 02-15-2013, 12:54 PM   #46
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What percentage of gun dealers are bad apples? The local gun dealers in my area all follow the ATF regulations. They can't keep the products on the shelf and have no problem finding buyers that can pass a background check. You do realize there are no gun dealers in the Chicago area right? Do you think the knuckle draggers with their pants down below their ass are getting their guns from a licensed dealer?


Why do you even bother trying to converse with the far left lobotomized loons is beyond me, I have most of them on IGGY since they will never have a clue. I do not even want to waste band width, let alone my time reading their crap.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:59 PM   #47
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It doesnít matter if itís a socio-economics issue, the cold hard fact is that gun violence is being perpetrated by people raised in a religious community.

You guys are just to pus$y to talk about it.


And who cares if correlation doesn't equal causation? Ice cream sales cause swimming pool drownings. Period.
Do you really beleive that crap you are pushing.

Been to many churches over the past decade and have yet to see a gang banger in the pews.

There is an old adage that "Figures never lie, but liars always figure. .

I think I pegged what you are with that chart.

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Old 02-15-2013, 01:13 PM   #48
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Teh had to go teh church and I ask God to help me be a better pERsoN deoop Deoeoopdpodpspo m name LOnestar n i lOv JesUSs
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:39 PM   #49
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Cultural DEVIANCY:

Incredibly, the death toll by murder in Chicago over the past decade is greater than the number of American soldiers who have died in Afghanistan since the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom:
Of the victims of murder in Chicago from 2003 to 2011, an average of 77 percent had a prior arrest history, with a high of 79 percent of the 436 murdered in Chicago in 2010 having arrest histories.
For the same 2003-2011 period, blacks were the victims of 75 percent of 4,265 murders. Blacks also were the offenders in 75 percent of the murders.
According to 2010 U.S. Census information, Chicago has a population of 2,695,598 people. The city is 33 percent black, 32 percent white (not Hispanic), and 30 percent Hispanic or Latino in origin.
For the 2003-2011 period, whites were nearly 6 percent of the victims and accused of carrying out 4 percent of the murders.
For the 2003-2011 period, Hispanics or Latinos were 19 percent of the victims and 20 percent of the offenders.
Chicago murders top Afghanistan death toll | City where no handgun purchases allowed sets pace for violence, By Mihcael Thompson, WND, January 16, 2013
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:41 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by txtebow View Post
Cultural DEVIANCY:

Incredibly, the death toll by murder in Chicago over the past decade is greater than the number of American soldiers who have died in Afghanistan since the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom:
Of the victims of murder in Chicago from 2003 to 2011, an average of 77 percent had a prior arrest history, with a high of 79 percent of the 436 murdered in Chicago in 2010 having arrest histories.
For the same 2003-2011 period, blacks were the victims of 75 percent of 4,265 murders. Blacks also were the offenders in 75 percent of the murders.
According to 2010 U.S. Census information, Chicago has a population of 2,695,598 people. The city is 33 percent black, 32 percent white (not Hispanic), and 30 percent Hispanic or Latino in origin.
For the 2003-2011 period, whites were nearly 6 percent of the victims and accused of carrying out 4 percent of the murders.
For the 2003-2011 period, Hispanics or Latinos were 19 percent of the victims and 20 percent of the offenders.
Chicago murders top Afghanistan death toll | City where no handgun purchases allowed sets pace for violence, By Mihcael Thompson, WND, January 16, 2013
Logic. That is a huge NO NO for the far left loons.
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