Kiper 07 Feb '13 Mock

[DBroncos4life]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

What would your nickel personnel look like?

Who's coming off the field?

I'm probably wrong but doesn't Denver line Miller up on the line with Doom sliding to play the 9 wide position? I guess Vickerson would be the guy.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

Big time. Plus, the way JDR uses his DT's on early downs in a read and react does not help with pressuring the QB I like PFF for talking points, but their absurb analysis and elitism is getting to be as bad as FO has gotten.

Shame though, there is a use for their work for the masses. However, none of them really measure anything but past performance. It's like using an Ibbotson chart to track the stock market. The disclaimer is this "only shows past performance and does not gaurantee future results"

Yeah they definitely still do some things right, I just hate when they try to create a league wide baseline for players playing drastically different roles.

Originally Posted by DBroncos4life

I'm probably wrong but doesn't Denver line Miller up on the line with Doom sliding to play the 9 wide position? I guess Vickerson would be the guy.

Often we're rushing:

Elvis
Ayers
Wolfe
Miller

Almost just as often, we're only rushing 3.

So who are you taking off the field?

Now, with that question in your mind, is it still worth the opportunity cost of someone on the OL or on the back seven?

[DBroncos4life]

Looking at the percentages of DT snaps I guess I have no real clue who the nickel DT is Rev. Unrein at 35.41, Vickerson 44.91, and Bannan was at 50.34%. I thought Wolfe moved in and played next to Vickerson and Miller was on the outside of Wolfe.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Yeah they definitely still do some things right, I just hate when they try to create a league wide baseline for players playing drastically different roles.



Often we're rushing:

Elvis
Ayers
Wolfe
Miller

Almost just as often, we're only rushing 3.

So who are you taking off the field?

Now, with that question in your mind, is it still worth the opportunity cost of someone on the OL or on the back seven?

The more I look at the DL, the more the value stacks in the late second to fourth round. The OL has 5 Elite Prospects IMHO right now, and a real impressive 2-4th round run of guys with potential. Its the DB's I can not get a solid perspective. I see a bunch of guys I am grading WAY higher than their current draft value across many internet sites. Until they run in INDY, I will not be able to really come to grips with their overall value.

Also, do you see an extremely high number of CB to safety conversions in this draft? I keep seeing a TON of guys who do not grade as NFL CB's except in a heavy Zone scheme, but can tackle and cover the deep ball. What are you seeing?

[DBroncos4life]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Yeah they definitely still do some things right, I just hate when they try to create a league wide baseline for players playing drastically different roles.



Often we're rushing:

Elvis
Ayers
Wolfe
Miller

Almost just as often, we're only rushing 3.

So who are you taking off the field?

Now, with that question in your mind, is it still worth the opportunity cost of someone on the OL or on the back seven?

You are saying you want to go OL and CB with the first two picks right? I'm fine with that. Give me Bennie Logan to replace Wolfe and Wolfe to replace Ayers and I'm happy.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

The more I look at the DL, the more the value stacks in the late second to fourth round. The OL has 5 Elite Prospects IMHO right now, and a real impressive 2-4th round run of guys with potential. Its the DB's I can not get a solid perspective. I see a bunch of guys I am grading WAY higher than their current draft value across many internet sites. Until they run in INDY, I will not be able to really come to grips with their overall value.

Also, do you see an extremely high number of CB to safety conversions in this draft? I keep seeing a TON of guys who do not grade as NFL CB's except in a heavy Zone scheme, but can tackle and cover the deep ball. What are you seeing?

I think this is a really SOLID corner class without a particularly elite standout. Definitely dont want to condemn anyone to safety until after Indy Real easy to put your foot in your mouth that way haha

Originally Posted by DBroncos4life

You are saying you want to go OL and CB with the first two picks right? I'm fine with that. Give me Bennie Logan to replace Wolfe and Wolfe to replace Ayers and I'm happy.

Not necessarily. I want the BPA at OL, MLB and DB.

We can grab some worthless fatties who will be out of breath after 2 snaps later on.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

I think this is a really SOLID corner class without a particularly elite standout. Definitely dont want to condemn anyone to safety until after Indy Real easy to put your foot in your mouth that way haha



Not necessarily. I want the BPA at OL, MLB and DB.

We can grab some worthless fatties who will be out of breath after 2 snaps later on.

That is exactly HOW I see it as well. No, top ten CB at all and a lot of late first rounders maybe 4 if they run well.

The DL has some great run stuffers in the middle rounds, guys who COULD improve the DL on run downs and be cheaper than Vets. I also totally see DEN needing to get BPA at OL, DB, and MLB in the first three rounds. This is a lineman draft early and value draft at CB and LB IMHO.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

We can grab some worthless fatties who will be out of breath after 2 snaps later on.

FU

[Rascal]

I think it is very like we see a repeat of last year for Denver (i.e. trading down).

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

That is exactly HOW I see it as well. No, top ten CB at all and a lot of late first rounders maybe 4 if they run well.

The DL has some great run stuffers in the middle rounds, guys who COULD improve the DL on run downs and be cheaper than Vets. I also totally see DEN needing to get BPA at OL, DB, and MLB in the first three rounds. This is a lineman draft early and value draft at CB and LB IMHO.

Absolutely agreed. I like the depth of the WR class.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by Rascal

I think it is very like we see a repeat of last year for Denver (i.e. trading down).

If they could get the right partner and with the BPA and needs as they fall right now, I would be ALL for that.

The only way I do not do that is if an Elite OL or CB drops to 28. I would be Shocked if an ELITE DT drops to 28 right now. I seriously think several of the high DT's you see in Mocks right now are tremendously over valued at this point and there are only 4 Elite DT's I would go first rounder on. DT's have to be Pass rushers to go in the early rounds or be Wilfork good as a disruptive guy at the POA.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

That is exactly HOW I see it as well. No, top ten CB at all and a lot of late first rounders maybe 4 if they run well.

The DL has some great run stuffers in the middle rounds, guys who COULD improve the DL on run downs and be cheaper than Vets. I also totally see DEN needing to get BPA at OL, DB, and MLB in the first three rounds. This is a lineman draft early and value draft at CB and LB IMHO.

It'd be a great time to have an earliesh 2nd rounder. I think there's going to be a lot of stellar players (a guy like Poyer, for example) still on the board because of the same glutton you're seeing.

Of course, a FEW of these guys are a sub 4.4 away from going top fifteen.

[ludo21]

anyway to post the entire kiper mock and mcshay one for that matter? or pm it to me?? plzz

[MagicHef]

The answer to improved interior pass rush isn't in the draft, its in the improvement of the young guys who are actually rushing the passer from the inside. That's Wolfe, Ayers, Jackson and Unrein.

Also, no QBs in the first is absurd.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

If they could get the right partner and with the BPA and needs as they fall right now, I would be ALL for that.

The only way I do not do that is if an Elite OL or CB drops to 28. I would be Shocked if an ELITE DT drops to 28 right now. I seriously think several of the high DT's you see in Mocks right now are tremendously over valued at this point and there are only 4 Elite DT's I would go first rounder on. DT's have to be Pass rushers to go in the early rounds or be Wilfork good as a disruptive guy at the POA.

This is pretty much the same thing I was saying months ago. The only 2 guys who are definitely worth a 1st round pick are:

1. Star Lotulelei - Definitely a 1st rounder, great strength, motor, athleticism
2. Sheldon Richardson - Similar prospect to Fletcher Cox in 2012

The 2nd-tier DT prospects from 2013, I have rated similarly (but slightly higher) to many of the 2nd round DT prospects from 2012. I can see these guys going anywhere from 20 to 55:

1. Sharrif Floyd - Blue-chip prospect without elite production
2. Jesse Williams - Athletic NT prospect with average production
3. Big Hank - 20 year-old with great size, and great tackle production as an NT
4. Kawann Short - Polished 24 year-old who is ready to contribute immediately anywhere on the DL.
5. John Jenkins - Enormous NT prospect, with average production, but quick feet

The question is, do the Broncos have the luxury to spend their 1st round draft pick in order to replace Bannan or Vickerson (who aren't terrible)? I think the Broncos definitely need to spend one of their first two draft picks on a CB. Let's say they target Robert Alford at #58...what do they do at #28?

Unfortunately, a 1st round DT with average production, is something they can't afford. Here's my list for #28:

1. Sam Montgomery
2. Manti Te'o
3. Menelik Watson

[Bmore Manning]

Price you now dig Te'o?

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Bmore Manning

Price you now dig Te'o?

I would have picked Te'o at #25 for the Broncos last year. I have always viewed him as a 20-32 draft pick. He's a good football player, and one of the best MIKE's to come out in 5 years.

The only thing I had issue with, is you guys calling him a top 5 pick...and that's exactly what I said several months ago. He is simply not athletic enough to be considered as a top 15 prospect.

[Requiem]

Menelik Watson in the first round? Dude no.

[pricejj]

You also, can't disregard Minter at #28.

So pretty much zoning in on Montgomery, Te'o, and considering Minter in round 1. Alford in round 2 (thanks Rev). I am getting some interest in Menelik Watson in the 1st round depending on Kuper's status. Can Watson play LT?

[DBroncos4life]

Originally Posted by pricejj

You also, can't disregard Minter at #28.

So pretty much zoning in on Montgomery, Te'o, and considering Minter in round 1. Alford in round 2 (thanks Rev). I am getting some interest in Menelik Watson in the 1st round depending on Kuper's status. Can Watson play LT?

Watson will be 25 years old his rookie year and has played only 20 college games. 8 of which was at a small juco California school. Requiem would know more about him then me, but I think he is too old and too raw for my blood with Peyton as our QB.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by DBroncos4life

Watson will be 25 years old his rookie year and has played only 20 college games. 8 of which was at a small juco California school. Requiem would know more about him then me, but I think he is too old and too raw for my blood with Peyton as our QB.

Didn't know he was 24 already. I saw him listed as a true Jr. Yeah, that pretty much puts him squarely in round 2.

I gotta admit. I think Brooking and Irving can get the job done at MLB in 2013. Irving still could be the longterm answer.

Sam Montgomery or bust.

[BroncosfanGuy]

Originally Posted by pricejj

I gotta admit. I think Brooking and Irving can get the job done at MLB in 2013. Irving still could be the longterm answer.

no offense, but what is any of this based on? Brooking is like 87 years old in terms of NFL mlb. He was a stopgap after it was apparent Mays wasn't the answer at mike. outside of an onside kick against Miami, what has Irving done to instill this confidence?

[Requiem]

Watson has played in 20 football games in his life. Twelve out of fourteen this year with the Seminoles. He's an absolute freak, but extremely raw and will be a 25 year old rookie. He is going to get over drafted because of he will likely go off at Indianapolis and has all-world athleticism. For someone so new to football, he was quite impressive this year at Florida State. He has only played RT and I expect that to continue into the NFL. He has good mobility and would be an ideal fit for a heavy ZBS.

He received a second round grade from the advisory committee, but I think Watson is a tough sell for a team in the first round. You really have to believe he is going to be a difference maker. I don't see it. He was good for his limited experience, but he missed some key blocks this year and had trouble on picking up assignments in the next level. Mentally I just don't think he is all there yet. Too big of a gamble in regards to ROI. You could consider him at the end of second if there aren't better options under the premise that Franklin is moved inside -- but I just don't see that happening unless Kuper doesn't get better.

Watson simply isn't a realistic option for us @ 28. I don't see how it helps the team out immediately -- which is what a first pick should do.

Just my two cents as a Noles fan.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by BroncosfanGuy

no offense, but what is any of this based on? Brooking is like 87 years old in terms of NFL mlb. He was a stopgap after it was apparent Mays wasn't the answer at mike. outside of an onside kick against Miami, what has Irving done to instill this confidence?

Brooking played as well as any newcomer could have played at MIKE for the Broncos in 2013. The Defense dramatically improved after he entered the line-up. Yes, he will be 38 next season...and I expect that to be his last go-round. Brooking is a strong veteran presence, who I expect will be fighting for the starting MIKE job in training camp.

Nate Irving was one of the best MIKE's in college football at NC State. My only worries about him coming out of college were 1) the metal rod in his leg 2) his mouse-like demeanor. So far the metal rod hasn't been a problem, and Irving really started to show flashes this year with his play on the field. He'll get his chance to compete for the starting MIKE in camp as well. He's big, athletic, he has experience in JDR's system, and he fits JDR's mold at MLB..

I have confidence in both Brooking and Irving, but wouldn't be averse to the Broncos drafting a 1st or 2nd round LB.

[Rascal]

I have zero confidence in Brooking. He was a huge liability against the pass and will only continue to get worse. He is not startable at this point in his career. He is a FA and I'd be surprised to see him picked up outside of a backup spot. There is a reason why he was a FA so late last year. The defense improving under his tenure speaks more about the ineptitude of Joe Mays than anything.