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Old 02-01-2013, 09:53 AM   #26
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Can we try sacrificing though? MacGruder? Lonestar?
I'll take a dozen of them over one ThirtyDegrees
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:54 AM   #27
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If God is a Ravens fan, he should GTFO.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:57 AM   #28
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If God's a Ravens fan, then I really don't wanna believe in him.
I think there are people involved in a game and God cares about people. Not so much the outcome but how we respond in situations.

I realize atheists find the higher power idea stupid. However for those who don't believe in God because they think he would be a super man of sorts, flying around stopping bad things from happening, that is a minunderstanding of what many believe about the nature of God. If you are a God raising your children and believe their experiences here on this mortal coil, good and bad, are going to contribute to their being formed how you want them, and by your own basic principles of righteousness you must allow humanity to exercise their agency, then bad things are going to happen. This will condemn the wicked, bring the good home and create opportunities for humanity to learn to take care of each other.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:01 AM   #29
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I think there are people involved in a game and God cares about people. Not so much the outcome but how we respond in situations.

I realize atheists find the higher power idea stupid. However for those who don't believe in God because they think he would be a super man of sorts, flying around stopping bad things from happening, that is a minunderstanding of what many believe about the nature of God. If you are a God raising your children and believe their experiences here on this mortal coil, good and bad, are going to contribute to their being formed how you want them, and by your own basic principles of righteousness you must allow humanity to exercise their agency, then bad things are going to happen. This will condemn the wicked, bring the good home and create opportunities for humanity to learn to take care of each other.
This is one of those things where we'll always just have to agree to disagree, which is fine (and i sincerely HOPE you're right), but i have a very hard time believing in something that's theory or intangible and has given me zero proof of any sort of existence. People often compare feeling of God to Love, but I've felt love, i've felt how it can drive you crazy and instantly change your priorities. Ive never found that from a higher being.

But you're a smart guy and are measured in your beliefs, and I doubt you'd ever use God as an excuse or reason to do something wicked. Unfortunately there are tons of idiots who do, and thats the frustrating thing.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:06 AM   #30
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This is one of those things where we'll always just have to agree to disagree, which is fine (and i sincerely HOPE you're right), but i have a very hard time believing in something that's theory or intangible and has given me zero proof of any sort of existence. People often compare feeling of God to Love, but I've felt love, i've felt how it can drive you crazy and instantly change your priorities. Ive never found that from a higher being.

But you're a smart guy and are measured in your beliefs, and I doubt you'd ever use God as an excuse or reason to do something wicked. Unfortunately there are tons of idiots who do, and thats the frustrating thing.
Stupid people do stupid things for the wrong reasons on both sides of ANY issue.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:07 AM   #31
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Stupid people do stupid things for the wrong reasons on both sides of ANY issue.
No doubt, humans are retarded. And I've actually long said that if religion didn't exist, humans would find something else to justify their retardation. But it's still frustrating when that's the excuse they give.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:19 AM   #32
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I think there are people involved in a game and God cares about people. Not so much the outcome but how we respond in situations.

I realize atheists find the higher power idea stupid. However for those who don't believe in God because they think he would be a super man of sorts, flying around stopping bad things from happening, that is a minunderstanding of what many believe about the nature of God. If you are a God raising your children and believe their experiences here on this mortal coil, good and bad, are going to contribute to their being formed how you want them, and by your own basic principles of righteousness you must allow humanity to exercise their agency, then bad things are going to happen. This will condemn the wicked, bring the good home and create opportunities for humanity to learn to take care of each other.
Come on, children turn out so much better when their parents shelter them from everything and also give them everything they ever desire. We never refer to them as spoiled rotten.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:24 AM   #33
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Can we try sacrificing though? MacGruder? Lonestar?
Wouldn't work. You can't go insulting Mithra through the act of sacrifice.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:28 AM   #34
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I honestly have no answer for you. I admit much of what I take is on faith. I have had spiritual experiences that are powerful and moving and were as life changing as a deep love or a harsh cruelty. What's interesting and disappointing is there are a number of posters on here who will tell you emphatically that what I experienced was of evil design because they're "way" is right and mine is wrong.

Spirituality is deeply personal. I cannot discount the wisdom and power I hear from Budhists who have found profound meaning in their journey's just because they don't believe Christ died for their sins. I have met many who profess to be spiritual, regularly attend church and go to meetings and seem to be shallow, petty and cruel - devoid of any growth that spiritual progression is supposed to afford.

I have wondered how some can experience these things and others cannot. I theorized perhaps God is preparing them for something else, or perhaps some of us evolved to have these experiences because it created a shared experience that bound early mankind together and afford hope in what was an incredibly bleak existence.

I don't know, SonofLeeloLang. I just know what works for me. And I completely accept and applaud that what works for me won't work for others. Even my own brand of Mormonism is different than the guy sitting in the pew next to me this Sunday. For me, this doesn't weaken my own faith, or weaken religion in general. It speaks to the universality of God's ability to touch each person in exactly the way they need to be. Perhaps God has found the best way to mold you into who you need to be is through an atheistic approach.

I don't know. That's the one thing I am sure of.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:01 AM   #35
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I honestly have no answer for you. I admit much of what I take is on faith. I have had spiritual experiences that are powerful and moving and were as life changing as a deep love or a harsh cruelty. What's interesting and disappointing is there are a number of posters on here who will tell you emphatically that what I experienced was of evil design because they're "way" is right and mine is wrong.

Spirituality is deeply personal. I cannot discount the wisdom and power I hear from Budhists who have found profound meaning in their journey's just because they don't believe Christ died for their sins. I have met many who profess to be spiritual, regularly attend church and go to meetings and seem to be shallow, petty and cruel - devoid of any growth that spiritual progression is supposed to afford.

I have wondered how some can experience these things and others cannot. I theorized perhaps God is preparing them for something else, or perhaps some of us evolved to have these experiences because it created a shared experience that bound early mankind together and afford hope in what was an incredibly bleak existence.

I don't know, SonofLeeloLang. I just know what works for me. And I completely accept and applaud that what works for me won't work for others. Even my own brand of Mormonism is different than the guy sitting in the pew next to me this Sunday. For me, this doesn't weaken my own faith, or weaken religion in general. It speaks to the universality of God's ability to touch each person in exactly the way they need to be. Perhaps God has found the best way to mold you into who you need to be is through an atheistic approach.

I don't know. That's the one thing I am sure of.
This is fair! And trust me, I have no issues with your beliefs or anyones personal beliefs. I think its a beautiful thing if your beliefs allow you to be a good person. I do take issue with religious people (or people in general) who judge and shove their beliefs on me, especially if they seep into law and government. And I assume we probably all agree on that.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:05 AM   #36
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I believe God cares about the outcome of football games. I don't believe he cares very much though...
I believe the outcome is more a formality and He proably cares less about it and more about how individuals conduct themselves during the game.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:09 AM   #37
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This is fair! And trust me, I have no issues with your beliefs or anyones personal beliefs. I think its a beautiful thing if your beliefs allow you to be a good person. I do take issue with religious people (or people in general) who judge and shove their beliefs on me, especially if they seep into law and government. And I assume we probably all agree on that.
I never felt attacked by you. And to your last point I would say yes and no. I'm not a fan of legislating the minutiae of a set of beliefs onto a people. However if my beliefs are a critical part of my moral values, how can they not affect my view on moral things like crime, justice and raising children - things that we must make choices on in a political arena? For example, my beliefs in compassion, hard work, self-reliance and personal agency directly contriubute to my fiscally conservative world view. All of those are heavily influenced by my spiritual believes

Interstingly, you talk to some very liberal Mormons and they will tell you the exact same thing - their believes in compassion, hard work, agency and self-reliance are directly related to why they vote for higher taxes, gay marriage and less millitary spending.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:10 AM   #38
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I believe the outcome is more a formality and He proably cares less about it and more about how individuals conduct themselves during the game.
There's decent evidence that He is actually a massive football fan and will even get someone off a murder charge so they can compete in the Superbowl.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:24 AM   #39
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I never felt attacked by you. And to your last point I would say yes and no. I'm not a fan of legislating the minutiae of a set of beliefs onto a people. However if my beliefs are a critical part of my moral values, how can they not affect my view on moral things like crime, justice and raising children - things that we must make choices on in a political arena? For example, my beliefs in compassion, hard work, self-reliance and personal agency directly contriubute to my fiscally conservative world view. All of those are heavily influenced by my spiritual believes

Interstingly, you talk to some very liberal Mormons and they will tell you the exact same thing - their believes in compassion, hard work, agency and self-reliance are directly related to why they vote for higher taxes, gay marriage and less millitary spending.
Well i think morals born from religious views and morals drawn from just being a decent human often cross paths. But I do take issue with gay marriage for example. To me that's an issue steeped in the fact that religions have declared it a "sin."
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:47 AM   #40
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Good analogy, game day superstitions, boob mojo and religion are the same. I agree. They are all stoopid.

Boob mojo doesn't help Denver win, but it does improve the moral of the Mane.

AMEN to all that.............err well

GoD is too busy stopping wars and terrorist attacks to affect a football game.................haha
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:18 PM   #41
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So you think religious people are stupid? I mean if one believes that a deity intervene in our lives, or even plans them, it isn't a leap in logic to think that includes the outcome of football games.

While I am just shy of an atheist, I don't think I would be arrogant enough to claim that religious people are Stoopid.
The question is, does god intervene only in pro games or does he also determine the outcome when I play 2 on 2 pickup basketball with a few friends?

In this case I do think there is valid evidence to claim that believing an intangible but omnipotent and omniscient deity interferes with athletic contests constitutes a pretty serious delusion. I wouldn't equate delusion with stupidity, but certainly if you replace the word god in almost all sentences that involve direct interaction with objects the vast majority of people would agree the sentence is nonsensical.

Example: Santa Claus determines the outcome of football games. I think we can pretty much all agree that that sentence is nonsense, firstly there is no evidence that supports the existence of Santa, but a vast body of evidence that supports that he doesn't exist.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:28 PM   #42
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I honestly have no answer for you. I admit much of what I take is on faith. I have had spiritual experiences that are powerful and moving and were as life changing as a deep love or a harsh cruelty. What's interesting and disappointing is there are a number of posters on here who will tell you emphatically that what I experienced was of evil design because they're "way" is right and mine is wrong.

Spirituality is deeply personal. I cannot discount the wisdom and power I hear from Budhists who have found profound meaning in their journey's just because they don't believe Christ died for their sins. I have met many who profess to be spiritual, regularly attend church and go to meetings and seem to be shallow, petty and cruel - devoid of any growth that spiritual progression is supposed to afford.

I have wondered how some can experience these things and others cannot. I theorized perhaps God is preparing them for something else, or perhaps some of us evolved to have these experiences because it created a shared experience that bound early mankind together and afford hope in what was an incredibly bleak existence.

I don't know, SonofLeeloLang. I just know what works for me. And I completely accept and applaud that what works for me won't work for others. Even my own brand of Mormonism is different than the guy sitting in the pew next to me this Sunday. For me, this doesn't weaken my own faith, or weaken religion in general. It speaks to the universality of God's ability to touch each person in exactly the way they need to be. Perhaps God has found the best way to mold you into who you need to be is through an atheistic approach.

I don't know. That's the one thing I am sure of.
Maybe what you have experienced is some untapped part of your own self? And the faith is a simply a mechanism that allows you to bypass your ego and touch that inner self?
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:29 PM   #43
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Getting in touch with your divine ego (higher self) is important.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:35 PM   #44
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I never felt attacked by you. And to your last point I would say yes and no. I'm not a fan of legislating the minutiae of a set of beliefs onto a people. However if my beliefs are a critical part of my moral values, how can they not affect my view on moral things like crime, justice and raising children - things that we must make choices on in a political arena? For example, my beliefs in compassion, hard work, self-reliance and personal agency directly contriubute to my fiscally conservative world view. All of those are heavily influenced by my spiritual believes

Interstingly, you talk to some very liberal Mormons and they will tell you the exact same thing - their believes in compassion, hard work, agency and self-reliance are directly related to why they vote for higher taxes, gay marriage and less millitary spending.
I would argue against your point that morals are determined by your spirituality. Morals, and in fact very similar moral systems are quite universal to humanity - murder, theft, child rearing, violence, compassion are found in all human societies including those who share not a single aspect of spiritual belief with you. Deep in the amazon there are tribes who share almost identical morals and values with you, despite never having heard a word of english, never having been exposed to the bible in any of its forms or its teachings. The justification for your beliefs may in your specific case have influenced your adherence to your morals, but your morals are quite independent of those beliefs - at least anthropologically.

Any rigid belief system must set forth a number of instructions to be followed, however as times change this set of instructions becomes partly irrelevant - we see that with a number of biblical prohibitions and there are examples in all major religions. When this happens, decisions much be made in situations not accounted for and these decisions must be made based on the entirety of our experience and knowledge, this is where we often see schisms in society as some people will weigh one part of their experience or belief over another. This is why some christians weigh the requirement of compassion and charity highly when talking about tax policy, while others weigh individualism and self reliance higher.

You choose in most situations how you let your beliefs, your education and your basic human values influence you, because there are many examples of where these influences do not agree.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:13 PM   #45
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All is one, seperation only exists in the mind. It's impossible for god not to have an impact, because everyone involved is god.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:18 PM   #46
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One in four Americans think God helps decide the outcome of football games

Rick Chandler
Jan 31, 2013, 9:00 AM EST

......according to the poll, 27 percent of Americans believe that God actually plays a role in determining which team wins a sporting event. Yes, God is waving that ball fair or foul, like an omnipotent Carlton Fisk. Or to put it another way, God spends all day playing Madden NFL 12 with real players.

Which means that David Akers must have really done something wrong in his life recently. God seems to be steamed at him.

The poll, conducted on Jan. 16, consisted of random telephone interviews with 1,033 subjects.

The percentage jumps even higher if you’re a white evangelical Protestant from the South.

Roughly 4-in-10 minority Christians (40%) and white evangelical Protestants (38%) agree that God does play a role in the outcome of a sporting event, compared to less than 3-in-10 (29%) Catholics, less than 1-in-5 (19%) white mainline Protestants, and approximately 1-in-10 (12%) religiously unaffiliated Americans.

More than one-third (36%) of Americans who live in the South agree that God plays a role in determining which team wins a sporting event, compared to nearly 3-in-10 (28%) Americans who live in the Midwest, 1-in-5 (20%) Americans who live in the Northeast, and 15% of Americans who live in the West.
That low percentage for the West is not surprising: that’s where Chargers and Raiders fans live.




Read more here along with always entertaining Yahoo comments: http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/201...games/related/

God Hates John Fox, who was compelled to take a knee with time on the clock, time outs and the best intermediate passer in the history of the NFL....

What did John do to piss God off?
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:53 PM   #47
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I would argue against your point that morals are determined by your spirituality. Morals, and in fact very similar moral systems are quite universal to humanity - murder, theft, child rearing, violence, compassion are found in all human societies including those who share not a single aspect of spiritual belief with you. Deep in the amazon there are tribes who share almost identical morals and values with you, despite never having heard a word of english, never having been exposed to the bible in any of its forms or its teachings. The justification for your beliefs may in your specific case have influenced your adherence to your morals, but your morals are quite independent of those beliefs - at least anthropologically.

Any rigid belief system must set forth a number of instructions to be followed, however as times change this set of instructions becomes partly irrelevant - we see that with a number of biblical prohibitions and there are examples in all major religions. When this happens, decisions much be made in situations not accounted for and these decisions must be made based on the entirety of our experience and knowledge, this is where we often see schisms in society as some people will weigh one part of their experience or belief over another. This is why some christians weigh the requirement of compassion and charity highly when talking about tax policy, while others weigh individualism and self reliance higher.

You choose in most situations how you let your beliefs, your education and your basic human values influence you, because there are many examples of where these influences do not agree.
I totally disagree. The Aztecs had a religion that sacrificed humans to the sun god. There are tribes that eat their enemies because of the beliefs of how consuming your enemy can help you. You say there are "basic human values" and even try and even suggest there is anthropological evidence for such values when the evidence is completely the opposite. People torture, enslave, murder and even eat each other. They commit every carnal act known. For every noble, egalitarian society you point to, I can point to multiple others had cultures and religions that fed horrific behavior. Certainly there is a symbiotic relationship between religion, culture, morals and the society that opperates beneath them, but to say that morals exist in a vaccuum is complete hogwash.

And personally speaking, you're wrong there as well. My morals would be very different on several levels if I wasn't practicing my faith. I wouldn't want to be part of a religion that didn't challenge my character or try to shape me in some way. Too often people look for religion that already meets with everything they agree with and then they wonder why they don't get anything out of church when it never challenges them to become something else.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:04 PM   #48
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I honestly have no answer for you. I admit much of what I take is on faith. I have had spiritual experiences that are powerful and moving and were as life changing as a deep love or a harsh cruelty. What's interesting and disappointing is there are a number of posters on here who will tell you emphatically that what I experienced was of evil design because they're "way" is right and mine is wrong.

Spirituality is deeply personal. I cannot discount the wisdom and power I hear from Budhists who have found profound meaning in their journey's just because they don't believe Christ died for their sins. I have met many who profess to be spiritual, regularly attend church and go to meetings and seem to be shallow, petty and cruel - devoid of any growth that spiritual progression is supposed to afford.

I have wondered how some can experience these things and others cannot. I theorized perhaps God is preparing them for something else, or perhaps some of us evolved to have these experiences because it created a shared experience that bound early mankind together and afford hope in what was an incredibly bleak existence.

I don't know, SonofLeeloLang. I just know what works for me. And I completely accept and applaud that what works for me won't work for others. Even my own brand of Mormonism is different than the guy sitting in the pew next to me this Sunday. For me, this doesn't weaken my own faith, or weaken religion in general. It speaks to the universality of God's ability to touch each person in exactly the way they need to be. Perhaps God has found the best way to mold you into who you need to be is through an atheistic approach.

I don't know. That's the one thing I am sure of.
Spirituality is part of humanity, imperfect as we are we can not comprehend all that we are and all that the world around us is. This failure of comprehension is spirituality, when we glimpse that which we can not understand and wonder or dismay at the marvels.

Spirituality is as individual as aesthetics, on the most profound level we can be moved by beauty or horror, but the beauty that moves one may be lost on another.

Sadly some organizations have decided to adopt an absolutist view, and only those things and phenomena that are officially supported are acceptable and all others are evil and must be shunned. This is a sad and archaic condition that works to control and limit those who cannot and those who will not see beyond the cage they are put into - but today when development and technology continually tear down cages and break new ground, we must accept that absolutism is a thing of the past, a thing of the days when answers could not be offered to simple questions and when knowledge was isolated in ivory towers.

At the end of the day, the truths we all need to know and accept are that we are all human and we are all capable of causing great joy and sadness, both to those we know and those we don't. You should never be ashamed of who you are and you should accept that if someone does not accept you it is their failing, not yours and when you fail to accept someone else it is because your failing not theirs.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:19 PM   #49
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I totally disagree. The Aztecs had a religion that sacrificed humans to the sun god. There are tribes that eat their enemies because of the beliefs of how consuming your enemy can help you. You say there are "basic human values" and even try and even suggest there is anthropological evidence for such values when the evidence is completely the opposite. People torture, enslave, murder and even eat each other. They commit every carnal act known. For every noble, egalitarian society you point to, I can point to multiple others had cultures and religions that fed horrific behavior. Certainly there is a symbiotic relationship between religion, culture, morals and the society that opperates beneath them, but to say that morals exist in a vaccuum is complete hogwash.

And personally speaking, you're wrong there as well. My morals would be very different on several levels if I wasn't practicing my faith. I wouldn't want to be part of a religion that didn't challenge my character or try to shape me in some way. Too often people look for religion that already meets with everything they agree with and then they wonder why they don't get anything out of church when it never challenges them to become something else.
Name me one "civilization" that has not sacrificed humans, tortured, enslaved, raped and pillaged? Name me one religion that has always existed in peace with those of other religions and those of other races. The only difference is the magnitude of atrocities committed and this is mostly limited by the availability of victims.

Name me one society where murder, theft and arson has not been punished? you mention the Aztecs, which had a court system that operated with fairly codified laws of punishment for various crimes. Murder was no less illegal to the Aztecs than it was to the Vikings, the Romans, the Japanese, Polynesians, Mohawks or than it is in Arizona. In fact the Aztecs may rank ahead of many of those societies in terms of civility as slaves in the Aztec empire had legal protection which they didn't in Rome or among the Vikings or in Alabama or Japan.

No society exists or has ever existed where murder or theft is accepted - and human sacrifice whereever it has been performed has ALWAYS been performed as a religious act - in almost every society religion is in fact the ONLY way to justify taking a human life....
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
Name me one "civilization" that has not sacrificed humans, tortured, enslaved, raped and pillaged? Name me one religion that has always existed in peace with those of other religions and those of other races. The only difference is the magnitude of atrocities committed and this is mostly limited by the availability of victims.

Name me one society where murder, theft and arson has not been punished? you mention the Aztecs, which had a court system that operated with fairly codified laws of punishment for various crimes. Murder was no less illegal to the Aztecs than it was to the Vikings, the Romans, the Japanese, Polynesians, Mohawks or than it is in Arizona. In fact the Aztecs may rank ahead of many of those societies in terms of civility as slaves in the Aztec empire had legal protection which they didn't in Rome or among the Vikings or in Alabama or Japan.

No society exists or has ever existed where murder or theft is accepted - and human sacrifice whereever it has been performed has ALWAYS been performed as a religious act - in almost every society religion is in fact the ONLY way to justify taking a human life....
The Babylonians codefied law but they pretty much killed you any time you did anything wrong. It was simple but effective and had nothing to do with religion. It had to do with keeping order. Most would argue that is immoral. Not sure what point you're trying to make but it's doing more to make my point than yours. If your point is "everyone has some morals" I wouldn't disagree. I took issue with you suggesting "morals are essentially the same through time and history and aren't influenced by religion." That second point is categorically incorrect.
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