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Old 01-30-2013, 10:09 AM   #226
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Hankins will actually more than likely be there. Theres a real good chance.
And i am not advocating taking him, but sometimes you guys act like there's 180 picks before DEN makes a pick.
Theres only 27 slots in front of us, emkay guys.
You're right, Hankins deserves a much closer look.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:12 AM   #227
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So you guys want to draft a DE and move Wolfe inside? How would that work with Von?

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Old 01-30-2013, 10:29 AM   #228
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So you guys want to draft a DE and move Wolfe inside? How would that work with Von?
If the DE has the size, technique, and ability to set the edge, stop the run, and generate pressure. Would need to be a 3-4 DE.. Someone like Hunt or Jones, or a later round prospect like Gholston.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:35 AM   #229
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You're right, Hankins deserves a much closer look.
This is a more brief response so I'll quote this one.. Tony Carter did nothing on the play. But.. Moore does not loose blame because Carter was lost. Moore misjudged the ball, had horrible technique from the start of the play, and let a player get behind him, the ultimate no no on such a play.

But his bad technique showed the entire season.. Not just one play.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:38 AM   #230
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If the DE has the size, technique, and ability to set the edge, stop the run, and generate pressure. Would need to be a 3-4 DE.. Someone like Hunt or Jones, or a later round prospect like Gholston.
So, you want another Wolfe. Got it.

Not sure I want to move Wolfe inside.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:39 AM   #231
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If the DE has the size, technique, and ability to set the edge, stop the run, and generate pressure. Would need to be a 3-4 DE.. Someone like Hunt or Jones, or a later round prospect like Gholston.
I feel like we already play a 3-4, with one OLB (Doom) always on the line. I think Wolfe (provided he continues to improve) is perfect for the role he's currently in.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:39 AM   #232
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This is a more brief response so I'll quote this one.. Tony Carter did nothing on the play. But.. Moore does not loose blame because Carter was lost. Moore misjudged the ball, had horrible technique from the start of the play, and let a player get behind him, the ultimate no no on such a play.

But his bad technique showed the entire season.. Not just one play.
This would indicate otherwise.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...owed-safeties/
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:40 AM   #233
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If the DE has the size, technique, and ability to set the edge, stop the run, and generate pressure. Would need to be a 3-4 DE.. Someone like Hunt or Jones, or a later round prospect like Gholston.
I think guys like Gholston and Taylor (good fits for that role, would not consider Jones to do it and Hunt is all fluff) in the fourth round or so would be viable options in regards to what some are suggesting. Plenty of length and good size right now with the frame to get bigger. David Bass out of Missouri Western State looks incredible, but I have never seen him play.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:42 AM   #234
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So you guys want to draft a DE and move Wolfe inside? How would that work with Von?
Simple you draft a 3-4 DE. That is why I suggest draft Bennie Logan from LSU 6'5 295 pound DE that is big like Wolfe and is projected to run FASTER then Wolfe. Or a guy like Hunt that has the room to get bigger. That continues to give you flexibility like we did with Bannan and Unrein but with better players and still give us the bigger guys to protect Miller.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:46 AM   #235
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I feel like we already play a 3-4, with one OLB (Doom) always on the line. I think Wolfe (provided he continues to improve) is perfect for the role he's currently in.
According to some all off Wolfe's sacks came with him at DT. If that is the case he would be better at DT with someone else doing the dirty work at DE.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:46 AM   #236
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Simple you draft a 3-4 DE. That is why I suggest draft Bennie Logan from LSU 6'5 295 pound DE that is big like Wolfe and is projected to run FASTER then Wolfe. Or a guy like Hunt that has the room to get bigger. That continues to give you flexibility like we did with Bannan and Unrein but with better players and still give us the bigger guys to protect Miller.
So you are wanting to run a 3-4 basically. I have no problem with that, concerned about Woodyard playing ILB but I'll leave that up to JDR, but what about all the preseason talk of Hunter playing at DE? Was that JDR expressing his preferred defense (changing to what we played due to injuries)?
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:47 AM   #237
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People hating on Moore are retarded.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:49 AM   #238
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If the DE has the size, technique, and ability to set the edge, stop the run, and generate pressure. Would need to be a 3-4 DE.. Someone like Hunt or Jones, or a later round prospect like Gholston.
Hunt is not the playmaker yet to draft in the first round. Dude is the epitomy of the Boom or bust pick, and I do NOT take the opportunity cost of drafting him with 28.

Jones on the other hand, may not be there. If he is, then I would absolutely pull the trigger. JDR can change the fronts to accomodate that type of Dominant up the field Athlete at LDE. You can never have enough of that type of DL or front seven player on a defense. It just increases the number of one on one matchups for the pass rushers.

Have not seen enough of Gholston to comment.

The other guy who could fit would be Okafor, but I HATE Texas DL as anyone here can tell you. I never buy there production as they have failed to place one significant DL in the league since Casey Hampton. The did have Brian Orakpo, however he is OLB technically and I did give him an exemption coming out after watching his film.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:59 AM   #239
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So you are wanting to run a 3-4 basically. I have no problem with that, concerned about Woodyard playing ILB but I'll leave that up to JDR, but what about all the preseason talk of Hunter playing at DE? Was that JDR expressing his preferred defense (changing to what we played due to injuries)?
We basically did that last year with the 5-2 looks when Miller played the line and Doom was lined up in the 9 wide spot on the other end.

As for Hunter I have no idea. Others suggested he was only starting because Wolfe getting up to speed. With the success of the way ran the team this past season I don't see us using a DE smaller then 280.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:03 AM   #240
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Hunt is not the playmaker yet to draft in the first round. Dude is the epitomy of the Boom or bust pick, and I do NOT take the opportunity cost of drafting him with 28.

Jones on the other hand, may not be there. If he is, then I would absolutely pull the trigger. JDR can change the fronts to accomodate that type of Dominant up the field Athlete at LDE. You can never have enough of that type of DL or front seven player on a defense. It just increases the number of one on one matchups for the pass rushers.

Have not seen enough of Gholston to comment.

The other guy who could fit would be Okafor, but I HATE Texas DL as anyone here can tell you. I never buy there production as they have failed to place one significant DL in the league since Casey Hampton. The did have Brian Orakpo, however he is OLB technically and I did give him an exemption coming out after watching his film.
Datone Jones? Yes sign me up.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:09 AM   #241
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People hating on Moore are retarded.
So I am retarted to say his play didn't impress me..? And that the position could be upgraded..

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Old 01-30-2013, 11:10 AM   #242
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People hating on Moore are retarded.
Dude, then I am massively Stupid

Moore did not have poor stats on the year, no one disputes that. However, the WHY is not that he played good enough to earn those stats. Teams attacked DEN underneath for most of the year as they feared a lethal pass rush and Moore played a ton of the deep safety. The guy who really got picked on was Mike Adams as you can plainly see in that article, because he drew the man under assignments that teams attacked. If Moore was all that and a bag of chips in coverage, HE would have been the guy to play the man underneath coverage like he did at UCLA.

However, there is a reason JDR let Adams play that coverage instead of the younger, quicker and more talented Moore. Moore has absolutely terrible instincts playing man coverage and has really poor technique when he has to flip and run. There is no way a DC with JDR's chops allows Adams to get beaten like a drum if Moore is the better cover player. These guys watch 30-40 hours of film a week for goodness sake and would make the adjustments.

What happened in the Playoffs versus BAL, was Caldwell figured out how to block the pass rush and expose Moore and the rest of the secondary with the deep ball from Flacco. That is Flacco's best Weapon. He is just average with the short and intermediate throws.

Moore's absolutely terrible technique, and awful preparation for the long balls got exposed and that is Why Milus was fired. He failed to clean up the safety's execution on very simple deep coverages. Just because other teams failed to have the right OL to exploit those weaknesses, does not make Moore a credible FS in coverage.

Now, is Moore a terrible FS. NO. Should they immediately replace him? NO. However, someone should be drafted to challenge his ass and put pressure on him to fix his poor technique and sloppy preparation mentally. Kid has talent, but so did Taylor Mays and he is twice the athlete Moore will ever be.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:12 AM   #243
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@ Rascal and Hef, I gave examples as to the type of replacement we would need to put at SDE to fill that role, yet somehow I'm being perceived as someone who wants to draft a DE? Funny cause I have been a big advocate of Wolfe staying put in this scheme, I referred to him as the Peanut Butter to Von's Jelly. But now apparently I want another Wolfe..?
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:23 AM   #244
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I just went back and checked my notes on Moore coming out in college, and he DID NOT play the slot WR or TE in man coverage underneath in college either. I had needs better instincts and needs to clean up Man coverage technique to impact at the next level as a FS.

So far, not so good. 2 years as a FS and still not anywhere near a playmaker. I really do not understand why people defend him to this point. Kid is a classic underachiever with a ton of talent and no brain. You would think he would have at least corrected his physical technique by now.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:58 AM   #245
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So you guys want to draft a DE and move Wolfe inside? How would that work with Von?
I want the Broncos to draft BPA at all times.

However, a true impact strongside 4-3 DE who can start immediately (Montgomery...not Alex Okafor or Dion Jordan) and move Wolfe inside (replacing Bannan) would benefit the Defense greatly, if he is available at #28. Von will play the same role he's always played.

How would that benefit the Broncos?
1. It would enable the Broncos to have true ability to rush the passer in the Base 4-3 Defense (something they can't do now).
2. Instead of substituting half the line in obvious pass-rushing situations...only Vickerson would be replaced (by an extra DB). Decreasing confusion.
3. It would give the Broncos more edge contain against the run (which they have problems with now, especially in Nickel). Dumervil isn't good against the run, and Wolfe (though he does a good job) does not penetrate as far up the field on the outside as is necessary sometimes.
4. Wolfe is much better attacking OG's and C's, than he is at attacking OT's (who are superior blockers). A true impact 4-3 DE is necessary to get off the block of a good NFL OT.
5. Contrary to what some have suggested, Von Miller does not need the 'protection' of Derek Wolfe. What Von Miller needs is either an impact NT who truly deserves a double-team (not Vickerson), or another pass-rush threat who can play all over the formation (Montgomery)...enabling Von to really become a wildcard, and not just be singled out every snap for a double-team.
6. If either Dumervil, or Miller were to be injured...the Broncos Defense becomes very beatable.
7. Adding someone like Montgomery enables each Defensive Lineman (including Miller) to do what they do best no matter the formation.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:08 PM   #246
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I just went back and checked my notes on Moore coming out in college, and he DID NOT play the slot WR or TE in man coverage underneath in college either. I had needs better instincts and needs to clean up Man coverage technique to impact at the next level as a FS.

So far, not so good. 2 years as a FS and still not anywhere near a playmaker. I really do not understand why people defend him to this point. Kid is a classic underachiever with a ton of talent and no brain. You would think he would have at least corrected his physical technique by now.
I just believe he can get better and hope he will. He has demonstrated that in parts of his game, but as you said mentally he isn't getting it. There are obvious issues there, but he was not a player I saw consistently getting beat in assingments on a regular basis on this team, nor the worst defender in our secondary. He is not a Pro-Bowl player and he isn't dogcrap. He is just going to turn 23 and should be given another shot to prove himself.

He should have stayed in college for one more year at UCLA to refine his game. There definitely needs to be a challenging prospect or veteran with him next season, but Denver needed that anyways. I don't think you are hating on him either. You have been nothing but objective -- but some people have advocated that we need to get rid of him completely. Crazy talk!

IMHO, that doesn't make sense. It wouldn't be an addition by subtraction situation. We need a talent infusion at safety. I am hopeful that Carter can come back from his microfracture surgery and that Denver re-signs Bruton for special teams duty. I am not sure they bring back Jim Leonhard, but I see nothing wrong with it if they do. At the very least, we need a starting level caliber player to go for either FS or SS for the future. Adams is never going to be a long-term guy here and what we have elsewhere are situational or role players. I just want more competition at a spot that is obviously mediocre.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:20 PM   #247
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This is a more brief response so I'll quote this one.. Tony Carter did nothing on the play. But.. Moore does not loose blame because Carter was lost. Moore misjudged the ball, had horrible technique from the start of the play, and let a player get behind him, the ultimate no no on such a play.

But his bad technique showed the entire season.. Not just one play.
No, Moore does not lose blame...however. Moore did not screw up from lack of trying. He screwed up because he keyed underneath for too long, than went for the INT. He played the ball wrong by 6 inches (which can be fixed). Carter didn't try to do anything at any point during the play...and I've seen him do that exact same thing several times throughout the season.

The Broncos need a lot of things, and leadership from the Safety position is one of them. That being said, Rahim Moore is the best Safety on the Broncos roster. I'm willing to give him another year, but wouldn't be adverse to drafting a Safety *IF* they are the BPA at that pick (to replace Adams). That could be in the 2nd round with a guy like Jonathan Cyprien or Phillip Thomas. However, I think upgrading the CB position (either via draft, or FA) should be higher on the list than drafting another 2nd round Safety. The draft is deep in 2nd round CB's, and the Broncos need an infusion of talent at that position. Tracy Porter will be gone, Champ is slowing down, and Tony Carter is in my doghouse...not to mention MLB, where Med pointed out Chase Thomas as a viable 2nd round pick. Too many needs, too few picks.

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Old 01-30-2013, 01:04 PM   #248
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No, Moore does not lose blame...however. Moore did not screw up from lack of trying. He screwed up because he keyed underneath for too long, than went for the INT. He played the ball wrong by 6 inches (which can be fixed). Carter didn't try to do anything at any point during the play...and I've seen him do that exact same thing several times throughout the season.

The Broncos need a lot of things, and leadership from the Safety position is one of them. That being said, Rahim Moore is the best Safety on the Broncos roster. I'm willing to give him another year, but wouldn't be adverse to drafting a Safety *IF* they are the BPA at that pick (to replace Adams). That could be in the 2nd round with a guy like Jonathan Cyprien or Phillip Thomas. However, I think upgrading the CB position (either via draft, or FA) should be higher on the list than drafting another 2nd round Safety. The draft is deep in 2nd round CB's, and the Broncos need an infusion of talent at that position. Tracy Porter will be gone, Champ is slowing down, and Tony Carter is in my doghouse...not to mention MLB, where Med pointed out Chase Thomas as a viable 2nd round pick. Too many needs, too few picks.
Price I just explained Carters reaction on the main Board. You need to understand the zone relationships here to assign blame. The biggest blame goes to JDR for calling a Tampa 2 like coverage instead of quarters. Carters responsiblity there is to play underneath and to keep the catch in bounds. Watch it again, he does just that. He looks like he is jogging because he can not believe Moore blew his responsibility to stay deep on that play! Watch Leonards reaction and Brutons as well.

That play was not an anomaly though. It happened exactly like that earlier in the season, but everyone gave Moore a pass because the other team did not catch the ball. Carter is not a great CB, but he was not the problem on that play....
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:21 PM   #249
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Price I just explained Carters reaction on the main Board. You need to understand the zone relationships here to assign blame. The biggest blame goes to JDR for calling a Tampa 2 like coverage instead of quarters. Carters responsiblity there is to play underneath and to keep the catch in bounds. Watch it again, he does just that. He looks like he is jogging because he can not believe Moore blew his responsibility to stay deep on that play! Watch Leonards reaction and Brutons as well.

That play was not an anomaly though. It happened exactly like that earlier in the season, but everyone gave Moore a pass because the other team did not catch the ball. Carter is not a great CB, but he was not the problem on that play....
I read your post earlier, and I read the whole IAOFM breakdown but then this came out in the Denver Post today...

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"Carter, lined up 6 yards off Jones at the snap, was supposed to "jam" Jones before the receiver got through the 5-yard contact zone in order to keep Jones from sprinting up the sideline. If no receiver was in the flat in the shorter area near the sideline Carter was supposed to follow Jones up the sideline after the jam. He did neither."


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...s-nfl-playoffs
Originally posted in the "Nit-Picking Tony Carter" thread. Not sure what to believe, but I do know the play call wasn't to just half-assedly jog 5-yards behind the receiver, then stop and walk while he catches the ball. Champ was on the other side of the field, and didn't play his WR that way.

Here's IAOFM's picture:

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Old 01-30-2013, 01:35 PM   #250
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Moore made a play on the ball for the INT, but it floated..he was about a yard too shallow. Carter was dreaming of battling the White Witch in Narnia.
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