The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion > NFL Draft Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-29-2013, 10:26 AM   #176
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

I can't believe people are willing to throw away Rahim Moore and draft another 2nd round Safety (like Phillip Thomas, who is older than Rahim) for one bad play. How many Safeties have the Broncos gone through in the last 5 years? How many Defensive Coordinators? Is it realistic that Fox and Elway would do that? Doubtful.

If you're talking about upgrading Mike Adams, that's fine...although he had a good year, and played well. The problem is guarding TE's. Elam won't be there at the Broncos pick in the 2nd round, and I wouldn't expect Cyprien to come in and play better than Mike Adams.

There are NO Safeties that will be available at #28, that are even close to the 28th best player in the draft, so drafting a Safety at #28 would be a major reach. #1 CB's are FAR more valuable than reaching on a Safety in the 1st round. If there is one available (not sure if Johnthan Banks or Jordan Poyer are that guy), you would pick the #1 CB without question.
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 10:49 AM   #177
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

This is not related to the Senior Bowl, but it is draft related.

If there is an elite pass rusher, a franchise LT, a defensive leader, or a true #1 CB available at #28, you pick him. As everybody knows, you always try to pick the BPA (at least BPA at a position of need). We don't know who that guy will be yet, but we can make an educated guess based on what we know so far

Elite pass rusher - Sam Montgomery - gives the Broncos true ability to rush the passer AND stop the run from the closed end position...allowing Wolfe to move inside where he is most effective. Drafting Montgomery would truly give the Broncos the ability to generate pressure with a 4 man rush. If Montgomery is within striking distance you need to get him.

Franchise LT - Lane Johnson or D.J. Fluker - Lane Johnson probably won't be available after his stellar performance at the Senior Bowl. Is Fluker a franchise LT? I don't know, but if he is available...take him and save yourself $10M which you can't afford.

Defensive Leader - Manti Te'o or Kevin Minter - both prospects seem to have fallen out of the top 32 in the last couple weeks. If either is available at #28 (and Montgomery or a franchise LT are gone) I would be surprised if the Broncos passed.

#1 CB - Johnthan Banks or Jordan Poyer - is either one of these guys truly a #1 CB? They have great ball skills, but are they fast enough to keep up with elite WR's? We will have to see how fast they run at the combine for me to truly give them consideration at #28.

Last edited by pricejj; 01-29-2013 at 11:00 AM..
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:02 AM   #178
Mediator12
OM analyst
 
Mediator12's Avatar
 
Roby AND Latimer?Who the Hell Knew?

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: INDY
Posts: 10,130

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
I can't believe people are willing to throw away Rahim Moore and draft another 2nd round Safety (like Phillip Thomas, who is older than Rahim) for one bad play. How many Safeties have the Broncos gone through in the last 5 years? How many Defensive Coordinators? Is it realistic that Fox and Elway would do that? Doubtful.

If you're talking about upgrading Mike Adams, that's fine...although he had a good year, and played well. The problem is guarding TE's. Elam won't be there at the Broncos pick in the 2nd round, and I wouldn't expect Cyprien to come in and play better than Mike Adams.

There are NO Safeties that will be available at #28, that are even close to the 28th best player in the draft, so drafting a Safety at #28 would be a major reach. #1 CB's are FAR more valuable than reaching on a Safety in the 1st round. If there is one available (not sure if Johnthan Banks or Jordan Poyer are that guy), you would pick the #1 CB without question.
I do not think you jetison Rahim Moore like trash brother, they have a lot invested in him. However, I also want to address the position to keep Rahim honest in the offseason, because he did not improve his pass coverage techniques last year at all, and he needs to be properly motivated to improve. He has all the physical elements, but playing safety at this level is all about being mentally superior and diagnosing situational and individual tendencies of teams. The great safeties are not just good athletes, the Reed, Polamalu, Berry, and Thomas's of the Elite are world class play diagnosers. This is the most important thing Moore lacks at this point, outside of someone cleaning up his footwork and decision making skills in pass coverage.

What I would readily advocate, is there are a TON of solid CB conversion to FS players in this draft that could also come in and play Nickel CB/Big nickle type. I have already eliminated 5 potential CB's as much better FS prospects. One of these in the middle rounds like 4-5 would be a much better option than another early safety IMHO.

As far as getting a First round CB at 28, I doubt one of the Elite guys will be there. However, the second tier is HUGE this year and we could get one at 57 IMHO. If one is there and they are BPA I would be OK with that, but at this point I sincerely doubt that will occur.

I also think we could get a real solid MIKE in the 3-4 round range. I will say this, the Positions of need are looking real deep for DEN this year. They could be lined up to catch dropping value at their draft spot and still fill the needs. It's still too early to be sure, but I like the class for what I perceive to be their needs.
Mediator12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:22 AM   #179
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Med don't waste your time. We both feel the same way about Moore and were vocal about it after the Falcons loss. People seem to think because he cleaned up form tackling, that he has the mental make up of a talented FS. Don't waste your time with someone who doesn't know how or what to evaluate when watching players.

His technique is terrible, and we could go on and on about what he lacks and it's not all predicated from one beyond horrible play.

Phillip Thomas would not be a wasted pick, he is physical and has good abilities in coverage, so I will ask again, where would you project him FS or SS?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:32 AM   #180
ludo21
RIP Darrent Williams
 
ludo21's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 20,059

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Paul Ernster
Default

BPA BPA BPA!!
ludo21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:51 AM   #181
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediator12 View Post
I do not think you jetison Rahim Moore like trash brother, they have a lot invested in him. However, I also want to address the position to keep Rahim honest in the offseason, because he did not improve his pass coverage techniques last year at all, and he needs to be properly motivated to improve. He has all the physical elements, but playing safety at this level is all about being mentally superior and diagnosing situational and individual tendencies of teams. The great safeties are not just good athletes, the Reed, Polamalu, Berry, and Thomas's of the Elite are world class play diagnosers. This is the most important thing Moore lacks at this point, outside of someone cleaning up his footwork and decision making skills in pass coverage.

What I would readily advocate, is there are a TON of solid CB conversion to FS players in this draft that could also come in and play Nickel CB/Big nickle type. I have already eliminated 5 potential CB's as much better FS prospects. One of these in the middle rounds like 4-5 would be a much better option than another early safety IMHO.

As far as getting a First round CB at 28, I doubt one of the Elite guys will be there. However, the second tier is HUGE this year and we could get one at 57 IMHO. If one is there and they are BPA I would be OK with that, but at this point I sincerely doubt that will occur.

I also think we could get a real solid MIKE in the 3-4 round range. I will say this, the Positions of need are looking real deep for DEN this year. They could be lined up to catch dropping value at their draft spot and still fill the needs. It's still too early to be sure, but I like the class for what I perceive to be their needs.
Great post. I know you're not quite through your analysis, but drop a couple names that would be ripe for a CB to Safety conversion. Would JDR/Fox be savvy enough to do this? Remember just how conservative they are.

I agree that this is shaping up to be a great 2nd round for DB's. Either a CB-conversion or Safety can be had at #56. It's an extremely deep class for guys who are not elite (2nd round guys), but can definitely be major players with proper development.

Regarding MIKE: I think all the impact players will be gone by the Broncos pick in the 3rd round...which makes nailing the top two picks even more important. I think Manti Te'o is a Pro Bowler. Kevin Minter will definitely be a solid starter and could play at a Pro Bowl level. Chase Thomas is a truly intriguing prospect as a 2nd rounder (thanks for bringing him up in an earlier post). Outside of them, I would take a flyer on Reddick in round 3, but would consider myself lucky if he could overcome his missed-tackle flaw. So while I agree that LB is deep this year, it takes a truly special player to be an impact 4-3 MIKE in the NFL...in this draft there are only three sure-fire bets of LB's that have enough bulk, skill, and leadership to play NFL MIKE: Manti Te'o, Kevin Minter, and Chase Thomas (who would be the ultimate steal at the end of round 2).

Maybe a draft with Sam Montgomery or D.J. Fluker (#28), Chase Thomas (#56), and Jonathan Cyprien (#84) would be right up our alley...while picking up a WR in the 4th, and a kicker late.
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:55 AM   #182
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 24,365

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediator12 View Post
What I would readily advocate, is there are a TON of solid CB conversion to FS players in this draft that could also come in and play Nickel CB/Big nickle type. I have already eliminated 5 potential CB's as much better FS prospects. One of these in the middle rounds like 4-5 would be a much better option than another early safety IMHO.
Who would those players be? My guess on three:

David Amerson
Sanders Commings
Blidi Wreh-Wilson

Am I close?
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:59 AM   #183
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmore Manning View Post
His technique is terrible, and we could go on and on about what he lacks and it's not all predicated from one beyond horrible play.

Phillip Thomas would not be a wasted pick, he is physical and has good abilities in coverage, so I will ask again, where would you project him FS or SS?
Lulz.

Good luck with your name calling. I guarantee you if Rahim Moore tipped that ball incomplete you wouldn't even be mentioning Free Safety.
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:00 PM   #184
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 56,054

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

In defense of Rahim, I suppose you could always bring up that it was a safety named Troy Polamalu who played up for the run and let DT get behind him in a playoff, OT situation.
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:01 PM   #185
DBroncos4life
Hey pic Mod!?!?! FU
 
DBroncos4life's Avatar
 
Bacon bits

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The wrong side of right.
Posts: 28,794

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Julius "Fluff"
Default

Price man we are not drafting a smaller DE to replace Wolfe. We will have big bodies on the DL.

Sheldon Richardson, Kawann Short, and Sharrif Floyd fit that role IMO.
DBroncos4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:03 PM   #186
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
Lulz.

Good luck with your name calling. I guarantee you if Rahim Moore tipped that ball incomplete you wouldn't even be mentioning Free Safety.
Name calling?

Yeah Price I was just blown away by his great play all season.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:04 PM   #187
Bmore Manning
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
In defense of Rahim, I suppose you could always bring up that it was a safety named Troy Polamalu who played up for the run and let DT get behind him in a playoff, OT situation.
And how is that remotely similar?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:14 PM   #188
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 24,365

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

William Gholston and Devin Taylor are two DE (that aren't top tier guys) who I would like to see the Broncos consider. Don't be scared of William because he is Vernon's cousin. He is an absolute animal and makes a ton of plays behind the LOS. Would be a great selection for our team, IMHO.
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:16 PM   #189
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBroncos4life View Post
Price man we are not drafting a smaller DE to replace Wolfe. We will have big bodies on the DL.

Sheldon Richardson, Kawann Short, and Sharrif Floyd fit that role IMO.
Playing Wolfe at DE isn't effective, becaue he can't get any pressure on the outside pass rush. He's too slow. Wolfe needs to replace Bannan at UT...that's where he got all his sacks. If they drafted Montgomery, they could generate a pass rush with just a 4 man line...they have to be able to do that, especially since they are going to have to play 2 deep Safeties now that Champ is slowing down. The Broncos couldn't generate a pass rush with a 4 man line against the Ravens and paid for it.

It should be Dumervil, Wolfe, Vickerson, and Montgomery (or another true strongside DE) in the Base Defense. What they were doing last year was a gimmick that they had to do because Jason Hunter tore a muscle, and Wolfe was just a rookie... too inexperienced (in their opinion) to be a full-time starter on the inside.

Last edited by pricejj; 01-29-2013 at 12:19 PM..
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:19 PM   #190
DBroncos4life
Hey pic Mod!?!?! FU
 
DBroncos4life's Avatar
 
Bacon bits

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The wrong side of right.
Posts: 28,794

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Julius "Fluff"
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
Playing Wolfe at DE isn't effective, becaue he can't get any pressure on the outside pass rush. He's too slow. Wolfe needs to replace Bannan at UT...that's where he got all his sacks. If they drafted Montgomery, they could generate a pass rush with just a 4 man line...they have to be able to do that, especially since they are going to have to play 2 deep Safeties now that Champ is slowing down. The Broncos couldn't generate a pass rush with a 4 man line against the Ravens and paid for it.

It should be Dumervil, Wolfe, Vickerson, and Montgomery (or another true strongside DE) in the Base Defense.
That is not how we run our scheme, it's been talked about a number times in this thread. Montgomery won't be able to protect Miller at all.
DBroncos4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:22 PM   #191
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 24,365

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

Sam Montgomery would be a RDE in any 4-3 scheme. Lol.
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:31 PM   #192
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBroncos4life View Post
That is not how we run our scheme, it's been talked about a number times in this thread. Montgomery won't be able to protect Miller at all.
The 2012 Broncos scheme doesn't work when only rushing 4.

Bannan should not be starting at UT, he should be a backup. Wolfe sucks at DE. Maybe they will just bring Hunter back at DE, but I wouldn't count on him.

The only way to "protect" Miller is to have other guys who can actually pass-rush (not Bannan or Vickerson). Montgomery would be perfect, and would enable the Broncos to get rid of their gimmick Defense.
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:33 PM   #193
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 24,365

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:35 PM   #194
Rascal
RIP
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,278

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Turf
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmore Manning View Post
Med don't waste your time. We both feel the same way about Moore and were vocal about it after the Falcons loss. People seem to think because he cleaned up form tackling, that he has the mental make up of a talented FS. Don't waste your time with someone who doesn't know how or what to evaluate when watching players.
His technique is terrible, and we could go on and on about what he lacks and it's not all predicated from one beyond horrible play.

Phillip Thomas would not be a wasted pick, he is physical and has good abilities in coverage, so I will ask again, where would you project him FS or SS?
It is posts like this why people don't like you. You come off as a condenscending a-hole, and nobody likes that.

If you have an opinion of a player fine, back it up and present your opinion. Just because somebody disagrees with you is asinine to talk like that. Everybody as an a-hole, some are just bigger. And apparently yours is bigger. Bigger is not better.
Rascal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:40 PM   #195
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
Sam Montgomery would be a RDE in any 4-3 scheme. Lol.
I picture him as a Justin Tuck/Alfred Williams type...he has perfect size and pass-rushability to play RDE.

Chandler Jones should be playing LDE too.

Montgomery and Dumervil could be the bookends. Wolfe is a perfect UT, and we'll just have to make due with Vickerson at NT (who did a fine job stopping the run in 2012).
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:40 PM   #196
DBroncos4life
Hey pic Mod!?!?! FU
 
DBroncos4life's Avatar
 
Bacon bits

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The wrong side of right.
Posts: 28,794

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Julius "Fluff"
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
The 2012 Broncos scheme doesn't work when only rushing 4.

Bannan should not be starting at UT, he should be a backup. Wolfe sucks at DE. Maybe they will just bring Hunter back at DE, but I wouldn't count on him.

The only way to "protect" Miller is to have other guys who can actually pass-rush (not Bannan or Vickerson). Montgomery would be perfect, and would enable the Broncos to get rid of their gimmick Defense.
OR follow me here we bring in ANOTHER big DE instead of a small undersized DE to keep people off Miller and still keep Wolfe inside. it's not a gimmick defense it's what the damn Ravens ran.
DBroncos4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #197
Requiem
~~~
 
Requiem's Avatar
 
~ ~ ~

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Earth Division
Posts: 24,365

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Princes of Tara
Default

Montgomery would have to swallow a stick of dynamite the day of the draft for him to fall to our selection. New idea please.
Requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:53 PM   #198
pricejj
jungle
 
pricejj's Avatar
 
United In Orange

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 10,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBroncos4life View Post
OR follow me here we bring in ANOTHER big DE instead of a small undersized DE to keep people off Miller and still keep Wolfe inside. it's not a gimmick defense it's what the damn Ravens ran.
The Ravens ran out of the Nickel with a 4-man line, and roughed up Manning. The Broncos can't do that. They can only get pressure if they rush Von Miller on a 5 man line...which exposes them deep with a single Safety, and exposes them in the run game at times also.


Since when did 6'5" 260 lbs. become undersized for a 4-3 DE? Paul Kruger is that exact size.
pricejj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:57 PM   #199
Rascal
RIP
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,278

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Turf
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
Montgomery would have to swallow a stick of dynamite the day of the draft for him to fall to our selection. New idea please.
Somebody send the police to arrest him on some bogus charge. That should work.
Rascal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 12:58 PM   #200
Rascal
RIP
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,278

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Turf
Default

Of course, everybody is assuming that we will run the same defensive front next year.
Rascal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:00 AM.


Denver Broncos