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Old 01-22-2013, 07:11 AM   #51
Mat'hir Uth Gan
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You really got going I see. I did more then just call him by the wrong name...funny.

I said Oakfor wouldn't work in our current scheme.

I have been calling for Williams in every single instance I mention a DT, I even said I wanted Short and Williams, but I would choose Williams over Short if I could only have one. Don't take away from me!

Just bustin' your balls a bit. You do a fine job discussing draft prospects. I might not always agree 100%, but I definitely always appreciate the time and effort you put into the discussion.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:44 AM   #52
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That's for DEs. DTs are a different story and it helps to have shorter arms because it's a power game. 32 inch arms is not short for a DT.
I disagree on this point MUG....Paea got knocked for his "short arms" a couple years ago (32")...that's when I started thinking alot about it. When it comes to Defensive Lineman, it's all about beating an Offensive Linemane one-on-one. This comes down to:


1. Athleticism - For both DT's and DE's athleticsm is a combination of foot speed (3-cone, forty), strength (bench press), and vert. The Defensive Lineman has to be faster, and stronger than the Offensive Lineman he faces...or else he will rarely win a on-on-one matchup. I look for fast 3-cones, and DT's who can push up 225 lbs. more than 30 times. A forty about 5.0 is good, and at least an average vert for his position group.

2. Physical Dimensions - Arm length is very important for a DT, moreso than for a DE. Whereas a good DE has the footspeed to run around an Offensive tackle, or juke, spin move...a DT is heftier and generally has less footspeed. With longer arms a DT can prevent himself from being controlled out of the play by an Offensive Lineman. A DT with good height (~6'5") can hold more mass than a shorter guy without it affecting his athleticism. It's like a boxing match, where a taller opponent with longer arms will beat a short, short-armed opponent every time (Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson, Klitscko bro's). Short-armed DT's are rarely stand-out players in the NFL.

3. Effort - This is self-explanatory. A superior DT will have a variety of moves, great hand-fighting skills, and show consistent effort on every play. A player who takes plays off (for whatever reason), won't have as much production as he should. Production is a very important factor when I look at DT's. Have they consistently produced at the college level? Have they shown improvement every year, or have they leveled off?

In conclusion, having longer arms benefits a DT, while having shorter arms (32") is not optimal. NFL scouts will definitely knock a guy down at least 10-15 spots for having 32" arms (Stephen Paea, Mike Martin).
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:59 AM   #53
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Anyone else pissed the top 20 athletes in this draft who are Senior Bowl eligible are not playing?

The highest rated guy out there is Ansah and he HAS to be there not having enough playing experience. Then its maybe Eric Fisher whop also has competition level concerns and HAS to be there.

A lot of the OL and DL are also not showing up like in years past. WTF

I hate to see kids being stupid and not competing.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:00 AM   #54
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Don't worry about Minter rising IMO it's good riddance. I saw some of his play in a few games this year he impressed me as much as Te'o did. Which was not at all.

I've learned not to buy into the hype the so called experts put out about players. I got burned bad on Aaaron Curry a couple of years ago.
I'm just sick of the Broncos losing value in the draft by trading down. It was worse with Xanders (one year we lost the equivalent of a 2nd round draft pick)...but it seems like Elway, Fox, and Matt Russell continue to do the same thing. This is a deep team, late round draft picks will have trouble making it...there just aren't enough spots. I would much rather the Bronco give up a 4th to trade up into the high 20's to get their guy...than trading down into the 2nd round for a marginal player. I wanted Wolfe last year, so I'm glad they picked him...wouldn't count on them striking gold twice. Like I said, they need starters, not back-ups. They got lucky with Wolfe because he played for Cincinatti...but other teams were hot on his trail (NE, Pitt, Balt).

As far as Minter goes...I get your point. He's not the flashiest player in the world, or the most fiery leader. I would rather restructure DJ. However, Minter gets the job done, and had to work with a brand new LB corps on the LSU Defense this year. They never won the big game, but Minter finished the year with 130 tackles, rarely whiffed, and generally played well. At first glance, I didn't like him...but if you take a closer look, he's actually one of the better MLB prospects to come out over the last 5 years. If he runs less than 4.65 at the combine, I wouldn't mind if the Broncos drafted him...but a lot depends on DJ's situation. The other guy would be Reddick...a somewhat raw playmaker who has issues with whiffs that may or may not be able to be corrected. If Te'o cannot run in the 4.6's I would be surprised to see him go in the top 25, which is what I've been saying here for a few months.

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Old 01-22-2013, 09:14 AM   #55
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I disagree on this point MUG....Paea got knocked for his "short arms" a couple years ago (32")...that's when I started thinking alot about it. When it comes to Defensive Lineman, it's all about beating an Offensive Linemane one-on-one. This comes down to:


1. Athleticism - For both DT's and DE's athleticsm is a combination of foot speed (3-cone, forty), strength (bench press), and vert. The Defensive Lineman has to be faster, and stronger than the Offensive Lineman he faces...or else he will rarely win a on-on-one matchup. I look for fast 3-cones, and DT's who can push up 225 lbs. more than 30 times. A forty about 5.0 is good, and at least an average vert for his position group.

2. Physical Dimensions - Arm length is very important for a DT, moreso than for a DE. Whereas a good DE has the footspeed to run around an Offensive tackle, or juke, spin move...a DT is heftier and generally has less footspeed. With longer arms a DT can prevent himself from being controlled out of the play by an Offensive Lineman. A DT with good height (~6'5") can hold more mass than a shorter guy without it affecting his athleticism. It's like a boxing match, where a taller opponent with longer arms will beat a short, short-armed opponent every time (Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson, Klitscko bro's). Short-armed DT's are rarely stand-out players in the NFL.

3. Effort - This is self-explanatory. A superior DT will have a variety of moves, great hand-fighting skills, and show consistent effort on every play. A player who takes plays off (for whatever reason), won't have as much production as he should. Production is a very important factor when I look at DT's. Have they consistently produced at the college level? Have they shown improvement every year, or have they leveled off?

In conclusion, having longer arms benefits a DT, while having shorter arms (32") is not optimal. NFL scouts will definitely knock a guy down at least 10-15 spots for having 32" arms (Stephen Paea, Mike Martin).
Do me a favor though, do not place your opinion so much on physical assets. Way too many people uses the objective physical measures as a place to start in the evaluation process. You care way too much about arm length because some evaluators think it actually matters technique wise. In the trenches, its all about mentality. In fact, at the professional level, its all about mentality.

It is not simply good enough to be physically gifted, you have to apply that gift on the field. The best predictor of future performance is simply past performance. If the player could not win in college, he is not going to suddenly develop in the pros.

Case in point is your fascination with defending Rahim Moore. You keep saying he improved dramatically this year as a FS, when he really only improved as a tackler. And even then, he had some real headscratcher moments as the season went on.

He is not a good deep coverage safety right now after 2 full seasons in the NFL, because he has never learned the right technique to play the deep ball. People could not get the ball deep on DEN for most of the year because they feared the pass rush. However, he still had some real poor technique on film when you watch him. He does not do the little things right and occasionally, he does everything wrong like he did in the Playoff game with his total disregard of how to play that situation.

Moore has all the physical tools to play Safety at this level, but he has a real poor mentality and I am not comfortable at all having him play FS. It is not like he makes up for those errors with big plays.

Go deeper with your evaluations. Watch them execute technique in big games if you can. See if they show up when it matters, and not just dominate stats against lesser competition.

In know you care about the draft and I know you spend a ton of time on it. Just try and go deeper please. In the end, its all you can really do to be original in your asessements.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #56
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Anyone else pissed the top 20 athletes in this draft who are Senior Bowl eligible are not playing?

The highest rated guy out there is Ansah and he HAS to be there not having enough playing experience. Then its maybe Eric Fisher whop also has competition level concerns and HAS to be there.

A lot of the OL and DL are also not showing up like in years past. WTF

I hate to see kids being stupid and not competing.
While I agree with you, we do get to see some of the lower guys from smaller schools get more playing time.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:48 AM   #57
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Do me a favor though, do not place your opinion so much on physical assets. Way too many people uses the objective physical measures as a place to start in the evaluation process. You care way too much about arm length because some evaluators think it actually matters technique wise. In the trenches, its all about mentality. In fact, at the professional level, its all about mentality.

It is not simply good enough to be physically gifted, you have to apply that gift on the field. The best predictor of future performance is simply past performance. If the player could not win in college, he is not going to suddenly develop in the pros.

Case in point is your fascination with defending Rahim Moore. You keep saying he improved dramatically this year as a FS, when he really only improved as a tackler. And even then, he had some real headscratcher moments as the season went on.

He is not a good deep coverage safety right now after 2 full seasons in the NFL, because he has never learned the right technique to play the deep ball. People could not get the ball deep on DEN for most of the year because they feared the pass rush. However, he still had some real poor technique on film when you watch him. He does not do the little things right and occasionally, he does everything wrong like he did in the Playoff game with his total disregard of how to play that situation.

Moore has all the physical tools to play Safety at this level, but he has a real poor mentality and I am not comfortable at all having him play FS. It is not like he makes up for those errors with big plays.

Go deeper with your evaluations. Watch them execute technique in big games if you can. See if they show up when it matters, and not just dominate stats against lesser competition.

In know you care about the draft and I know you spend a ton of time on it. Just try and go deeper please. In the end, its all you can really do to be original in your asessements.
In the end, my main emphasis in player evaluation is based on past production. Arm length is actually the last thing I look at (after production, after the visual test, and after other physical measurables)...it is, however, an important part of the evaluation process that cannot be ignored.

There are two reason's why I have defended Moore (though not as defiantly as you would suggest):

1. He's only 22
2. He showed dramatic improvement in 12 months

While I agree, the Broncos need a playmaker at Safety, it would hurt to throw away such a high draft pick so quickly. If the Broncos chose Matt Elam, and moved Mike Adams to FS, I would be perfectly fine with that. I have been advocating moving Champ to SS, because I am concerned about the teams ability to stop TE's and their ability to stop the run out of Nickel personnel (according to recent news...that's not happening this offseason).

In fact, drafting a Safety may be the single most impactful thing that the FO can do to improve this team in the offseason. I do not watch 1/100 of the film that you and other's on this board do. Nor am I privy to what goes on behind the coaches doors in Dove Valley. I do however, know a couple things:

1. John Fox said that Champ would NOT be moving to Safety this offseason.
2. The team must make a decision on DJ Williams before the draft.

This indicates the probability of a couple things to me:
1. The Broncos likely won't be picking a CB in round 1.
2. It's somewhat likely that picking a 1st round MLB will be ruled out before the draft.

If that's the case, the next highest area of concern is Safety...and this draft is deep in them. Matt Elam or Eric Reid (in that order) would be right up our alley.

I could live with wasting the #36 overall pick in 2011...but it would hurt.

Another thing, regarding my generic evaluations...the reality is, I haven't had time to evaluate everyone in the draft, nor do I intend to. I also don't watch much NFL Football other than the Broncos. While you may know the ins and outs of all top 100 prospects in the draft by now, I'll pick out a few guys I want the Broncos to draft (based on my criteria...not someone else's) as we approach the draft. After all, it's only January. However, I do like to join in the discussion...even though I am fairly uninformed compared to you and some other posters (at this point in the process). I don't purchase the All-22 video, but I do use my HDHomeRun to record each game, and watch each one a few times. Unfortunately Rahim Moore is almost always off the screen. If he plays poor technique in deep-center field, I would never know it. He has improved his tackling technique dramatically in 2012, so that's all I have to go off of. He seems like he is taking the right mental approach, I like his accountability, and he has all the physical tools to succeed. He also had 10 INT's in college, so we know he has ability in coverage. With the Milus firing, my guess is the secondary hasn't been getting the best coaching. Still, I couldn't believe it when Moore missed that play.

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:06 PM   #58
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Datone Jones from UCLA looks real quick off the line. Okafor looks really good as well. Short looked good at DT, though from what I have seen so far Brandon Williams from Missouri Southern St. looks like a BEAST.

Brian Winters looks like he would be a real tough OG as would Long.
Brandon is a beast, I hope he shows up this week and ends up in the Orange and Blue...it worked out the last time we had a guy from Missouri Southern.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:20 PM   #59
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Why can't Moore play SS?
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:16 PM   #60
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Why can't Moore play SS?
I think he may be a better fit at SS.. His angles and technique at FS are atrocious.. But he would need to add some size at SS..Moore is small..maybe that's unfair cause he's only had two years of a professional strength and conditioning program, but I'm pretty well put together, and when I saw him I thought he could use 10 more pounds of muscle easy.. And maybe a position change would be beneficial..?
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:42 PM   #61
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[QUOTE=Mediator12;3786375]

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A lot of the OL and DL are also not showing up like in years past. WTF
You're right! IMO you can put the blame on agent's advice.
A good senior bowl performance can raise a 4th rnd prospect to the 2nd rnd even the first rnd. But the highly rated kids ,projected 1st or high 2nd rnd kids, if they have a bad game it can drop them like a rock.
1st rnd = BIG BUCKS.
2nd or 3rnd= not so many BUCKS, which makes agent cry like little babies.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:06 PM   #62
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Daniel Jeremiahs recap from the Souths team practice yesterday I guess I missed it highlighted these players of note: Lane Johnson OT from Oklahoma, says he has first round talent. Reminds him of a better Nate Solder. Said Robert Alford CB from Southeastern State jumped off the tape. Leon McFadden CB from San Diego State was very athletic and had a nice one handed pick. Last player was Vance McDonald TE from Rice. Said he was the best TE of the group. Said he moves around well.

Lane Johnson was a former QB FYI. Everyone talking says he is a number one pick.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:20 PM   #63
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Quinton Patton WR from Louisiana Tech looks good. Tavarres King WR looks really good. Runs great routes so far and lots of hand catches. Terrance Williams WR from Baylor is having a hard time with bigger CB's like Sanders Comming from Georgia. So far the three smaller school corner backs look scrappy. Robert Alford, Leon McFaden, and Phillip Thomas.

Vance McDonald does look good running routes he double catches the ball a lot though.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:31 PM   #64
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Lane Johnson OT from Oklahoma, says he has first round talent. Reminds him of a better Nate Solder.
How about a rookie LT anyone? Would save the Broncos a ton of $cratch...

All the chips are right there for the FO, all they have to do is manipulate them in the right way.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:36 PM   #65
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Jordan Miles? OT from Lou Tech stoned walled Ezekiel Ansah back to back one on one drills. Jordan Miles isn't listed.

Larry Warford OG from Kentucky is one of the favorite OG's for me. They said he fights well in the "phone booth". So far he is blocking really well. Pretty sure he was half beat if that make sense lol. Guy got passed him but it was way deep in the pocket. That was out of four snaps.

The Cal center Brian Schwenke plays with a mean streak but he is more of a zone blocker. Not sure how well that works for us. He looked good at OG as well though. Was beat once out of 4 center snaps and wasn't beat at OG in one on one drills.

Lane Johnson does look really good. Massive frame long arms and is rumored to run a 4.8 40 at over 300 pounds. Wasn't beat that I saw.


sgbfan Ansah is a guy they started talking about. Said he was really raw and they talked about how he has a lack of game plan on how to approach his attack. They said he should be a first rounder due to his upside but it might not be till late in the first round.

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Old 01-22-2013, 04:51 PM   #66
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MLB Vince Williams from Florida State blew up a pulling OG in the 11 on 11 drill. I'm watching him and he attacks the hole like a missile.

Stephan Taylor ran by Williams on the play he killed the OG though. He looked good running.

That was pretty much it. The recap will be on later so I will see what they have to say then
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:04 PM   #67
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CEH said that Denver interviewed Winters at the Senior Bowl.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:59 PM   #68
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Tonight's recap pretty much highlighted the players I talked about earlier. High praise for both LT's in Lane Johnson and Eric Fisher. Highlights showed Fisher stone walling Okafor twice.

They called Brian Schwenke a instant starter and a 10 year player. Kind of talked about him being a mid round pick.

David Quessenberry did well at RG and RT. Thought he could be a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Could be a OG option.

Kevin Reddick is doing well. They didn't say much about him other then he has been impressive since being here.

Jordan Poyer CB from Oregon State has been impressive on the short to intermediate stuff. Might struggle do deep stuff.

Desmond Trufant continues to shine. Press and man. Quick footed aggressive DB. Said had the DB swagger. The guy needs to be drafted by us.

Denard Robinson has struggled fielding punts and kick offs. Also is double catching the ball to much.

Quinton Patton is doing well according to the hosts. They didn't really get that much into him just saying that people that didn't know much about him are finding out he is the real deal.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:54 PM   #69
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Good to see Mike James get a late invite.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:30 AM   #70
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Per Scott Wright @ NFLDC -- Denver Broncos were seen talking to these players Tuesday:

EJ Manuel, QB
Zaviar Gooden, OLB
Michael Williams, TE
Dwayne Gratz, CB
Jonathan Cyprien, S
Markus Wheaton, WR

Some interesting prospects!
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:34 AM   #71
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Right now I have DT and TE as the most likely positions to be drafted in the 1st round. None of our TEs are difference makers, Tamme is decent but you really have to scheme to get him open and Dreesen is not really enough of a playmaker to be on the field so regularly. At DT we are very thin and the problem with relying on a heavy rotation is when teams go hurry-up they can isolate a matchup they like in either the run or pass game and run the ragged by not allowing replacements.

I like the depth at DT in the lower half of the 1st round, it fits us well with both 1- and 3-tech guys with decent pedigree and production. TE is a bit tricky to evaluate, right now the only guy I like is Ertz out of Stanford, he is atheltic, a good catcher and has outstanding size, but he doesn't quite feel like a Gronkowski, Hernandez, Gonzalez or Graham type of player, more along the line of a Gresham who is not quite as good a blocker.

CB in round 1 is out, S is a possibility but I don't buy it. Clady will be back so there is no reason to draft OL in round 1 unless someone falls dramatically. MLB is a real possibility depending what happens in FA and where we go with DJ and Mays. I think it is fair to say that Miller and Woodyard have the OLB positions locked up currently.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:39 AM   #72
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Tonight's recap pretty much highlighted the players I talked about earlier. High praise for both LT's in Lane Johnson and Eric Fisher. Highlights showed Fisher stone walling Okafor twice.

They called Brian Schwenke a instant starter and a 10 year player. Kind of talked about him being a mid round pick.

David Quessenberry did well at RG and RT. Thought he could be a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Could be a OG option.

Kevin Reddick is doing well. They didn't say much about him other then he has been impressive since being here.

Jordan Poyer CB from Oregon State has been impressive on the short to intermediate stuff. Might struggle do deep stuff.

Desmond Trufant continues to shine. Press and man. Quick footed aggressive DB. Said had the DB swagger. The guy needs to be drafted by us.

Denard Robinson has struggled fielding punts and kick offs. Also is double catching the ball to much.

Quinton Patton is doing well according to the hosts. They didn't really get that much into him just saying that people that didn't know much about him are finding out he is the real deal.
All the tape that I have seen on Poyer and Trufant would suggest the opposite to me. To me, Trufant made some dumb mistakes and would pay for them. Poyer has great athleticism, and seems to have some football smarts.
So I would love for Denver to draft Poyer over Trufant.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:49 AM   #73
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Right now I have DT and TE as the most likely positions to be drafted in the 1st round. None of our TEs are difference makers, Tamme is decent but you really have to scheme to get him open and Dreesen is not really enough of a playmaker to be on the field so regularly. At DT we are very thin and the problem with relying on a heavy rotation is when teams go hurry-up they can isolate a matchup they like in either the run or pass game and run the ragged by not allowing replacements.

I like the depth at DT in the lower half of the 1st round, it fits us well with both 1- and 3-tech guys with decent pedigree and production. TE is a bit tricky to evaluate, right now the only guy I like is Ertz out of Stanford, he is atheltic, a good catcher and has outstanding size, but he doesn't quite feel like a Gronkowski, Hernandez, Gonzalez or Graham type of player, more along the line of a Gresham who is not quite as good a blocker.

CB in round 1 is out, S is a possibility but I don't buy it. Clady will be back so there is no reason to draft OL in round 1 unless someone falls dramatically. MLB is a real possibility depending what happens in FA and where we go with DJ and Mays. I think it is fair to say that Miller and Woodyard have the OLB positions locked up currently.
Tamme and Dreesen are fine for right now. This is not the kind of draft where you toss your top pick out on a TE. Would be depressed if that happened.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:54 AM   #74
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Spencer Larsen
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Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
Tamme and Dreesen are fine for right now. This is not the kind of draft where you toss your top pick out on a TE. Would be depressed if that happened.
For better or worse we have to upgrade the team as much as possible, depending what happens in FA, I think TE is the logical pick. We are in the lower reaches of the 1st round, so we are not getting a top CB, OT, DE - those guys will be drafted in the top half of the 1st round. DT is a valid option and I think we could go that way. MLB is difficult to predict, lately we have seen an emphasis on the MLB position early in the 1st round which may take the top 2 or 3 candidates out of our reach. TE has become a power position in the NFL as more and more offenses are abandoning the FB position, having a TE who can consistently be used to create mismatches against LBs and CBs is very powerful, look at the playoffs this year, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Gonzalez, Vernon Davies all made it to the conference championship round.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:03 AM   #75
Bmore Manning
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I don't want us to draft an early TE, but I must agree that I do not like Tamme or Dreesen both. Dreesen can at least block and Tamme offers next to nothing in terms of athleticism.. But, I think Green and hopefully Thomas will be involved more next season where they would replace the average duo next offseason..?
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