The Way We Penalize Pass Interference - The Orange Mane

SonOfLe-loLang · 01-16-2013, 09:33 AM

I've long thought about the oddity of the pass interference penalty, but have considered it more in light of Saturday's game.

The defensive PI penalty is the most powerful in the game, since it could technically be a 99 yard penalty if the QB had a strong enough arm, but there seems to be no consistency to when it's called, and often the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Many times, they are game changers. Would you guys consider one of the following:

1) Two different PI calls: a 15 yard penalty for the vast majority of PI (as college does). But giving the refs the right to call a spot foul if the defender is purposely trying to impede the receiver (lets say a guy gets beat and he purposely drags him down. Think like how a basketball ref determines a flagrant foul. Obviously this gives the already suspect refs MORE leeway to decide, but the spot foul would only be used in extreme cases, and would be a deterrant to guys who purposely PI to disrupt a catch.

2) Make PI reviewable: If you can review a spot that might move the ball 5 inches for a first down, why not review a penalty that moves the ball 25 yards on a third down? Football is a fast paced game and, considering refs are only human, they are bound to make mistakes on this prohibitive, game changing penalty. Denver could have used this a few times during the last game. If Pass Interference is truly clear, like a ref will tell you, with no grey area, then it should be easier to see on replay. I would even allow it for both called and uncalled. I know human error is part of the game, but if the goal is fairness, this should be considered. Its not like it'll slow the game down any either.

swaiy · 01-16-2013, 09:37 AM

It's a slippery slope when you start talking about reviewing penalties. I think it should be like college. If the guy comes down with the ball, obviously you decline. If not, take the 15 yards.

SonOfLe-loLang · 01-16-2013, 10:09 AM

I dont think its a slippery slope. Its already a unique penalty. Why not give it some protection?

LetsGoBroncos · 01-16-2013, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang

I dont think its a slippery slope. Its already a unique penalty. Why not give it some protection?

I would love for it to be reviewable, problem is some of them are so judgemental like face guarding and stuff. But ya, there were about 4 on Saturday that would have been overturned if you could review them. Decker, Decker again, Hester, Bailey.

Carter's was iffy, probably shouldn't have been called. ABSOLUTELY shoudn't have been called if they weren't going to call the ones on Decker

MplsBronco · 01-16-2013, 11:00 AM

This has been debated here before. I should without a doubt be treated like it does in college. 15 yards if beyond 15 and spot foul if under 15 yard. The 30, 40, 50 yard BS is not fair especially when you consider how inconsistently it is called.

Most assuredly we will get people in here who will make asinine arguments that if a 15 yard penalty then dbs will be committing PI on purpose when they are beat.

But that is such a stupid argument because if they are beat that bad they aren't in a position to commit PI. This isn't an issue in the college game.

ZONA · 01-16-2013, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MplsBronco

This has been debated here before. I should without a doubt be treated like it does in college. 15 yards if beyond 15 and spot foul if under 15 yard. The 30, 40, 50 yard BS is not fair especially when you consider how inconsistently it is called.

Most assuredly we will get people in here who will make asinine arguments that if a 15 yard penalty then dbs will be committing PI on purpose when they are beat.

But that is such a stupid argument because if they are beat that bad they aren't in a position to commit PI. This isn't an issue in the college game.

I sorta like where you're going but 15 yards is not enough penalty. I think 25 yards is a better fit for the pro game. Anything under 25 yards is a spot foul and anything over is max 25 yards. The NFL is a pass happy league and they want scoring to be very high, it's what makes most fans happy. They will never change this rule. The last thing they want is to have CB's even think about a PI call on a huge play knowing the max penalty is only 15 yards.

MplsBronco · 01-16-2013, 11:22 AM

15 yards is the max for the most egregious penalties, roughing the passer, facemask, unnecessary roughness. 15 should be the max for PI. It is a sufficient enough penalty.

jmz313 · 01-16-2013, 11:27 AM

I think its fine enforcement wise. I just feel they skewed the rules to favor the receivers too much. Maybe look into letting the DBs play too (like 10 years ago).

gyldenlove · 01-16-2013, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MplsBronco

15 yards is the max for the most egregious penalties, roughing the passer, facemask, unnecessary roughness. 15 should be the max for PI. It is a sufficient enough penalty.

Why? that would kill all long passes. I am a defender covering a receiver 1 on 1, the receiver runs a long route I am just going to dive at his legs, take the 15 and move on. At worst I took 15 yards when the pass would have been incomplete, at best I replaced a TD with 15 yards and a 1st down.

No other penalty in the game has the same potential to take away a big play, so this one should be harsher than all the others.

SonOfLe-loLang · 01-16-2013, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

Why? that would kill all long passes. I am a defender covering a receiver 1 on 1, the receiver runs a long route I am just going to dive at his legs, take the 15 and move on. At worst I took 15 yards when the pass would have been incomplete, at best I replaced a TD with 15 yards and a 1st down.

No other penalty in the game has the same potential to take away a big play, so this one should be harsher than all the others.

This doesn't really happen in the college game though. But that's why i think a version of the "flagrant foul" might not be the worst idea. Or make them reviewable. I'd be open to that

MplsBronco · 01-16-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

Why? that would kill all long passes. I am a defender covering a receiver 1 on 1, the receiver runs a long route I am just going to dive at his legs, take the 15 and move on. At worst I took 15 yards when the pass would have been incomplete, at best I replaced a TD with 15 yards and a 1st down.

No other penalty in the game has the same potential to take away a big play, so this one should be harsher than all the others.

Here we go. Go ahead, do that when its 3rd and 10. Give me a first down. Get your ass benched.

Crushaholic · 01-16-2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MplsBronco

15 yards is the max for the most egregious penalties, roughing the passer, facemask, unnecessary roughness. 15 should be the max for PI. It is a sufficient enough penalty.

I could see that rule being abused, CONSTANTLY, then. Let's take the Rahim Moore example. If he just decided to takedown the receiver, and the penalty was only 15 yards, the Ravens may not have found the end zone...

SonOfLe-loLang · 01-16-2013, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crushaholic

I could see that rule being abused, CONSTANTLY, then. Let's take the Rahim Moore example. If he just decided to takedown the receiver, and the penalty was only 15 yards, the Ravens may not have found the end zone...

Well, unfortunately Rahim was looking up and backpeddling, nothing would have helped him then.

bronco_diesel · 01-16-2013, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crushaholic

I could see that rule being abused, CONSTANTLY, then. Let's take the Rahim Moore example. If he just decided to takedown the receiver, and the penalty was only 15 yards, the Ravens may not have found the end zone...

Well, offenses take advantage of how the rule is now.

I don't know if a 15 yard max penalty is the solution either.

I also like aspects of a review and dislike aspects of a review for this particular penalty.

I think this boils down to "how do you limit the human element which can result in a bad call"

I think they should probably just tighten up the rule a bit more to take away an offensive advantage. For example, if the defender is positioned between the player and the ball and the offensive player initiates contact, no flag. But if the defender initiates contact, it's called.

Personally, I don't think it should be called for any underthrown ball...only when a defender egregiously fouls the offensive player.

broncosteven · 01-16-2013, 02:20 PM

I think the Decker no call PI should have been reviewed.

I think you should be able to review a foul that was not called especially with the they replay system we have now.

It might be more convoluted to review a called penalty to see if there was a foul but getting that Decker PI wrong gave the Ravens the lead in a close game it totally impacted the outcome.

Kaylore · 01-16-2013, 03:00 PM

Gruden thinks penalties should be reviewed.

SonOfLe-loLang · 01-16-2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Gruden thinks penalties should be reviewed.

I'm not against it, to be honest. If thats how you want to use a challenge, then go ahead. Though i'd never challenge a holding play. There's holding on every play in the NFL.

Atwater His Ass · 01-16-2013, 05:53 PM

No to review. Games already take way way way too long to play. Adding more downtime by default is ridiculous.

Replays need to be less, not more. Also no to reviewing penalties in general. Bad idea. The fix for some of the bull**** that happened in the Baltimore game is to stop this ridiculous idea of making "all-star" officiating crews and somehow expect them to be consistent and work well together in the biggest games of the year. The league should rate crews as a whole (probably already do) and then promote those crews that have been together the entire year to do the playoff games.

Yes to removing the spot foul. I don't like 15 yards either. Make it a 10 yard penalty, automatic first down. If you purposely and flagarantly PI down field, make that one a spot foul and perhaps even an ejection for unsportsmanlike conduct if the situation warrants it.

gyldenlove · 01-16-2013, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MplsBronco

Here we go. Go ahead, do that when its 3rd and 10. Give me a first down. Get your ass benched.

I would do that on 1st and 10 when people take a shot down field, 15 yards is a lot better than 65 and a TD.

gyldenlove · 01-16-2013, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang

This doesn't really happen in the college game though. But that's why i think a version of the "flagrant foul" might not be the worst idea. Or make them reviewable. I'd be open to that

A lot of things do not really happen in the college game that happen in the NFL and vice versa. After they changed the force out rule in the NFL we saw several examples of poor tackling where CBs were basically carrying receivers out of bounds on jump balls. Rule changes to affect the way the game is played and while I don't think it would be an every day occurrence, making PI a 15 yard penalty would bring about some deliberate interference in certain situations when a guy knows he is beat.

I don't like making penalties reviewable, it doesn't really help. What is the refs decide it wasn't PI but holding or illegal contact or hands to the face? those would not be reviewable and thus even though a flag was missed you won't get the call. If you make all penalties, called and not called, reviewable you are going to extend games through long reviews and especially under the 2 minute warning or overtime when all reviews have to come from the booth, it could get really messy.

ScottXray · 01-17-2013, 06:53 AM

I think that special rules for Playoff games might be considered here, but in general thsi could be fixed.

All turnovers are already automatically reiewed. Give the replay official the ability to call a PI or other penalty in cases like the Decker pick 6. Overturn the pick and give the offense the ball back with a first down.

There was clear PI there, but not called on the field. The Bang -bang play excuse given during the game then would not come into play. Decker was hit with the ball in the air and clearly before the ball arrived. The PI definitely resulted in the turnover, and it should have been overturned.

This also would have allowed the Replay official to oveturn the result in the Seattle Green Bay game early in the year. Tate would have been called for offensive PI on the hail mary for throwing a defender out of the way, to get position for the reception.

As far as PI in general, I agree that the penalty should be a max 15-25 yard penalty. Spot foul up to 25 yards. If a player is doing it on purpose repeatedly, then tack 15 on for a personal foul also.

But if you are going to stick with a spot foul ( and the possibility of a 50-60 yard penalty) then the replay official should be able to drop a flag on either teams principals in the play. All scoring or over 15 yard PIs should be reviewed.

BroncoBeavis · 01-17-2013, 07:25 AM

I think we should revert to college-like rules on PI.

If you think about it, most truly legit PI happens in short to intermediate yardage, where a fixed penalty (and first down) would be enough. On longer throws, PI calls are usually the result of a QB throwing into coverage, or if the receiver is truly open, underthrowing him.

Yeah, there are a few exceptions here and there. But not enough to outweigh the injustice that happens every time a ****ty throw is rewarded with the assumption it would've been completed.

MplsBronco · 01-17-2013, 07:46 AM

The fact is, a single penalty that is subject to so much interpretation and is called so inconsistently should not be such a potential game changer. Teams should never be gifter 50, 60 yards on a penalty. You could argue defensive holding prevents huge plays yet that is just a 5 yard penalty. Guys hold all the time when beat on a double move as an example. Its stupid to continue on this way and its stupid to think guys will be automatically committing PI on puprose. Their first instinct to prevent the completion, without fouling, and perhaps picking up an INT. And again, it they are beat so badly they aren't in a position to commit PI.

SonOfLe-loLang · 01-17-2013, 08:18 AM

I don't get this "extending games" argument. You have challenges, the number of said challenges don't increase, and turnovers are reviewed anyway.

And I think the PI penalty is a special breed because it can technically be a 90 yard penalty. If I'm giving up 50 yards on a bull**** call, it should be reviewed.

01-16-2013, 09:33 AM	#1
SonOfLe-loLang Young Buck Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,228 Adopt-a-Bronco: Thunder (RIP)	The Way We Penalize Pass Interference I've long thought about the oddity of the pass interference penalty, but have considered it more in light of Saturday's game. The defensive PI penalty is the most powerful in the game, since it could technically be a 99 yard penalty if the QB had a strong enough arm, but there seems to be no consistency to when it's called, and often the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Many times, they are game changers. Would you guys consider one of the following: 1) Two different PI calls: a 15 yard penalty for the vast majority of PI (as college does). But giving the refs the right to call a spot foul if the defender is purposely trying to impede the receiver (lets say a guy gets beat and he purposely drags him down. Think like how a basketball ref determines a flagrant foul. Obviously this gives the already suspect refs MORE leeway to decide, but the spot foul would only be used in extreme cases, and would be a deterrant to guys who purposely PI to disrupt a catch. 2) Make PI reviewable: If you can review a spot that might move the ball 5 inches for a first down, why not review a penalty that moves the ball 25 yards on a third down? Football is a fast paced game and, considering refs are only human, they are bound to make mistakes on this prohibitive, game changing penalty. Denver could have used this a few times during the last game. If Pass Interference is truly clear, like a ref will tell you, with no grey area, then it should be easier to see on replay. I would even allow it for both called and uncalled. I know human error is part of the game, but if the goal is fairness, this should be considered. Its not like it'll slow the game down any either.

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01-16-2013, 09:37 AM	#2
swaiy Ring of Famer Next time I'll be deadly serious Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 1,333 Adopt-a-Bronco: DT88	It's a slippery slope when you start talking about reviewing penalties. I think it should be like college. If the guy comes down with the ball, obviously you decline. If not, take the 15 yards.

01-16-2013, 10:09 AM	#3
SonOfLe-loLang Young Buck Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,228 Adopt-a-Bronco: Thunder (RIP)	I dont think its a slippery slope. Its already a unique penalty. Why not give it some protection?

01-16-2013, 11:00 AM	#5
MplsBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 1,623	This has been debated here before. I should without a doubt be treated like it does in college. 15 yards if beyond 15 and spot foul if under 15 yard. The 30, 40, 50 yard BS is not fair especially when you consider how inconsistently it is called. Most assuredly we will get people in here who will make asinine arguments that if a 15 yard penalty then dbs will be committing PI on purpose when they are beat. But that is such a stupid argument because if they are beat that bad they aren't in a position to commit PI. This isn't an issue in the college game.

01-16-2013, 11:22 AM	#7
MplsBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 1,623	15 yards is the max for the most egregious penalties, roughing the passer, facemask, unnecessary roughness. 15 should be the max for PI. It is a sufficient enough penalty.

01-16-2013, 11:27 AM	#8
jmz313 Perennial Pro-bowler Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 982	I think its fine enforcement wise. I just feel they skewed the rules to favor the receivers too much. Maybe look into letting the DBs play too (like 10 years ago).

01-16-2013, 02:20 PM	#15
broncosteven The Kranz Dictum MWA: Flight Director Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 29,056 Adopt-a-Bronco: MONEYBALL #38	I think the Decker no call PI should have been reviewed. I think you should be able to review a foul that was not called especially with the they replay system we have now. It might be more convoluted to review a called penalty to see if there was a foul but getting that Decker PI wrong gave the Ravens the lead in a close game it totally impacted the outcome.

01-16-2013, 03:00 PM	#16
Kaylore 6-37, Raider fans. Yummy birds and snow! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ceti Alpha V Posts: 41,061 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wesley Duke	Gruden thinks penalties should be reviewed.

01-16-2013, 05:53 PM	#18
Atwater His Ass Ring of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 5,362 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	No to review. Games already take way way way too long to play. Adding more downtime by default is ridiculous. Replays need to be less, not more. Also no to reviewing penalties in general. Bad idea. The fix for some of the bull**** that happened in the Baltimore game is to stop this ridiculous idea of making "all-star" officiating crews and somehow expect them to be consistent and work well together in the biggest games of the year. The league should rate crews as a whole (probably already do) and then promote those crews that have been together the entire year to do the playoff games. Yes to removing the spot foul. I don't like 15 yards either. Make it a 10 yard penalty, automatic first down. If you purposely and flagarantly PI down field, make that one a spot foul and perhaps even an ejection for unsportsmanlike conduct if the situation warrants it.

01-17-2013, 06:53 AM	#21
ScottXray Opinionated A**** Love Me some PANCAKES!** Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: PDX (Portland OR) Posts: 4,663 Adopt-a-Bronco: J. D. Walton	I think that special rules for Playoff games might be considered here, but in general thsi could be fixed. All turnovers are already automatically reiewed. Give the replay official the ability to call a PI or other penalty in cases like the Decker pick 6. Overturn the pick and give the offense the ball back with a first down. There was clear PI there, but not called on the field. The Bang -bang play excuse given during the game then would not come into play. Decker was hit with the ball in the air and clearly before the ball arrived. The PI definitely resulted in the turnover, and it should have been overturned. This also would have allowed the Replay official to oveturn the result in the Seattle Green Bay game early in the year. Tate would have been called for offensive PI on the hail mary for throwing a defender out of the way, to get position for the reception. As far as PI in general, I agree that the penalty should be a max 15-25 yard penalty. Spot foul up to 25 yards. If a player is doing it on purpose repeatedly, then tack 15 on for a personal foul also. But if you are going to stick with a spot foul ( and the possibility of a 50-60 yard penalty) then the replay official should be able to drop a flag on either teams principals in the play. All scoring or over 15 yard PIs should be reviewed.

01-17-2013, 07:25 AM	#22
BroncoBeavis Just Draughted Lupus Methylphenthylaminus? Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,919	I think we should revert to college-like rules on PI. If you think about it, most truly legit PI happens in short to intermediate yardage, where a fixed penalty (and first down) would be enough. On longer throws, PI calls are usually the result of a QB throwing into coverage, or if the receiver is truly open, underthrowing him. Yeah, there are a few exceptions here and there. But not enough to outweigh the injustice that happens every time a ****ty throw is rewarded with the assumption it would've been completed.

01-17-2013, 07:46 AM	#23
MplsBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 1,623	The fact is, a single penalty that is subject to so much interpretation and is called so inconsistently should not be such a potential game changer. Teams should never be gifter 50, 60 yards on a penalty. You could argue defensive holding prevents huge plays yet that is just a 5 yard penalty. Guys hold all the time when beat on a double move as an example. Its stupid to continue on this way and its stupid to think guys will be automatically committing PI on puprose. Their first instinct to prevent the completion, without fouling, and perhaps picking up an INT. And again, it they are beat so badly they aren't in a position to commit PI.

01-17-2013, 08:18 AM	#24
SonOfLe-loLang Young Buck Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,228 Adopt-a-Bronco: Thunder (RIP)	I don't get this "extending games" argument. You have challenges, the number of said challenges don't increase, and turnovers are reviewed anyway. And I think the PI penalty is a special breed because it can technically be a 90 yard penalty. If I'm giving up 50 yards on a bull**** call, it should be reviewed.